Joints/Tendons/Bone

[scotch]

CubbieBlue, thank you for the post.

Although the links provide little in terms of clarity, they are helpful in that at this point the evidence just isn’t there to support AAS as part of recovery. Best to stay off the gear until 100% healed I think.

I am still on the fence regarding hGH, but am leaning towards giving it a try. The cost, although high, is significantly less than the PRP injections. I am not convinced it will help, and would love links evidencing efficacy either way, but worst case scenario is it keeps me lean when I can’t train.

 

[scotch]

Not sure how I missed this one: Joints/Tendons/Bone

The good doc's study seems to put another checkmark in the yes column.

 

[CubbieBlue]

Somewhat, but I have some concerns about this study, and hopefully someone knowledgeable about nandrolone can help out:

1.)
50 mg were injected bi-weekly
Does this indicate 2x per week, or once every two weeks? I am assuming once every two weeks.

I am not sure of the strength of nandrolone, but if I injected you with 50mg of testosterone bi-weekly that would probably be just enough to shut you down and make you miserable - right? I am assuming a similar situation would happen with 50mg of nandrolone.

So instead of benefitting from the nandrolone, perhaps some benefit was gained by by actually shutting these people down - so in fact, maybe the relative absence of androgens was the reason why the nandrolone group performed better.

I guess what I am wondering is: How would 50mg of nandrolone bi-weekly (maybe Mike can chime in as to the definition of bi-weekly here) effect endogenous testosterone levels?

2.)
I am unsure of all of the anatomy involved in a complete knee replacement. The anecdotal reports I have seen from people having major surgery like this seems to show that individuals that are "on cycle" recover better and quicker than their surgeons expect them to. However, this does not seem to translate (based on the research I can currently find) to tendon and ligament healing. Muscle healing may be a different story entirely.

Lastly, Scotch - the prevailing thought around most boards recently is that GHRP-6/2/Ipamorelin either by itself or in conjunction with GFR (1-29) is the superior way to boost HGH levels. Administering HGH tends to spike it up and then leave it elevated for a length of time with it slowly bottoming out, resulting in an unnatural GH production pattern. The peptides allow GH to pulse itself as it naturally would, albeit at higher (and some would say more youthful) levels. THis is supposed to reduce side effects while increasing the benefits of HGH release. However, this does not translate to a higher systemic IGF-1, but from what I have read, it shouldn't matter.

Other benefits include the fact that GHRP and GFR is a hell of a lot cheaper than HGH.

 

[Millard]

Re: Question for the experts/docs on use of HGH/AAS as part of ligament/tendon rehab

Somewhat, but I have some concerns about this study, and hopefully someone knowledgeable about nandrolone can help out:

1.)
50 mg were injected bi-weekly
Does this indicate 2x per week, or once every two weeks? I am assuming once every two weeks.

I am not sure of the strength of nandrolone, but if I injected you with 50mg of testosterone bi-weekly that would probably be just enough to shut you down and make you miserable - right? I am assuming a similar situation would happen with 50mg of nandrolone.

So instead of benefitting from the nandrolone, perhaps some benefit was gained by by actually shutting these people down - so in fact, maybe the relative absence of androgens was the reason why the nandrolone group performed better.

I guess what I am wondering is: How would 50mg of nandrolone bi-weekly (maybe Mike can chime in as to the definition of bi-weekly here) effect endogenous testosterone levels?

It was 50mg deca every two weeks. I'm surprised there was improvement with that low dose. I think the design was weak because they apparently gave no consideration to the hormonal environment before, during or after the 6-month cycle.

Maybe the elderly patients were all hypogonadic to begin and 50mg deca every two weeks was an improvement on their hormonal status and gave them a 'running start' towards recovery of strength?

what was t status before cycle? after? this stuff is important.

who does a 20+ week low-dose deca only cycle?

imo, bodybuilding use of aas can help inform therapeutic use.

it is a mistake to ignore the extensive albeit anecdotal history of self-experimentation in bodybuilding

there are better cycle designs for this purpose.

and ones that take into account asih.

what I did like...

...was their recognition of the therapeutic potential as I quote in my blog article:

"Recently there is an increasing interest in using anabolic steroids for medical conditions such as age related muscle wasting and increase muscle mass in patients with secondary wasting syndromes such as HIV. The main effects are positive anabolic actions on the musculoskeletal system influencing lean body mass, muscle size, strength, protein and bone metabolism and collagen synthesis. The effect is dose dependent and significant increases in strength occur only with doses of 300 mg testosterone or more. Side effects are rare and mostly benign and reversible."

