"Generic" GH ASSAYS

[jJjburton]

Yea I agree the number of IU's are not what the vials state them to be. Hello hello hello is anyone surprised? I told you guys this will be the case with generics long ago and that's WHY such testing needs to be done.

HOWEVER, let me make a suggestion before you fellas list a product as "good or bad" based purely on the number of IU's, it sure would help if you KNEW the cost relative to PHARM GH and compared them on a DOLLAR/IU basis!

true but there are good deals out there. Also there is a number that says percent of stuff in the bottle. And one is high at 80 percent, which means there's a bunch of shit in there someone taking it, doesn't know about. With the other there is 30 percent of "stuff" in the vial. WTF is "stuff"?

This is what Originally wrote^ which DRJim said I was wrong. I was, I wrote the above wrong. It says.Total mg of stuff in bottle=31.6 wheighed and amount taken to it. Which doesnt sounds good. Or is IT?

 

[Dr JIM]

Haste makes waste and misidentifying these samples can cause MORE harm than good, especially for those who enter this thread at a later date.

I'm not sure which is which and I now is not the time to guess!

 

[jJjburton]

Haste makes waste and misidentifying these samples can cause MORE harm than good, especially for those who enter this thread at a later date.

I'm not sure which is which and I now is not the time to guess!

I messed up, is that edit write? I will hold off looking at the data I just want to understand it better.

 

[Dr JIM]

The "stuff" are inert ingredients such as buffers, emulsifiers and fillers that every GH product must have including pharm. They are not toxins, heavy metals or whatever.

Otherwise the "stuff" is an UNKNOWN bc it does not dissolve like Amino Acids and falls down the drain. To that end the amount of money one could spend on "stuff" would readily exceed what is already being spent bc the required methodologies are much different. AND their identification would NOT alter what the testing is being conducted for HOW MANY IU's are in each vial!

Focus on the IU's bc that's what matters OR can be assayed for using an AAA. Otherwise use PHARM GH and that's always been my position BUT ….

Did you notice all the GLYCINE IN sample THREE? Pretty common "stuff" in generic Gh IME, not sure why there is such an overabundance BUT it's presence can create problems with HPLC assays!

 

[puckhog]

Focus on the IU's bc that's what matters OR can be assayed for using an AAA. Otherwise use PHARM GH and that's always been my position BUT ….

Can you tell us what pharm gh numbers would look like as far as iu's? I am ignorant to these numbers, my apologies.

 

[jJjburton]

Can you tell us what pharm gh numbers would look like as far as iu's? I am ignorant to these numbers, my apologies.

I think it depends on how much iu's are in the vial, or what is stated is in the vial. If a Genopen say 12 mg and they test it, then it would have 36 iu's, Which is how it's state, on the pen.
So each of these vials are suppose to have 10 iu's.

 

[rpbb]

Thanks Dr J and mands

 

[Dr JIM]

Can you tell us what pharm gh numbers would look like as far as iu's? I am ignorant to these numbers, my apologies.

That's like asking how many MG are in a vial of TT, it depends upon the manufacturer and is listed on every PHARM GH VIAL.

The difference of course is what is listed on a PHARM rHGH vial MUST be accurate within the 98% percentile!

So if a pharm GH vial says it contains 36 IU it WILL contain at LEAST 35 IU!

 

[ProfessorX]

Question Jim:

We've seen some of the Generics cause 'red welts'. Not from "mis-pinning"....but consistent from vial to vial. I cringe when the answer is to inject IM

Have you any experience in testing for BacteriaEndotoxins:

Levels to 0.5 EU/µg or less

According the specification of Pharmacopoeia of the People's Republic of China (2000 Edition) and European Pharmacopoeia 5.0, the content of bacterial endotoxins should be no more than 5 EU.

SIMEC could not test for this

The U.S. Protein Lab I've used could.....but too much time and $ to set all that up

Similar to this:

Endotoxin Testing Analysis and Removal - Bio-Synthesis, Inc.

I think this is an import part of the "purification process" in manufacturing GH

 

[Dr JIM]

I.
So each of these vials are suppose to have 10 iu's.

CORRECT! As I mentioned a while back "TEN IU/VIAL has become the UGL standard. I suspect this is done by UGLs to make dosage calculations easier on behalf of GH users.

Rest assured MANDS and/or I will let Meso members know if the quantity is any different.

