amindzeye
Member
For me to run a gram of Test, I'd have to take between 100-150mg/week of exemestane... That can't be less toxic than running another compound instead.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
MESO-Rx Exclusive How safe (dangerous) is 1000mg per week of testosterone?
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plenty of ways to skin a cat and freq injecting is one of them. Are you munching anti e's because of blood work? Its high so what? E follows T
Are you scared of high e2?
Are you growing tits or had gyno?
Tingle nips once or twice aint gyno hormones do flux.
Everyone complains about high e2. Majority of the culprit is high blood pressure and ARB / angiotensin is needed.
Either being to fat or crap diet and the rare occasion "genes this would be the case on TRT dose or natty"
amindzeye
Member
I know this due to blood work. And accurately extrapolated a dose to get my e2 within 9 points of my estimation.
Fattyone
Well-known Member
For me to run a gram of test all I have to do is.. pin a gram a week.
Zero sides, including estrogen sides. Doesn’t even feel any different than TRT. If I was blind folded and someone else was in charge of injecting me I’d have no idea
29trt
Well-known Member
Me too to some extent, but my gains do not follow the increased amount of Test... above 300mg nothing much happens sides or gains...if I take 200 mg deca on top of the 300 test my muscles instantly fill up especially shoulders, traps...
something weird is going on with how my body processes test... most I've taken is 600mg test and between that and 300 there was no difference ZERO.
maybe if I went up to 1g I would see a diff but is 200mg of deca worse than 700extra mg of test? IDk....
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Fattyone
Well-known Member
I’m the same. My body also doesn’t seem to process test as good as others. My doctor had my TRT dose higher than anyone I’ve ever seen because of it. 200mg a week will have my PEAK levels at 500 (total) and free mid range.
Trying to find something that will make me grow and not give me horrible sides but it seems my body doesn’t tolerate anything besides test.
HB_22
Well-known Member
It's called genetics. Some are gifted and can take a gram or more with no anti-e and others are not gifted. There's nothing wrong with taking an AI to counter high E.
I think that is good advice. All things being equal, I don't see why experienced trainers would choose high-dose test only over this.
I think the 1 gram test as the holy grail originated in an earlier period. Duchaine was one of the first to say that 1g test is where the magic begins. Others like Bill Roberts and Dave Palumbo were big on it too.
If you recognize that all things weren't equal in the 90s, these recommendations made a lot more sense.
Nowadays, any moderately resourceful bodybuilder can find pretty much any drug with a reasonably high probability of getting accurately dosed products (if choosing the well-test labs).
In the 90s, the availability situation was entirely different. It was much more of a crap shoot especially with exotics and pretty much anything that wasn't testosterone. And if you found the exotics, they weren't affordable at all
So it made a lot of sense to simply stick with readily available test products (mexican vet products were everywhere and cheap) and up the dose.
To say things have changed now is an understatement.
I'm around a lot of guys that compete, and a lot that don't. Both groups use a lot of test. 1-2 grams is common, almost all the guys competing use that. I know a lot of 'gym rats' that are using that much, but they do so to try and make up for shit diet and training. I know a guy that cruises on 2 grams of test, and has for years, loads up a 5ml syringe 2x per week. I prefer to keep test lower and add primo, mast, var, GH.
narta
Member
So much this.
"Cheap" and real primo was non existent same as masterone. No one knew dhb or ment, gh was extra pricey. Test, deca and orals was the norm and test had the best bang for the buck, so yeah 1gr was magical
i agree - nothing is wrong with anti-e's people see these as the devil if its for cycle purpose so what? TRT different story.
The short answer is you would have to have a SHIT TON of activated neuron rich muscle to justify 1000mgs test unmitigated by other steroid competition. Anecdotal but experiential and take it from and idiot like me..
So guys that seem to get away with pinning a fuckton of steroids would most likely simply never be benefitting from the excess in a best case limited harm scenario.