The Performance-Enhancing Effects of Deca Durabolin Are Celebrated in Medicine - MESO-Rx

The scientific community is becoming increasingly excited by the therapeutic use of anabolic steroids for a variety of medical treatments. The same

thinksteroids.com

 

[CubbieBlue]

It was 50mg deca every two weeks. I'm surprised there was improvement with that low dose. I think the design was weak because they apparently gave no consideration to the hormonal environment before, during or after the 6-month cycle.

Maybe the elderly patients were all hypogonadic to begin and 50mg deca every two weeks was an improvement on their hormonal status and gave them a 'running start' towards recovery of strength?

what was t status before cycle? after? this stuff is important. who does a 20+ week low-dose deca only cycle?

imo, bodybuilding use of aas can help inform therapeutic use.

it is a mistake to ignore the extensive albeit anecdotal history of self-experimentation in bodybuilding

there are better cycle designs for this purpose.

and ones that take into account asih.

what I did like...

...was their recognition of the therapeutic potential as I quote in my blog article:

....(edit) I have never seen an anecdotal report claim that AAS use helped their tendonitis, except for possibly temporarily. A reason for this could be that they are on AAS and then working out even with tendonitis, making it worse, or at least perpetuating it. Or it could be that AAS just doesn't do much for tendon recovery. I don't know.

 

[CubbieBlue]

....(edit) I have never seen an anecdotal report claim that AAS use helped their tendonitis, except for possibly temporarily. A reason for this could be that they are on AAS and then working out even with tendonitis, making it worse, or at least perpetuating it. Or it could be that AAS just doesn't do much for tendon recovery. I don't know.

Does anyone have anecdotal reports of AAS (particularly a non-testosterone based steroid) helping them heal from a tendon-based injury? Hell, even a muscle based injury I am interested in hearing about.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

See: Joints/Tendons/Bone

 

[CubbieBlue]

See: Joints/Tendons/Bone

If you will scroll up you will see all of my questions about this particular study.

 

[Ziggajay]

Small dose of EQ with high test for joints and tendons

Sup, i'm thinking of running around 200mg EW of bold/EQ alongside 600-800 test cyp EW to help keep strong tendons while on a mass/strength mix routine. The main idea being to avoid tendon or cartilage injury during the cycle, since high doses of testosterone alone inhibit collagen synthesis.

At the same time I dont want to experience any of the sides of EQ like anxiety (which I am prone to) and increased appetite (I already have a huge appetite and am overweight somewhat).

I have experience with Test only cycles. Was just wondering if adding the bare minimum (200 mg) of EQ weekly while on 800mg of test cyp will help with the joints and tendons and maybe even strengthen them.

Thx in advance

 

[RuLeofThuMb]

Re: Small dose of EQ with high test for joints and tendons

IMO, I have always heard of information about Deca relating to tendon and ligament strengthening, but i think it might be an exaggeration when users say it helps.
Do some research before anything. I found this article by a known Doc.

"Dr. Kaiser replies:

Nandrolone (deca-durabolin) is an anabolic, muscle building, steroid hormone whose main use is to help increase muscle tissue known as body cell mass. Taking therapeutic amounts of this hormone under close medical supervision can help support the growth of muscle tissue and promote strength and energy in several chronic conditions such as HIV/AIDS; however nandrolone is not FDA-approved for this indication.

One of the things that nandrolone DOES NOT DO is to promote the healing of ligaments. In fact, one of the suspect reasons that professional sports athletes frequently injure their ligaments is thought to be the overuse of anabolic steroid hormones. The reason for this is that while anabolic hormones build and strengthen muscle tissue, they do not build and strengthen the ligaments that the muscles pull on to move your limbs. This can place an extreme stress on the ligaments and make them more subject to strain and rupture. "

Trust me i wish it did, I have shoulder problems....
Some others here will disagree with me but everyone has their own opinion.

Be safe and good luck bro

 

[Bill Roberts]

Re: Small dose of EQ with high test for joints and tendons

On the one hand it's speculative and as personal opinion I think unlikely as to whether you'd get the benefit to ligaments or tendonds you're hoping for to any tangible degree if at all, but on the other hand that dose of boldenone is unlikely to give you any problems either, and the 200 mg boldenone / 600-800 mg/week test cyp cycle will be more effective for you than using only that amount of testosterone cypionate, or if wanting to compare similar total dosages, would usually be a milder cycle than what would result from adding in 200 mg/week more testosterone. Your proposed stack is a perfectly good one.

