low test 6 months post cycle. PLEASE HELP

[Bux]

Let me first start off by saying this is my first post on a forum ever, please direct me if this is in the wrong place by mistake. i have gone through and read the stickys, i did not find anything specifying about prohormones on this forum. i chose this forum because it seems to be the have the most knowledgeable posts in general and there just isnt as much info about this specific pro, other posts have been different enough that i dont want to follow a feed back for something that isnt at least dealing with the same compound. i apologize for skipping around, ill word/organize this post best i can.


stats 6'4 23yo 8 years training. very comfortable and familiar with diet/training.

precycle 215 lbs 15% body fat
post cycle 228 lbs 10% body fat


6-3-16 precycle
test 767 ng/dL

8-22-16 (day after last dose of epismash)
test 383 ng/dl
LH 9.2 mIU/mL
FSH 4.0 mIU/mL
free test 16.3 pg/mL

1-9-17
test 413
TSH 2.49
free test 11.7

last week the doctor called me with my most recent bloods that were done 2 weeks ago (mid febuary). I will have the paper work monday, but was told over the phone that my test is still at 383. I havent recovered at all. I also found out i have had a reasonably serious case of mono on my bloods in january which is magnifying all my symptoms and could inhibit recovery according to my general physician.

I ran a 3 week cycle of epismash (epistane hexadrone stack) august of '15. at 3 caps a day split in 3 doses and 2 caps a day for the last week. This was my first cycle of any kind. from everything i read this was a very mild compound. to make it short, i wasnt asking the right questions when i did my research and took guidance from the wrong people as well. i made ALOT of mistakes in this cycle, which i recognize now. now i need advice on how to get my levels back in order. i have no interest in another cycle after this experience, i just want to get as close to baseline as i can.

my purpose for running this cycle was to try to speed up a recovery from a shoulder surgery id had 8 months prior. stubborn stabilizer muscles, this cycle definietly accomplished what i wanted it to in the strength department. any size was just an added benefit. ive been training

typical sides, Zero libido after 2 days into the cycle (could have been in my head because i was expecting it, but i really dont think it was) lethargy set in heavily after the couple weeks and hit me like a train as soon as i came off. difficulty urinating starting the second week but nothing major, became much worse in the 3rd week so i decided to come off for fear of damage to my system. no dry joints fortunately, preloaded with joint pills.

for pct i ran an otc test booster for 8 weeks, (doc said stay away from all of it but i figured this could only help, but took his advice and avoided anything stronger like clomid for fear of sides) i had read so many posts about this being all you needed i decided i would stay away from anything prescription because it didnt seem to be needed. i do still have clomid on hand.

i went and saw my primary care doctor immediately after my cycle who advised me not to take anything else and let my test levels come back naturally over time and assured me they would. i had a mild prostate infection as well that he attributed my urination issue.

with all that being said, im still lethargic, mood swings are still present but not nearly as severe over the past month. decent sex drive but erections are just not what they should be. especially since im not planning on doing another cycle i want to get my levels back to where the should be so i can train naturally. the only goal with this cycle was to kick start the stabilizer muscles in my shoulder post op that take so long to build.

I have looked into doctor scalleys famous htpa restart but i just dont know it that is what i need. i have been unable to find a post close enough to my issues to be sure. i cant find an endo that will see me because my TSH levels as well as everything else are in "normal range" as well as my age. however i feel like garbage compared to pre cycle. i just want to make 100% sure im taking the right route to hopefully getting things leveled out before i do more damage trying to repair things incorrectly. what should be my next step?

 

[eryximachus]

This is a common problem. You only have 4 choices.

1) Power PCT
2) Long-term clomid use at say 25mg or 12.5 mg per day for 6-12 months
3) Wait
4) TRT

Having had these problems, and read these boards for many years, my advice is this:

Order some clomid from India. It's cheap. Take 25mg per day for a year. You sound like you have anxiety. I would consider going to a doc and getting some head meds.

Also, it should go without saying: never cycle again.

The reality is you will probably feel good in a few months and then think it's ok to hit it again. It's not.

 

[Bux]

Thanks for the reply. Trt is a last resort, i wouldnt even consider it unless my levels drop to the point where i cant function. I have NO desire to cycle again. Would a 6 week cycle of clomid at a higher dose be worth a shot like i should have immediatly post cycle before i try it at a long term dose or is it just to late for that?
Another thing i havent been able to come to a definitive answer on is testicular atrophy and shut down. I had some on cycle but nothing major. Sense then the boy have hung low 90% of the time without much sensitivity to temp like i used to be. Is this a sign they are somewhat functional and these are the levels im stuck with? It seems every other thread i ha e read with my symptoms, it has been accompanied by severe testicular atrophy.