You have to first realize that anything that hits an androgen or any receptor capable of receiving these type homones is going to have a limit to the number of "ports" the cell can entertain these "Guest actors".. So even if you have well cleaved and bioavailable exogenous hormones in circulation, the excess may fail to deploy at the receptor and get pissed out if there is nowhere for it to land. You must further recognize that most likely the body will only produce the amount of SHBG required for current tissue demands in turn carrying the hormones to said receptors as they exist in population, which must first happen to a cleaved exogenous steroid to deliver it to the cell in the first place. No available SHBG ='s no uber ride to the cell for metabolism. A demand factor so to speak. So in short most would have limited capacity to fully utilize the excess steroid in application other than to piss it out. The possibility I am currently concerned with (and even worse) would be having still esterified hormones release from the rump, and RE-distribute uncleaved into other fat around the body. As fas as which properly cleaved and available steroids/steroid families will have the most cellular affinity will boil down to receptor affinity to particular steroids as related to particular tissue cell type - which I am rusty on.
EXAMPLE : There are also reasons for certain cycle formulations. Classic example being 600 test/300 deca... OR Meaning whereas a guy on 1000mgs test c and and absurd about of trenE (700mgs) might not feel the effects of the tren fully due to the receptors being occupied with the test. If they should they make the mistake of taking the test away and and thus giving the body room for the full load of tren to doc at the cells, they could wind up in a whole lot of "Discomfort". Whereas otherwise excess cleaved and available tren from 700mgs dosage might have been getting pissed out harmlessly.. OR visa versa.
I am currently researching possible liver damage which could hypothetically be incurred due to uncleaved esterfied homones supersaturating out of depot injection site side prior to ester cleaving thus just sending them off to bite somewhere else, and due to any form of liver failure rendering enzyme production stymied. Thus then further disabling the liver's ability to recover and manufacture said esterase esters, thus further worsening any condition the liver may be suffering from which caused it to fail to produce adequate esterase in the first place..
The old golden rule they use to teach around here is start with basics first like test and find optimal ground and take full advantage of singular faceted cycles why you can starting as low as possible. ESTABLISH BASELINES BY WORKING UP SLOWLY ALWAYS.
Now as for the question posed raw and directly as to 1000mgs of test straight up. That is a dose for a seasoned veteran marked my his 275lb 15%BMI beast of a body..
MY TWO CENTS AND NOT READING THE BILL ROBERTS LINK AS I PROBABLY DID WAY BACK.
So guys that seem to get away with pinning a fuckton of steroids would most likely simply never be benefitting from the excess in a best case limited harm scenario.
You have to first realize that anything that hits an androgen or any receptor capable of receiving these type homones is going to have a limit to the number of "ports" the cell can entertain these "Guest actors".. So even if you have well cleaved and bioavailable exogenous hormones in circulation, the excess may fail to deploy at the receptor and get pissed out if there is nowhere for it to land. You must further recognize that most likely the body will only produce the amount of SHBG required for current tissue demands in turn carrying the hormones to said receptors as they exist in population, which must first happen to a cleaved exogenous steroid to deliver it to the cell in the first place. No available SHBG ='s no uber ride to the cell for metabolism. A demand factor so to speak. So in short most would have limited capacity to fully utilize the excess steroid in application other than to piss it out. The possibility I am currently concerned with (and even worse) would be having still esterified hormones release from the rump, and RE-distribute uncleaved into other fat around the body. As fas as which properly cleaved and available steroids/steroid families will have the most cellular affinity will boil down to receptor affinity to particular steroids as related to particular tissue cell type - which I am rusty on.
EXAMPLE : There are also reasons for certain cycle formulations. Classic example being 600 test/300 deca... OR Meaning whereas a guy on 1000mgs test c and and absurd about of trenE (700mgs) might not feel the effects of the tren fully due to the receptors being occupied with the test. If they should they make the mistake of taking the test away and and thus giving the body room for the full load of tren to doc at the cells, they could wind up in a whole lot of "Discomfort". Whereas otherwise excess cleaved and available tren from 700mgs dosage might have been getting pissed out harmlessly.. OR visa versa.
I am currently researching possible liver damage which could hypothetically be incurred due to uncleaved esterfied homones supersaturating out of depot injection site side prior to ester cleaving thus just sending them off to bite somewhere else, and due to any form of liver failure rendering enzyme production stymied. Thus then further disabling the liver's ability to recover and manufacture said esterase esters, thus further worsening any condition the liver may be suffering from which caused it to fail to produce adequate esterase in the first place..
The old golden rule they use to teach around here is start with basics first like test and find optimal ground and take full advantage of singular faceted cycles why you can starting as low as possible. ESTABLISH BASELINES BY WORKING UP SLOWLY ALWAYS.
