Grapefruit vs. Hematocrit

[DECLAN]

Nope. Do you have a link?

Just search his posts in instagram.

View: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cr3wcgXPe3v/?igsh=ZDE1MWVjZGVmZQ==

 

[readalot]

Just search his posts in instagram.

View: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cr3wcgXPe3v/?igsh=ZDE1MWVjZGVmZQ==

Ah yes, the good ole altitude hand wave.

Tread carefully.

Excel Male TRT Forum

The Most Respected Testosterone TRT Men's Health Forum Since 2013

www.excelmale.com

Is it true that an elevated hematocrit level on TRT does not require blood donation?

You obviously post but don't really read anything that you post including the literature. I just sent you a quote from Abraham Morgenthaler that I have actually tape recorded. It is from April of this year he has changed his stance or did you not catch that with my previous explanation. You...

www.excelmale.com

 

[DECLAN]

Ah yes, the good ole altitude hand wave.

Tread carefully.

Excel Male TRT Forum

The Most Respected Testosterone TRT Men's Health Forum Since 2013

www.excelmale.com

Is it true that an elevated hematocrit level on TRT does not require blood donation?

You obviously post but don't really read anything that you post including the literature. I just sent you a quote from Abraham Morgenthaler that I have actually tape recorded. It is from April of this year he has changed his stance or did you not catch that with my previous explanation. You...

www.excelmale.com

I don’t understand your posts sometimes. Care to elaborate your contribution or experience instead.

 

[readalot]

elaborate your contribution

About as elaborate as I can possibly be. Just click and read. At your fingertips. But it takes more work to study and learn than giving people a false sense of confidence with a hand wave.

And no disrespect to you. It is the "guru" that is the object of my scorn. That dude has no business sharing that irresponsible message.

The primary concern of elevated Hct is and never was clotting. Plasma viscosity plus Hct determines whole blood viscosity. Extra Wear and Tear.

 

[PaintDrinker]

Naringin is the active compound in grapefruit that’s responsible for disposing RBC’s. It’s much easier to take a Naringin supplement, that’s what I do. Hope this maybe be helpful.

 

[SuperJew]

About as elaborate as I can possibly be. Just click and read. At your fingertips. But it takes more work to study and learn than giving people a false sense of confidence with a hand wave.

And no disrespect to you. It is the "guru" that is the object of my scorn. That dude has no business sharing that irresponsible message.

The primary concern of elevated Hct is and never was clotting. Plasma viscosity plus Hct determines whole blood viscosity. Extra Wear and Tear.

Fair, but Dante is using a medically recognized number for his argument. The values vary wildly from lab to lab or organization to organization. But there are many that have a range up to 18 hemoglobin for men. (I always use my hemoglobin, just because the hematocrit is so heavily influenced by hydration ) Anyway, 18/54 isn't a crazy number. Now, I certainly wouldn't be just letting it go sky fucking high like these TRT "gurus" on Youtube advocate. Maybe we'll find out in 10 years that a hemoglobin of 19.5 is totally ok if you're very active and have lowish platelets. But why chance it?

 

[readalot]

Fair, but Dante is using a medically recognized number for his argument. The values vary wildly from lab to lab or organization to organization. But there are many that have a range up to 18 hemoglobin for men. (I always use my hemoglobin, just because the hematocrit is so heavily influenced by hydration ) Anyway, 18/54 isn't a crazy number. Now, I certainly wouldn't be just letting it go sky fucking high like these TRT "gurus" on Youtube advocate. Maybe we'll find out in 10 years that a hemoglobin of 19.5 is totally ok if you're very active and have lowish platelets. But why chance it?

Thanks for your comments. Hematocrit or Hgb on their own don't provide the whole picture; hence, the current 54% hard stop on Hct by many medical organizations does not give the full clinical picture. Plasma viscosity is almost always ignored.

And Hgb and Hct provide identical clinical information (with a few exceptions)...

