Grapefruit vs. Hematocrit

[DECLAN]

In your research, have you come across any promising ways to lower H/H in steroid users?

@readalot any data on enarapril’s effects on lowering H and H?

 

[krugerrand19]

Meant no disrespect to you but I had to call him the "Guru" when he makes outrageous claims with anecdotal support. They (the Gurus) have no theoretical/mechanistic understanding and yet happy to spout off utter BS. I get really irritated with "coaches" giving medical advice.

One more...

The comments on bun-to-creatinine ratio are completely nuts. Over 24 on the BUN/creatinine and now you are dying of CHF? F me. Whoa.

BUN reflects daily protein intake and creatinine basically tells you how much lean body mass you carry. So for those eating 200 g protein+ per day they can easily pop a 28 on that ratio. Completely hydrated and no heart issues.

I'll state clearly...there is no way to hydrate yourself out of a high BUN if you are eating a very high protein diet (and not even that high by nutty BB standards). Guess what else can make you pop a high BUN? Yep you guessed it....high Hgb/Hct. Don't mix up cause and effect.

If you are concerned with kidney function run a cystatin C test. EGFR from creatinine won't tell you much until it's too late (early stage renal disease).

Reliable info for those interested in reading more. I'm sure DT is a nice guy but don't get your medical info from the Gram/Boobtube. Come on, read you Gurus! And find a trusted medical provider.

BUN and Creatinine - Clinical Methods - NCBI Bookshelf

Renal Function Tests - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

i completely agree with you over this topic

 

[readalot]

have you come across any promising ways to lower H/H in steroid users

any data on enarapril’s effects on lowering H and H?

These are excellent questions and in short, no. I know of no universal method to lower H&H universally in a sustainable fashion other than dose reduction. We could have a whole thread/book on ARBs/ACE inhibitors and their action on RAAS that does seem to help in some but not all.

Probably time to do another deep dive thread into hemoglobin vs hematocrit and that not all Hct measurements are created equal. There is also the pesky MCHC issue with guys on TRT/AAS that have low ferritin. This causes some to pop abnormal on Hct but not Hgb. Hgb is much more reproducible between labs than Hct.

In short, currently I try to do everything in my power to keep plasma viscosity low so that even mild elevations in Hct do not translate into needless risk with respect to whole blood viscosity. I currently take baby aspirin (80 mg/day) and nattokinase (10k FU / day). CRP and ESR (poor man's plasma viscosity) is low. I keep my Hgb in range and Hct (Labcorp or Quest) <= 50 to 52%. That is my risk tolerance (ymmv).

The next time you get vials drawn at the lab watch how much time it takes to fill a vial. Get feedback from the phlebotomist. On your next break from high AAS doses correlate the fill time with your Hct readings.

There is also a commercial lab that will test whole blood viscosity at different shear rates. Hasn't caught on yet but would also really help people track the parameter that really matters.

Hematocrit drives Blood Viscosity- Does that Matter in Men on TRT? Effect of Altitude?

Nope. Another 30 min of wasted time scanning and playing this vid at 2x. No mention of plasma viscosity. Did mention whole blood viscosity. More hand waving. How do I say this nicely...the coverage of hematocrit was incomplete and inadequate. Fail. Horrible. My recommendation for them is...

www.excelmale.com

Seems to be widespread ignorance and/or apathy on the utility of such a tool for the BB community.

 

[readalot]

CV Physiology | Viscosity of Blood

cvphysiology.com

A comparison of the erythrocyte sedimentation rate and plasma viscosity in detecting changes in plasma proteins.

The Westergren erythrocyte sedimentation rate (ESR) and plasma viscosity were compared in 114 patients and their correlations with total and differential plasma protein fractions were analysed. There is a linear correlation between these two screening ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[DECLAN]

These are excellent questions and in short, no. I know of no universal method to lower H&H universally in a sustainable fashion other than dose reduction. We could have a whole thread/book on ARBs/ACE inhibitors and their action on RAAS that does seem to help in some but not all.