Now as for the question posed raw and directly as to 1000mgs of test straight up. That is a dose for a seasoned veteran marked my his 275lb 15%BMI beast of a body..
MY TWO CENTS AND NOT READING THE BILL ROBERTS LINK AS I PROBABLY DID WAY BACK.
Q How safe (dangerous) is 1000mg per week Testosterone?
What do you think?
Here's what @Bill Roberts has to say:
f
Safety and Effectiveness of Testosterone at 1000 Milligrams per Week
Q: You talked about a gram per week of testosterone. Isn’t that ridiculous? What about say 200 mg? A: It is my view that the farther one is from one’sthinksteroids.com
29trt
Well-known Member
I guess this lines up well with studies that show diminishing returns as the dose of test is increased over about 300mg
So for a fresh guy with no ped use starting at 1000 will not illicit much more LBM over a 600 dose because the receptors in the limited amount of muscle cells are already saturated, is that correct ?
It would be more efficacious to use 300mg test and maybe a stronger anabolic like Tren, hence the current thinking that staking anabolics is synergistic... but in actual fact you are using a stronger anabolic than test to stimulate the receptors in the muscles, correct?
Ridethelightningbarefoot
Well-known Member
I usually blast in 1g along with other compounds. Test alone 1000mg isnt that much. You will see a lot of gains from it. The drugs work. I would say its safe but only if you have already tried lower doses to gauge side effects because they are specific to the individual
Yes on the 300 and most importantly you want to start with the lowest does that works because the more you take over time while not scientifically documented so much, it appears that the prior lower level of dosing MAY become less effective do sum unclear potential permanent down regulation. I am sure anyone who is strict to "science" would argue that point which I make. But this concept would actually serve as PRO for higher level with time and experience considered, and in addition to actual active muscle content.
Yes 1000 on a gym newbie or just someone not dedicated enough to have any real natural development is not only totally wasted but possibly a big negative long term due to early over stimulation and of all the wrong factors stimulated as well. With consideration of a test only starter cycle, 4-600 is the recommended starting test cycle dose the higher side being for more developed athletes prior to any AAS use..
It should be noted that in my first experience around 35 years old I found that 300mgs test C was about the perfect amount for me being barely around my genetic potential and also still incorporating a great deal of cardio related fitness into my routine. After that it became more of pump and hindrance to cardio based exercise, but not only I started to noticed diminishing returns for sure.
Additionally, there is always the anecdotal experiential concept that "One is going to get the most gains of their first few cycles/exposures". WHAT THEY FAIL TO QUALIFY IN THIS STATEMENT is that someone that has never trained, and never developed a good muscle base is not going to get shit regardless and 300 is more than enough in not completely unmerited in the case of the complete newbie. So that concept I would argue steroid cycling would fit more perfectly in a world where someone has trained hard for 2 years plus, can move a few plates on the bench with authority, and who it at least 75% succeeded to their GENETIC POTETIAL. That would be the perfect world and ONLY circumstance I would recommend AAS even as just a test only based starting protocol. And as they have also proven they are sticking with it and not got to waste as well..
Yes on the tren having a stronger affinity to muscle cells I believe is corrent scientific knowledge, Keep in mind again the classic cycle proportions with STACKING. As the earlier example i think with deca you pretty much stay around HALF the test dose in order to keep the proportions correct and this HAS VERY MUCH TO DO WITH RECEPTOR AFFINITIES as they relate to the end goal. I believe that with Tren you are supposed to have the Tren as the steroid in higher proportion, thus to allow the tren cycle to be A TREN CYCLE. And not have a bunch of test hogging cellular receptors. And also with tren cycles you have to keep some test in the mix, especially if you are low BMI, in order to maintain a high enough level of estrogen to remain fruitful. Personally I am not disciplined enough to run tren and I know it. However it should be noted that in my recent travels meeting people I am surprised at how many folks have disclaimed to me that they experience great hostility on a deca involved cycle.!!! But then again all this has SOME to do with individual genetics, but A MOUNTAIN to do with steroid proportions on cycle stacks.
There is a lot of GREAT information here at this site dating all the way back to before the docs started coming around here and just good old ROCK SOLID Bro Science. But back they it was easier to quality WHO it was with good information to listen to as there were less members. So if one is going back to the old school science that was practiced here and founded MESO the you would find the following...:
1. NEVER start steroid use without first obtaining baseline lab work. There specifics are plentiful in publication here is you research around 2007.