 

[ProfessorX]

CORRECT! As I mentioned a while back "TEN IU/VIAL has become the UGL standard. I suspect this is done by UGLs to make dosage calculations easier on behalf of GH users.

Rest assured MANDS and/or I will let Meso members know if the quantity is any different.

I read your unedited response.

Something about SEPSIS and me being a fool.?? What da?!

Not sure why you responded that way. Maybe it was a simple misunderstanding.

My understanding is:

Bacterial residue:

Painful red welts on injection spot can be caused by low quality growth hormone which contain too much bacterial residue. This can lead to serious problems where the body could eventually develop resistance even against its own naturally produced growth hormone.

Occasional painful welts can happen from time to time with somatropin (if you hit an awkward spot). If the welts appear after every injection and persist for a day or two, then you should discontinue the cycle immediately and have a sample lab tested.

The European Pharmacopoeia (Pharmacopoeia Europaea, Ph. Eur)

BACTERIA ENDOTOXINS TEST
BacteriaEndotoxins:
To assay the amount of bacteria endotoxins .
The More bacteria endotoxins present will increase the adverse and toxic effects of the rhGH.
Results:
According the specification of Pharmacopoeia of the People's Republic of China (2000 Edition) and European Pharmacopoeia 5.0, the content of bacterial endotoxins should be no more than 5 EU.
ELISA - TEST OF E.COLI DERIVED PROTEIN
The more the host-cell-derived (E.coli) proteins present, the more toxic and adverse effects there will be caused.

I was simply asking if you were familiar with this type of testing:

Endotoxin Testing Analysis and Removal - Bio-Synthesis, Inc.

I have not, nor have I seen anyone else testing Generics for this

It could be an important "add-on" in addition to identify and quantify

As I stated before , I was going to have the U.S. lab I've used in the past set up for this type of testing.....but Ive not done any recent testing as I've made up my mine to stay with Legit US PHARMA GH or Legit China PHARMA GH

 

[Dr JIM]

Question Jim:

We've seen some of the Generics cause 'red welts'. Not from "mis-pinning"....but consistent from vial to vial. I cringe when the answer is to inject IM

Have you any experience in testing for BacteriaEndotoxins:

Levels to 0.5 EU/µg or less

According the specification of Pharmacopoeia of the People's Republic of China (2000 Edition) and European Pharmacopoeia 5.0, the content of bacterial endotoxins should be no more than 5 EU.

SIMEC could not test for this

The U.S. Protein Lab I've used could.....but too much time and $ to set all that up

Similar to this:

Endotoxin Testing Analysis and Removal - Bio-Synthesis, Inc.

I think this is an import part of the "purification process" in manufacturing GH

Endotoxins are responsible for what is referred to in general as the "Sepsis Syndrome" which includes a variety of focal and systemic clinical signs and symptoms.

\While one of the earlier manifestations of this condition may include a skin rash it rarely ENDS THERE as many of these patients DIE.

Consequently I suspect many of the FOCAL dermatological changes which some GH users experience, a few which I've seen, are the result of an incomplete postproduction purification process. The net effect is the presence of aberrant poly-peptides, of sufficient size and/or quantity that results in a focal "allergic reaction".

(Also the fact many generic GH samples contain grossly excessive amounts of Glycine, a common by-product of the E-coli cleavage process, suggests a level of permissibility
NOT acceptable by Pharm GH standards IMO)

I suggest this for good reason, bc the dermatological changes or "reaction" are almost identical to that which is noted in patients who test POSITIVE for certain allergies using
RAST methodology. The latter uses minute quantities of a PROTEIN extract derived from
any number of common allergens such as peanuts, strawberries, shell fish etc.

But, have I ever conducted or been involved with endo-toxin research nope

 

[Mr.B66]

After seeing these results, to say I'm surprised and disappointed is an understatement. I really thought that at worst, they would test at 50% label claim.
Pharm grade it is not!!!!!

 

[Dr JIM]

All is NOT lost I've SEVEN more I've not had a chance to review yet and hopefully many more will follow.

The idea being at least you fellas will have a much better idea what your buying and heck if we can dump a few scammers like GotNothing along the way all the better, IMO!

 

[ProfessorX]

Endotoxins are responsible for what is referred to in general as the "Sepsis Syndrome" which includes a variety of focal and systemic clinical signs and symptoms.