Probably time to do another deep dive thread into hemoglobin vs hematocrit and that not all Hct measurements are created equal. There is also the pesky MCHC issue with guys on TRT/AAS that have low ferritin. This causes some to pop abnormal on Hct but not Hgb. Hgb is much more reproducible between labs than Hct.

In short, currently I try to do everything in my power to keep plasma viscosity low so that even mild elevations in Hct do not translate into needless risk with respect to whole blood viscosity. I currently take baby aspirin (80 mg/day) and nattokinase (10k FU / day). CRP and ESR (poor man's plasma viscosity) is low. I keep my Hgb in range and Hct (Labcorp or Quest) <= 50 to 52%. That is my risk tolerance (ymmv).

The next time you get vials drawn at the lab watch how much time it takes to fill a vial. Get feedback from the phlebotomist. On your next break from high AAS doses correlate the fill time with your Hct readings.

There is also a commercial lab that will test whole blood viscosity at different shear rates. Hasn't caught on yet but would also really help people track the parameter that really matters.

Hematocrit drives Blood Viscosity- Does that Matter in Men on TRT? Effect of Altitude?

Nope. Another 30 min of wasted time scanning and playing this vid at 2x. No mention of plasma viscosity. Did mention whole blood viscosity. More hand waving. How do I say this nicely...the coverage of hematocrit was incomplete and inadequate. Fail. Horrible. My recommendation for them is...

www.excelmale.com

Seems to be widespread ignorance and/or apathy on the utility of such a tool for the BB community.

I guess I have to rely on anecdotal evidence like we always do. I know everything is individual based but going by the experiences of others, that protocol has been effective for most.

 

[readalot]

I guess I have to rely on anecdotal evidence like we always do. I know everything is individual based but going by the experiences of others, that protocol has been effective for most.

What tools/protocol do you use?
Sorry if this is covered on the Instagram posts. I only saw the first page you shared and don't use that app. Looks like the rest of the commentary is hidden with some popup prompt.

 

[SuperJew]

These are excellent questions and in short, no. I know of no universal method to lower H&H universally in a sustainable fashion other than dose reduction. We could have a whole thread/book on ARBs/ACE inhibitors and their action on RAAS that does seem to help in some but not all.

Probably time to do another deep dive thread into hemoglobin vs hematocrit and that not all Hct measurements are created equal. There is also the pesky MCHC issue with guys on TRT/AAS that have low ferritin. This causes some to pop abnormal on Hct but not Hgb. Hgb is much more reproducible between labs than Hct.

In short, currently I try to do everything in my power to keep plasma viscosity low so that even mild elevations in Hct do not translate into needless risk with respect to whole blood viscosity. I currently take baby aspirin (80 mg/day) and nattokinase (10k FU / day). CRP and ESR (poor man's plasma viscosity) is low. I keep my Hgb in range and Hct (Labcorp or Quest) <= 50 to 52%. That is my risk tolerance (ymmv).

The next time you get vials drawn at the lab watch how much time it takes to fill a vial. Get feedback from the phlebotomist. On your next break from high AAS doses correlate the fill time with your Hct readings.

There is also a commercial lab that will test whole blood viscosity at different shear rates. Hasn't caught on yet but would also really help people track the parameter that really matters.

Hematocrit drives Blood Viscosity- Does that Matter in Men on TRT? Effect of Altitude?

Nope. Another 30 min of wasted time scanning and playing this vid at 2x. No mention of plasma viscosity. Did mention whole blood viscosity. More hand waving. How do I say this nicely...the coverage of hematocrit was incomplete and inadequate. Fail. Horrible. My recommendation for them is...

www.excelmale.com

Seems to be widespread ignorance and/or apathy on the utility of such a tool for the BB community.

Oh woooorrrd? That shit is sciency as fuck! I don't have the mental bandwidth available right now to go through that...but I very much appreciate it!