2. NEVER Use steroids under the age of at least 25 or so.
3. ALWAYS START with a basic test only cycle. The next logical progression was test and deca. There was also the notion of priming a test cycle with some dbol.
4. Tren wasn't even a thing back there for this site and the average steroid employing workout enthusiast.
5. And finally the average workout guy have no business EVER employing Insulin or GH. YOU WILL BE SORRY ONE DAY...
6. Lastly and most importantly the old schoolers put it simply in that IF YOU ARE FAT DONT EVEN WASTE YOUR TIME UNTIL YOU GET SKINNY BECAUSE THE STEROID WONT EVEN WORK. And they were right. In fact being older and fatter on my comback which started 4 years ago I can attest that Test and other steroid even MAY EVEN HAVE a greater ability to retain and proliferate fat cells, as opposed to developing existing and new muscle !!!!!!!!!!
Shit SARMS did not even exist then nor all these peptides conjugates.. So start small and earn it.
You sound like you are on the right and most important track WHICH IS EDUCATING YOURSELF. Congrats and welcome to Meso ...!
GuerillaPete
Well-known Member
Most “Guru’s “agree that androgen receptors upregulate with higher doses.
More works better until you get side effects and organs are stressed.
This point of diminishing returns differs among individuals.
More works better until you get side effects and organs are stressed.
This point of diminishing returns differs among individuals.
I wouldn't argue that as I don't know too much. I also could see it being true especially as considered to a specific point in time. Kinda like increasing protein intake increases biological (natural or not) protein synthesis right??? That is if you meant to indeed type UPregulate.
My suspicion on the DOWN regulation would be pertaining to long term and repeated cycling as I anecdotally perceive it... And kinda falling in line with the old "first cycles are the most productive hypotheses"...
We must also distinguish that there are TWO DIFFERENT VECTORS for our purpose here in terms of "POINT OF DIMINISHING RETURNS"... One being the point of diminishing returns truly translating to THE NEGATIVES OUT WEIGHING THE POSITIVES. As opposed to simply postulating that the positives are lessening.. and VIA either as an overall measurement OR simply not retuning "the same bang for every buck more added".. but we must consider that a certain dosage level, the same one that dose intended positive outcomes occur, that at some level begins to re-tool itself as a resource now converting to UNintended outcomes... Meaning - NOT just a LESS-GOOD-HAPPENING, but a NEGATIVES-NOW-CANCELLING-POSITIVES standpoint...
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29trt
Well-known Member
I always heard that too but never heard a reference quoted for it... and it might be true but to what extent and in what time frame?
I've never heard anyone talk about the actual time frame... do AR upregulate during a cycle and than start going down on cruise, or do they upregulate over years and years and never decrease much during cruise?
the studies with carnitine are a clue in proving this theory of AR upreg but idk how it links up with PED use...
maybe more informed individuals can bring some light into this as it would bring some weight to the advice to new guys starting gear to not abuse the shit... First cycle at 1g etc....
Yea and to be clear while I have seen a shit ton of posts I dont think anyone has advocated a gram for folk not meriting AKA JACCKED AS SHIT.. LOL
You make some interesting points as well comparing to blast/cruise scenario. I was only thinking as far as cycling on and off completely..
And not to take the thread off topic but you get me interested in any knowlege you have about Carnitine. I have not used it much. In the past I would buy the cold refrigerated stuff and it always seemed to make me a better person in subtle ways i could never quite put finger on... ANy links appreciated. Or maybe just expounding on how that equates to this subject.
GuerillaPete
Well-known Member
Some would make better gains on 1 gram cycle than others.
Some people cant take 150 mg test a week because of side effects(cholesterol , blood pressure , hair loss, acne etc)
Others take 2 grams and have no sides, its what you where born with .
On the androgen receptors i cant give you the definite answer backed by studies and probably no one can so the next best thing is guys who trained 100 ‘s of people and the observations they made.
One thing that is for sure is if you grow muscle the new muscle will have new receptors meaning the more you build the more AAS you can use .
Some have genetically more receptors in the right places so they can take more from the get go and use it to build muscle.
If you do a cycle or two and you look better than guys that juice for 5 years your one of those blessed guys .
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