 

[eryximachus]

Thanks for the reply. Trt is a last resort, i wouldnt even consider it unless my levels drop to the point where i cant function. I have NO desire to cycle again. Would a 6 week cycle of clomid at a higher dose be worth a shot like i should have immediatly post cycle before i try it at a long term dose or is it just to late for that?
Another thing i havent been able to come to a definitive answer on is testicular atrophy and shut down. I had some on cycle but nothing major. Sense then the boy have hung low 90% of the time without much sensitivity to temp like i used to be. Is this a sign they are somewhat functional and these are the levels im stuck with? It seems every other thread i ha e read with my symptoms, it has been accompanied by severe testicular atrophy.

Listen, bro, I've been following these boards for years and have been in the game even longer. I can tell you with absolute certainty that if you are taking the time to write about your testicles, you've got anxiety.

My advice to you is to run a low dose of clomid for a long period of time. If you keep thinking about your balls, you need to get on an antidepressant. I would stick with the basics. Diazepam for 1 month while waiting for a staple like Prozac to take effect.

Give it 6 months, and chances are you will be fine.

 

[Bux]

Anxiety is through the roof no doubt. Never had it prior to this cycle, at least nothing like this. Doc wrote me something, i was just concerned about drug interactions. Im considering 25mg a day for 6 months and see where that gets me before i try dr scallys pct. I appreciate any and all input.

 

[Dizzy]

Anxiety is through the roof no doubt. Never had it prior to this cycle, at least nothing like this. Doc wrote me something, i was just concerned about drug interactions. Im considering 25mg a day for 6 months and see where that gets me before i try dr scallys pct. I appreciate any and all input.

Good luck kid

 

[Old]

Disclaimer: Am not a doctor nor expert on recoveries ... so hopefully more experienced ones will correct this post if/where I am mistaken. But here are a couple cents ...

Another thing i havent been able to come to a definitive answer on is testicular atrophy and shut down.

One cannot conclude with a couple of blood tests. You will need to try stuff and give it time. Normally suppression is through the hypothalamus/pituitary and will be reflected by low LH and FSH values (see various mid-cycle bloods throughout the forum). If LH is normal or high, then the testicles are being sent the message to kick up production. If LH is low, then they are being told to produce only a little.

Immediately after your cycle you reported low T but elevated LH - which seems unusual:

8-22-16 (day after last dose of epismash)
test 383 ng/dl
LH 9.2 mIU/mL
FSH 4.0 mIU/mL
free test 16.3 pg/mL

Epismash seems poorly documented as to how it works. Perhaps another member has some pharmaceutical info that might explain this.

What are the results of your latest blood tests? The doc said T was still low ... what about LH, FSH, estrodiol, and free T? [ Note: When looking at free T, it should always be done "direct". There are 5 "calculation" formulas and all of them overstate free T. ]


Six months is a lot of suffering but you are not doomed. Without trying clomid or hcg, recover could take a long time. Calorie restricted diets to maintain low body fat often keep T low as well.

Anxiety kills T ... usually through the pituitary (low LH and high prolactin). Get good sleep, good food and chill - easier said than done. Wish you success!

 

[eryximachus]

Anxiety is through the roof no doubt. Never had it prior to this cycle, at least nothing like this. Doc wrote me something, i was just concerned about drug interactions. Im considering 25mg a day for 6 months and see where that gets me before i try dr scallys pct. I appreciate any and all input.

There are no significant drug interactions between the psych meds I suggested and clomid.

Having been in your place, I can tell you that you are likely not aware of just how severe your anxiety is. It will be affecting your life in ways you may not appreciate for some time, and by then it will be too late.

Try the Scally protocol if you want, but I really think it's only benefit is for people who are severely crashed as it gets you going quickly. There is no evidence of its long-term effects, whereas we have a lot of data on long-term clomid use thanks to all the Androxal research.

Your test levels are low, but they are in range. So, you are not shut down. The goal is to increase your test levels to a higher baseline. A low dose of clomid will do this without significant side effects.

 

[Bux]

This is a common problem. You only have 4 choices.

1) Power PCT
2) Long-term clomid use at say 25mg or 12.5 mg per day for 6-12 months
3) Wait
4) TRT

Having had these problems, and read these boards for many years, my advice is this:

Order some clomid from India. It's cheap. Take 25mg per day for a year. You sound like you have anxiety. I would consider going to a doc and getting some head meds.

Also, it should go without saying: never cycle again.

The reality is you will probably feel good in a few months and then think it's ok to hit it again. It's not.

Most recent Bloods just came back 3-6-17

Test.482
Free test 11.8
Prolactin 26.3

This is tbe first time i have asked for my Prolactin, almost double high end "normal" values. With that being said im skeptical about it being enough to kill my t recovery alone. Thoughts on running bromo along side clomid for a short time to see if that helps or would that be overkill for those levels?

 

[eryximachus]

Most recent Bloods just came back 3-6-17

Test.482
Free test 11.8
Prolactin 26.3

This is tbe first time i have asked for my Prolactin, almost double high end "normal" values. With that being said im skeptical about it being enough to kill my t recovery alone. Thoughts on running bromo along side clomid for a short time to see if that helps or would that be overkill for those levels?