\While one of the earlier manifestations of this condition may include a skin rash it rarely ENDS THERE as many of these patients DIE.

Consequently I suspect many of the FOCAL dermatological changes which some GH users experience, a few which I've seen, are the result of an incomplete postproduction purification process. The net effect is the presence of aberrant poly-peptides, of sufficient size and/or quantity that results in a focal "allergic reaction".

(Also the fact many generic GH samples contain grossly excessive amounts of Glycine, a common by-product of the E-coli cleavage process, suggests a level of permissibility
NOT acceptable by Pharm GH standards IMO)

I suggest this for good reason, bc the dermatological changes or "reaction" are almost identical to that which is noted in patients who test POSITIVE for certain allergies using
RAST methodology. The latter uses minute quantities of a PROTEIN extract derived from
any number of common allergens such as peanuts, strawberries, shell fish etc.

But, have I ever conducted or been involved with endo-toxin research nope

Example of what I was getting at:

Endotoxin: <5 EU/µg

http://www.nuptec.com/products_show.asp?pro_id=17

European Pharmacopoeia 5.0, the content of bacterial endotoxins should be no more than 5 EU. (5 EU/µg)

Thanks for the response

 

[Dr JIM]

Example of what I was getting at:

Endotoxin: <5 EU/µg

http://www.nuptec.com/products_show.asp?pro_id=17

European Pharmacopoeia 5.0, the content of bacterial endotoxins should be no more than 5 EU. (5 EU/µg)

Thanks for the response

Heres the problem; how is/was an endotoxin defined?

I ask bc many E-T require the presence of other substances such as compliment, platelets, hematologic factors etc to elicit
the hemodynamic or clinical features common to sepsis syndrome.

Much like ones TT level alone is not particularly useful in the majority of folk with suppressed libido the same applies to "endotoxin levels" in those with sepsis syndrome.

 

[Dr JIM]

Example of what I was getting at:

Endotoxin: <5 EU/µg

http://www.nuptec.com/products_show.asp?pro_id=17

European Pharmacopoeia 5.0, the content of bacterial endotoxins should be no more than 5 EU. (5 EU/µg)

Thanks for the response

Yea but THAT is "research grade" rHGH and is NOT intended for human consumption!

Rather than measuring a somewhat arbitrary "toxin" the WHO/FDA criteria goes much further and insists BIOLOGICAL testing be conducted.

The latter requires the testing of
GH in LIVING CRITTERS and any unexplained death or complication must be verified and certified as an expected outcome!

The frequency of such events must also be collated, tabulated, recorded and then compared to similar products with an established "safety and adverse event" record.

If the deviation is considered "a significant deviation from the norm" it's back to the drawing board for the manufacturer who must determine WHY their GH didn't fare as well before such a product is deemed safe for human consumption.

All of these issues make the purchase of generic GH somewhat of a crap shoot compared to a Pharm product and are one of several factors the tests I've conducted can't even begin to evaluate.

To that end there is no comparing the saftery of generic GH to that of Pharm GH, as the list of UNKNOWNs for the former remains extensive IMO.

 

[ickyrica]

The questions I have at this point is if the Grey's are underdosed, the othe ugl hgh must have people in serious discomfort, right? More than what the greys would bring to the table, correct? Is there anybody following this thread that is using the other tested hgh? If so, how are your sides? Can additives be used to mimic the sides of hgh?

I'm sorry for asking so many rookie questions here...

 

[legendary]

The questions I have at this point is if the Grey's are underdosed, the othe ugl hgh must have people in serious discomfort, right? More than what the greys would bring to the table, correct? Is their anybody following this thread that is using the other tested hgh? If so, how are your sides? Can additives be used to mimic the sides of hgh?

I'm sorry for asking so many rookie questions here...

I have read and also I believe Jim stated they can add something to create the neuropathy feeling. I'm not 100% sure if Jim said that but I know I have read it.

 

[DickySmalls]

That's like asking how many MG are in a vial of TT, it depends upon the manufacturer and is listed on every PHARM GH VIAL.

The difference of course is what is listed on a PHARM rHGH vial MUST be accurate within the 98% percentile!

So if a pharm GH vial says it contains 36 IU it WILL contain at LEAST 35 IU!

Might be more of a question for @mands or may have already been answered but will you be testing a vial of Serostim as a control sample?