Daily Injections to Manage Hematocrit - Not Working

Yes, I think I know what Hct is. And no, it isn’t the % of hemoglobin in plasma. It is the volume percentage of red blood cells in whole blood. Contrary to your statement above, dehydration will affect both Hct and Hgb. Here’s a good reference for you to read: Hemoglobin (Hb) is the...

forums.t-nation.com

Both Hct and Hgb are affected by hydration status (their correlation not affected by dehydration):

Daily Injections to Manage Hematocrit - Not Working

Here’s an entire paper devoted to explaining why your statement is wrong.

forums.t-nation.com

 

[DECLAN]

About as elaborate as I can possibly be. Just click and read. At your fingertips. But it takes more work to study and learn than giving people a false sense of confidence with a hand wave.

And no disrespect to you. It is the "guru" that is the object of my scorn. That dude has no business sharing that irresponsible message.

The primary concern of elevated Hct is and never was clotting. Plasma viscosity plus Hct determines whole blood viscosity. Extra Wear and Tear.

lol guru? Wtf, I followed him way back in the early 2000’s even before I ever did gear, when his cycle for pennies were just texts for hardcore lifters. No idea when he became a guru.

Why I am trying his protocol is based on how his guys are not croaking from stroke and blood clots. Plus, some guys in another board have tried it and had better success than grapefruit, remember there are folks who have better access to medical care than us who can get bloodwork anytime they want, hence are able to experiment on what to use to control hemo and hema numbers.

i will see if it helps once I test again in April.

 

[DECLAN]

Thanks for your comments. Hematocrit or Hgb on their own don't provide the whole picture; hence, the current 54% hard stop on Hct by many medical organizations does not give the full clinical picture. Plasma viscosity is almost always ignored.

And Hgb and Hct provide identical clinical information (with a few exceptions)...
View attachment 277603

Daily Injections to Manage Hematocrit - Not Working

Yes, I think I know what Hct is. And no, it isn’t the % of hemoglobin in plasma. It is the volume percentage of red blood cells in whole blood. Contrary to your statement above, dehydration will affect both Hct and Hgb. Here’s a good reference for you to read: Hemoglobin (Hb) is the...

forums.t-nation.com

Both Hct and Hgb are affected by hydration status (their correlation not affected by dehydration):

Daily Injections to Manage Hematocrit - Not Working

Here’s an entire paper devoted to explaining why your statement is wrong.

forums.t-nation.com

View attachment 277604

All this graph and numbers, science data and stuff looks cool and all but what we need iaew working protocols which are currently employed by bodybuilders, trt patients or gymbros.

Can you share what have you used on your clients or people who use testosterone under your care that worked in controlling their hematocrit and hemoglobin.

 

[SuperJew]

All this graph and numbers, science data and stuff looks cool and all but what we need iaew working protocols which are currently employed by bodybuilders, trt patients or gymbros.

Can you share what have you used on your clients or people who use testosterone under your care that worked in controlling their hematocrit and hemoglobin.

Are you using Dante's protocol? I have a script to donate blood as often as every 4 weeks, but donating every 6-8 weeks has left my iron and ferritin quite low. A few days ago I began doing 30mins of cardio, which I'll be doing 6 days a week. I also added in Nattokinase at 8000FU per day. I already take an ACE Inhibitor, but I'm going to speak to my Dr about switching to an ARB. I'll probably make a separate post with all of this, for reference. I plan to do blood again in 4 weeks.

 

[DECLAN]

Are you using Dante's protocol? I have a script to donate blood as often as every 4 weeks, but donating every 6-8 weeks has left my iron and ferritin quite low. A few days ago I began doing 30mins of cardio, which I'll be doing 6 days a week. I also added in Nattokinase at 8000FU per day. I already take an ACE Inhibitor, but I'm going to speak to my Dr about switching to an ARB. I'll probably make a separate post with all of this, for reference. I plan to do blood again in 4 weeks.

I have started following what he posted but I don’t want to make it sound like he gave me the exact numbers or that I am under his care. People make a big deal out of anything nowadays, you know.

I have been donating every three months, few days before my scheduled blood test. I am brand new to trt, 6 months into it and my numbers are already above normal hence the donations. However, it is not working 4 donations and 2 test results came out good, the other 2 still elevated. Funny thing is, both good ones were during blasts and the worse numbers were taken just using 60mg test cyp a week.

So, I’m looking for any protocol to help keep it down permanently. I even ordered enarapril which I will replace my current bp med to incase IP6, nattokinase and naringin doesn’t get the job done.

 

[SuperJew]

I have started following what he posted but I don’t want to make it sound like he gave me the exact numbers or that I am under his care. People make a big deal out of anything nowadays, you know.