You might get some lubrication of joints (to use an imprecise term: I don't know exactly what does happen.)

 

[Ziggajay]

Re: Small dose of EQ with high test for joints and tendons

Thats a good reply BR, I'm just wondering if such a disproportionate ratio of test to EQ would mitigate the tendon strengthening effects of the EQ. Which is really all I'm looking for out of the EQ.
Or does the ratio even matter at all? EQ is reported to increase collagen synthesis by 340% at 3mg per KG of bodyweight. Test at supraphysiological doses stalls it.
I'm still unsure on this one. Maybe somebody can share some insight on this.

 

[shockandawelifter]

Re: *EQ increases tendon strength*

bump

i found a refinance regarding Nandrolone Decanoate effects on tendons and joints :

http://www.flexcellint.com/documents/TT/TT2.pdf

 

[solo47]

Re: *EQ increases tendon strength*

bump

i found a refinance regarding Nandrolone Decanoate effects on tendons and joints :

http://www.flexcellint.com/documents/TT/TT2.pdf

Sounds good. Lord knows I need to refinance.

Solo

 

[ergomaniac]

Re: *EQ increases tendon strength*

collagen is involved in skin too. i wonder if that why some guys look a lot older than their years. some pros could easily pass for 10 years older.

 

[solo47]

Re: *EQ increases tendon strength*

collagen is involved in skin too. i wonder if that why some guys look a lot older than their years. some pros could easily pass for 10 years older.

Never thought of that. Here I've been blaming GH for the sudden growth of fleshiness on my face. Wow, do I now have to give up EQ? (Ah well, forced back into running Tren instead.)

Solo

 

[someanddone]

Re: *EQ increases tendon strength*

@ergomaniac - I've often wondered why some of the top pros look so old. But I've come to the conclusion that it has a lot to do with the amount of muscle being built on their face from chewing, smiling, grunting, straining, etc while being on steroids. A big difference between an 18 yr old's face and the same guy at 28 is the width and musculature of the face. Also, nobody face looks healthy at 3%bf or at a bloated 340lbs.

All this being said, I don't think the extra collagen or gh helps either.

 

[Get Some]

Re: *EQ increases tendon strength*

I don't think collagen synthesis from EQ can cause "hyperplasia" of the skin or growth. In my experience my skin has been great on EQ. Everytime I take it my acne seems to clear up and my skin dryness goes away. I really don't think that's a coincidence.

BTW, for the record....the best cycle I've ever run as a bulker...


Dbol 40mg ED weeks 1-4
Test E 500mg EW weeks 1-14
Deca 500mg EW weeks 1-12
EQ 600mg EW weeks 1-12

gained a sick amount of mass with very little water weight. I'm going to be running a similar cycle soon but replacing Deca with Tren....I'm excited

 

[ergomaniac]

Re: *EQ increases tendon strength*

@ergomaniac - I've often wondered why some of the top pros look so old. But I've come to the conclusion that it has a lot to do with the amount of muscle being built on their face from chewing, smiling, grunting, straining, etc while being on steroids. A big difference between an 18 yr old's face and the same guy at 28 is the width and musculature of the face. Also, nobody face looks healthy at 3%bf or at a bloated 340lbs.

All this being said, I don't think the extra collagen or gh helps either.

a lack of collagen makes loose skin, bags and wrinkles. but thats not part of the judging criteria for bodybuilding contests. which are a little extreme these days. and skin is a reflection of health. which doesnt win contests either.

 

[solo47]

Re: *EQ increases tendon strength*

I don't think collagen synthesis from EQ can cause "hyperplasia" of the skin or growth. In my experience my skin has been great on EQ. Everytime I take it my acne seems to clear up and my skin dryness goes away. I really don't think that's a coincidence.

BTW, for the record....the best cycle I've ever run as a bulker...


Dbol 40mg ED weeks 1-4
Test E 500mg EW weeks 1-14
Deca 500mg EW weeks 1-12
EQ 600mg EW weeks 1-12

gained a sick amount of mass with very little water weight. I'm going to be running a similar cycle soon but replacing Deca with Tren....I'm excited

Your upcoming cycle sounds it will be a blast! (Much like my favourite summer cycle, except that I don't go near dbol any more, for a number of reasons. I start with three weeks of Test p & Tren a instead, on top of the rest.)

Solo