 

[SuperJew]

What tools/protocol do you use?
Sorry if this is covered on the Instagram posts. I only saw the first page you shared and don't use that app. Looks like the rest of the commentary is hidden with some popup prompt.

I'm using a version of the protocol, so I'll chime in. Dante recommends avoiding high iron foods and vitamin c. I've skipped this part as it isn't practical long term. A big one is becoming cardio efficient. I've personally upped my cardio to 30mins a day, 6 days a week. I've also added in Nattokinase at 8000FU per day. In the past he's recommended ARB, but I already take Lisinopril. I'm sure DECLAN can chime in with a bit more.

I should be clear that I'm on a " blast" I have no issues on say 250mgs of test a week. I feel bad for these guys who get super high numbers on like 150mgs. That's insane.

 

[readalot]

That shit is sciency as fuck!

Sorry, I'll try to do better in the future.

Well done on the cardio!

Thanks for the summary.

 

[krugerrand19]

I'm using a version of the protocol, so I'll chime in. Dante recommends avoiding high iron foods and vitamin c. I've skipped this part as it isn't practical long term. A big one is becoming cardio efficient. I've personally upped my cardio to 30mins a day, 6 days a week. I've also added in Nattokinase at 8000FU per day. In the past he's recommended ARB, but I already take Lisinopril. I'm sure DECLAN can chime in with a bit more.

I should be clear that I'm on a " blast" I have no issues on say 250mgs of test a week. I feel bad for these guys who get super high numbers on like 150mgs. That's insane.

Sadly cardio doesn't work for me.
I reached 7h cardio per week
(4h Z3 and 3h HIIT) still on the upper limit just as you say, on 150mg test C per week.
I also use 8k FU nattokinase on a single administration in the morning. I will introduce 500mg naringin per day if things gets worse.
Still, besides phlebotomy and proper hydration I've found no solution to this annoying issue.

 

[SuperJew]

Sadly cardio doesn't work for me.
I reached 7h cardio per week
(4h Z3 and 3h HIIT) still on the upper limit just as you say, on 150mg test C per week.
I also use 8k FU nattokinase on a single administration in the morning. I will introduce 500mg naringin per day if things gets worse.
Still, besides phlebotomy and proper hydration I've found no solution to this annoying issue.

Do you have sleep apnea? Have you been told you snore? Are you carrying a lot of bodyfat?

 

[krugerrand19]

Do you have sleep apnea? Have you been told you snore? Are you carrying a lot of bodyfat?

Yes mate, I snore, but the polysomnography showed no sleep apnea.
Currently at 9.8% BF estimated by plicometry, at 90kg BW.
Guess it's just AAS induced erythrocytosis.
Still have two trainings left, 90 minutes each. I definitely hate cardio.

 

[SuperJew]

These are excellent questions and in short, no. I know of no universal method to lower H&H universally in a sustainable fashion other than dose reduction. We could have a whole thread/book on ARBs/ACE inhibitors and their action on RAAS that does seem to help in some but not all.

Probably time to do another deep dive thread into hemoglobin vs hematocrit and that not all Hct measurements are created equal. There is also the pesky MCHC issue with guys on TRT/AAS that have low ferritin. This causes some to pop abnormal on Hct but not Hgb. Hgb is much more reproducible between labs than Hct.

In short, currently I try to do everything in my power to keep plasma viscosity low so that even mild elevations in Hct do not translate into needless risk with respect to whole blood viscosity. I currently take baby aspirin (80 mg/day) and nattokinase (10k FU / day). CRP and ESR (poor man's plasma viscosity) is low. I keep my Hgb in range and Hct (Labcorp or Quest) <= 50 to 52%. That is my risk tolerance (ymmv).

The next time you get vials drawn at the lab watch how much time it takes to fill a vial. Get feedback from the phlebotomist. On your next break from high AAS doses correlate the fill time with your Hct readings.