I have been donating every three months, few days before my scheduled blood test. I am brand new to trt, 6 months into it and my numbers are already above normal hence the donations. However, it is not working 4 donations and 2 test results came out good, the other 2 still elevated. Funny thing is, both good ones were during blasts and the worse numbers were taken just using 60mg test cyp a week.

So, I’m looking for any protocol to help keep it down permanently. I even ordered enarapril which I will replace my current bp med to incase IP6, nattokinase and naringin doesn’t get the job done.

Don't forget the cardio! That's a huge factor. Don't quote me on the exact mechanism, but I believe it increases plasma volume and also does something to eat up or disrupt red blood cells. And, god forbid you do end up with some sort of issue, a strong heart is always going to be very helpful.

 

[DECLAN]

Don't forget the cardio! That's a huge factor. Don't quote me on the exact mechanism, but I believe it increases plasma volume and also does something to eat up or disrupt red blood cells. And, god forbid you do end up with some sort of issue, a strong heart is always going to be very helpful.

For sure, even that was touched on by the guru lol. Aerobic induced anemia is apparently possible. Anyway, i do 20 mins after workouts except leg day for cardiovascular health regularly, and now i even increase it coz I am cutting.

 

[readalot]

Plasma viscosity plus Hct determines whole blood viscosity. Extra Wear and Tear.

To clarify,

Whole blood viscosity = f(Hct, plasma viscosity)

Hematocrit drives Blood Viscosity- Does that Matter in Men on TRT? Effect of Altitude?

Hi ExcelMale folks, I wanted to start off by expressing my gratitude for this site, all of the amazing work that has been put in to make this place such a great source of information. I would expect no less from a chemical engineer :). I've been following this "debate" about how to properly...

www.excelmale.com

Plasma viscosity: a forgotten variable - PubMed

Evaluation of plasma viscosity has been underutilized in the clinical practice. Plasma viscosity is determined by water-content and macromolecular components. Plasma is a highly concentrated protein solution, therefore weak protein-protein interactions can play a role that is not characterized...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[krugerrand19]

Thanks for your comments. Hematocrit or Hgb on their own don't provide the whole picture; hence, the current 54% hard stop on Hct by many medical organizations does not give the full clinical picture. Plasma viscosity is almost always ignored.

And Hgb and Hct provide identical clinical information (with a few exceptions)...
View attachment 277603

Daily Injections to Manage Hematocrit - Not Working

Yes, I think I know what Hct is. And no, it isn’t the % of hemoglobin in plasma. It is the volume percentage of red blood cells in whole blood. Contrary to your statement above, dehydration will affect both Hct and Hgb. Here’s a good reference for you to read: Hemoglobin (Hb) is the...

forums.t-nation.com

Both Hct and Hgb are affected by hydration status (their correlation not affected by dehydration):

Daily Injections to Manage Hematocrit - Not Working

Here’s an entire paper devoted to explaining why your statement is wrong.

forums.t-nation.com

View attachment 277604

I had a bloodwork that showed HCT at 50.5%, after 15 days I donated therefore subsequently they tested it and sent me the results, i was well hydrated and HCT was 47.6%

Hydration definitely plays a role.

 

[readalot]

I had a bloodwork that showed HCT at 50.5%, after 15 days I donated therefore subsequently they tested it and sent me the results, i was well hydrated and HCT was 47.6%

Hydration definitely plays a role.

Method precision (SD / mean) on today's automated machines is typically 1.5% for Hct. You can see both your Hgb and Hct came back lower. Absolutely, hydration plays a huge role in both Hgb and Hct. Thanks for sharing.

Hemoglobin and Hematocrit - Clinical Methods - NCBI Bookshelf

Hemoglobin (Hb) is the protein contained in red blood cells that is responsible for delivery of oxygen to the tissues. To ensure adequate tissue oxygenation, a sufficient hemoglobin level must be maintained. The amount of hemoglobin in whole blood is expressed in grams per deciliter (g/dl). The...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Hemoglobin (Hb) is the protein contained in red blood cells that is responsible for delivery of oxygen to the tissues. To ensure adequate tissue oxygenation, a sufficient hemoglobin level must be maintained. The amount of hemoglobin in whole blood is expressed in grams per deciliter (g/dl). The normal Hb level for males is 14 to 18 g/dl; that for females is 12 to 16 g/dl. When the hemoglobin level is low, the patient has anemia. An erythrocytosis is the consequence of too many red cells; this results in hemoglobin levels above normal.

The hematocrit measures the volume of red blood cells compared to the total blood volume (red blood cells and plasma). The normal hematocrit for men is 40 to 54%; for women it is 36 to 48%. This value can be determined directly by microhematocrit centrifugation or calculated indirectly. Automated cell counters calculate the hematocrit by multiplying the red cell number (in millions/mm3) by the mean cell volume (MCV, in femtoliters). When so assayed, it is subject to the vagaries inherent in obtaining an accurate measurement of the MCV (see Chapter 152).

Both the hemoglobin and the hematocrit are based on whole blood and are therefore dependent on plasma volume. If a patient is severely dehydrated, the hemoglobin and hematocrit will appear higher than if the patient were normovolemic; if the patient is fluid overloaded, they will be lower than their actual level. To assess true red cell mass, independent radionuclide evaluation of the red cells and plasma (by 51Cr and 131I respectively) must be performed.

 

[readalot]

Just search his posts in instagram.

View: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cr3wcgXPe3v/?igsh=ZDE1MWVjZGVmZQ==

Meant no disrespect to you but I had to call him the "Guru" when he makes outrageous claims with anecdotal support. They (the Gurus) have no theoretical/mechanistic understanding and yet happy to spout off utter BS. I get really irritated with "coaches" giving medical advice.

One more...

The comments on bun-to-creatinine ratio are completely nuts. Over 24 on the BUN/creatinine and now you are dying of CHF? F me. Whoa.

BUN reflects daily protein intake and creatinine basically tells you how much lean body mass you carry. So for those eating 200 g protein+ per day they can easily pop a 28 on that ratio. Completely hydrated and no heart issues.

I'll state clearly...there is no way to hydrate yourself out of a high BUN if you are eating a very high protein diet (and not even that high by nutty BB standards). Guess what else can make you pop a high BUN? Yep you guessed it....high Hgb/Hct. Don't mix up cause and effect.

If you are concerned with kidney function run a cystatin C test. EGFR from creatinine won't tell you much until it's too late (early stage renal disease).

Reliable info for those interested in reading more. I'm sure DT is a nice guy but don't get your medical info from the Gram/Boobtube. Come on, read you Gurus! And find a trusted medical provider.

BUN and Creatinine - Clinical Methods - NCBI Bookshelf

Renal Function Tests - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

 

[DECLAN]

Meant no disrespect to you but I had to call him the "Guru" when he makes outrageous claims with anecdotal support. They (the Gurus) have no theoretical/mechanistic understanding and yet happy to spout off utter BS. I get really irritated with "coaches" giving medical advice.

One more...

The comments on bun-to-creatinine ratio are completely nuts. Over 24 on the BUN/creatinine and now you are dying of CHF? F me. Whoa.

BUN reflects daily protein intake and creatinine basically tells you how much lean body mass you carry. So for those eating 200 g protein+ per day they can easily pop a 28 on that ratio. Completely hydrated and no heart issues.

I'll state clearly...there is no way to hydrate yourself out of a high BUN if you are eating a very high protein diet (and not even that high by nutty BB standards). Guess what else can make you pop a high BUN? Yep you guessed it....high Hgb/Hct. Don't mix up cause and effect.

If you are concerned with kidney function run a cystatin C test. EGFR from creatinine won't tell you much until it's too late (early stage renal disease).

Reliable info for those interested in reading more. I'm sure DT is a nice guy but don't get your medical info from the Gram/Boobtube. Come on, read you Gurus! And find a trusted medical provider.

BUN and Creatinine - Clinical Methods - NCBI Bookshelf

Renal Function Tests - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

No disrespect taken.

You should teach him how its done, I think you have potential to change the bodybuilding industry. Good luck.

 

[readalot]

I

No disrespect taken.

You should teach him how its done, I think you have potential to change the bodybuilding industry. Good luck.

I missed my true calling LOL!

 

[SuperJew]

I

I missed my true calling LOL!

In your research, have you come across any promising ways to lower H/H in steroid users?