There is also a commercial lab that will test whole blood viscosity at different shear rates. Hasn't caught on yet but would also really help people track the parameter that really matters.

Hematocrit drives Blood Viscosity- Does that Matter in Men on TRT? Effect of Altitude?

Nope. Another 30 min of wasted time scanning and playing this vid at 2x. No mention of plasma viscosity. Did mention whole blood viscosity. More hand waving. How do I say this nicely...the coverage of hematocrit was incomplete and inadequate. Fail. Horrible. My recommendation for them is...

www.excelmale.com

Seems to be widespread ignorance and/or apathy on the utility of such a tool for the BB community.

Lots of great info there. Thank you. I see that there's a blood test that specifically tests for blood viscosity. Am I correct in assuming that it would be more accurate than an ESR test? I'd be curious to test mine when my Hematocrit is around 55. Would that level of hematocrit automatically make the blood more viscous? Or is it not that simplistic?

 

[readalot]

Lots of great info there. Thank you. I see that there's a blood test that specifically tests for blood viscosity. Am I correct in assuming that it would be more accurate than an ESR test? I'd be curious to test mine when my Hematocrit is around 55. Would that level of hematocrit automatically make the blood more viscous? Or is it not that simplistic?

The only option in US besides the whole blood sample (in link above) would be serum viscosity through quest/labcorp. You could run esr/crp and serum viscosity easily through the cash pay sites (I use ulta labs). Nice to rule out hyperviscosity.

Viscosity, Serum

The Viscosity, Serum Quest lab test contains 1 test with 1 biomarker.

www.ultalabtests.com

Understanding Whole Blood, Serum, and Plasma - DCN Dx

Most laboratory testing for clinical purposes is done on samples obtained from blood. Whole blood contains the liquid fraction of blood (i.e., plasma) as well

dcndx.com

Plasma viscosity is preferred over serum but I don't see it routinely measured in US but is in some parts of EU.

Whole Blood Viscosity vs. Serum and Plasma Viscosity | Meridian Valley Lab

Meridian Valley Laboratory is the only clinical reference lab that provides a comprehensive blood viscosity profile, which includes both systolic and diastolic blood viscosity measurements. There are many reference laboratories and pathology departments of hospitals that can provide clinical...

www.meridianvalleylab.com

Haven't tried the WBV service. Plasma and whole blood viscosity testing would be of value to bodybuilders/AAS hobbyists and provide a better picture than just Hgb/Hct. Otherwise one can simply use the poor man's CBC/cRP/ESR and hope for the best IMO.

 

[-Maui-]

Just search his posts in instagram.

View: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cr3wcgXPe3v/?igsh=ZDE1MWVjZGVmZQ==

Thanks!

 

[-Maui-]

Naringin is the active compound in grapefruit that’s responsible for disposing RBC’s. It’s much easier to take a Naringin supplement, that’s what I do. Hope this maybe be helpful.

Hey! You're absolutely right!
This is exactly what I', going to do soon!
The first data will appear in the next 3 weeks.

 

[-Maui-]

remember there are folks who have better access to medical care than us who can get bloodwork anytime they want, hence are able to experiment on what to use to control hemo and hema numbers.

My "group of volunteers" is ready to experiment for a good cause ))
There are different views on hematocrit control.
I want to check them personally and find the best of the simple options (excluding blood donation).
I hope this information will be useful.

 

[-Maui-]

also use 8k FU nattokinase on a single administration in the morning.

Nattokinase doesn't reduce hematocrit.
But an increase in HCT is not so scary if you use nattokinase or aspirin.
Right? ))

 

[DECLAN]

My "group of volunteers" is ready to experiment for a good cause ))
There are different views on hematocrit control.
I want to check them personally and find the best of the simple options (excluding blood donation).
I hope this information will be useful.

It’s greatly appreciated if you share the results.

 

[BachmanityInsanity]

Do any of you get a red front of neck and a bit less but also red in the face from high hamatocrit?