Your test levels are only slightly below normal. What is often not discussed on steroid forums is it is unlikely your test levels will ever return to the levels they were before cycling. That said, you should "feel" fine at that test level, but obviously your recovery time and maximum musculature is somewhat lower than if your test level was say, 800 (which is like the 95% percentile).

At this stage, there is no reason for you to be worrying about testosterone levels or your testicles.

I don't remember the normal prolactin levels, but please - dopamine agonists are not drugs to be fucked around with. These drugs are for people with brain tumors, and carry serious cardiac risks. Further, unlike clomid, they do not "cure" anything. They will reduce your prolactin levels, but they will increase again when drug use is stopped.
Most likely, as another poster mentioned, your issue here is anxiety.

It is never, ever discussed on steroid forums, but all AAS carry a significant risk of permanent psychiatric problems, with anxiety being a very common one. Lifetime risk of alcoholism increases many times over normal for former AAS athletes, along with a number of other disorders.

I know it is hard to accept, but this is most likely the issue here.

How are you doing at your job? How about your relationships? Girlfriend? friends? family? These are the things that matter most. You need to make all your decisions based on that.

If you don't want to get drugs, change your routine. Stop lifting heavy weights. Start doing more cardio. Stop using caffeine and alcohol. Try yoga. Spend more time with friends and family. If you can, take a long vacation. Eat light.

 

[Bux]

Your test levels are only slightly below normal. What is often not discussed on steroid forums is it is unlikely your test levels will ever return to the levels they were before cycling. That said, you should "feel" fine at that test level, but obviously your recovery time and maximum musculature is somewhat lower than if your test level was say, 800 (which is like the 95% percentile).

At this stage, there is no reason for you to be worrying about testosterone levels or your testicles.

I don't remember the normal prolactin levels, but please - dopamine agonists are not drugs to be fucked around with. These drugs are for people with brain tumors, and carry serious cardiac risks. Further, unlike clomid, they do not "cure" anything. They will reduce your prolactin levels, but they will increase again when drug use is stopped.
Most likely, as another poster mentioned, your issue here is anxiety.

It is never, ever discussed on steroid forums, but all AAS carry a significant risk of permanent psychiatric problems, with anxiety being a very common one. Lifetime risk of alcoholism increases many times over normal for former AAS athletes, along with a number of other disorders.

I know it is hard to accept, but this is most likely the issue here.

How are you doing at your job? How about your relationships? Girlfriend? friends? family? These are the things that matter most. You need to make all your decisions based on that.

If you don't want to get drugs, change your routine. Stop lifting heavy weights. Start doing more cardio. Stop using caffeine and alcohol. Try yoga. Spend more time with friends and family. If you can, take a long vacation. Eat light.

Thank you so much! Very informitive post, im doing fine at work as well as other areas in my life. One major source of my stress was actually resolved yesterday. However i am still completely wiped out, im ALWAYS tired. I have stayed away from the weights for months due to simply just not having the energy as well as being sick. I believe this has compounded my stress levels simply because i have not had an outlet. It was also huge relief as well to see my levels are on the way up, my hope is they dont stop there.

 

[Bux]

My major concern at this point is the lethergy. Im just not functional.

 

[Old]

Its up 17% in 8 weeks, a somewhat typical 'natural' recovery rate. Didn't get LH to see if it was pituitary or testicle action ... but probably the latter. Otherwise, it looks like you are progressing though you feel lethargic.

Docs don't much care about high prolactin until its very high which indicates pituitary hyperplasia. Prolactin definitely affects T:

• "excess prolactin interferes with secretion of gonadotropin-releasing hormone" Hyperprolactinemia and Erectile Dysfunction
• "Prolactin within the normal reference ranges can act as a weak gonadotropin, but at the same time suppresses GnRH secretion." Prolactin - Wikipedia

Some benign reasons for elevated prolactin:

• Anxiety (need to chill out)
• Lack of sleep (improve sleep hygiene)
• Low CNS dopamine levels

Since it was high, just have it retested in a couple months. Don't bother with D2 agonists right now. The mention above about cardiac risks with some dopamine meds is true - but that is long term use causing heart valve growth. In your case, rocking the boat with yet another med might not be so great. Since you have decent sex drive and manageable erections, you are already ahead of many.

Anxiety will feed lethargy. Anxiety is like nailing your foot to the floor then running around in a circle - nothing gets done. So in fact you are more in control of the situation than you realize. Find your outlet(s) and you get it under your belt.

 

[Bux]

Thats what i am scared to do, i dont want to do any further damage. Hence why i started this thread. I somehow over looked posting my bloods from 2-20-17. My lowest numbers yet.
Test 361
Free test 10.3
Lh 4.5
These results were only weeks apart (had bloods done for an std screen later on. Only reason i had them done so close together. Doc tested my levels last time since i was having blood drawn anyway.) All my blood work has been done at a similar time of the day. I havent seen a post post with such a large fluctuation on levels this close together.

Goimg to get my scrip filled for the anxiety meds tomorrow to get a hold on that. Are there any negitive effects a long term clomid run could have, chances of anything other than helping my recovery?

 

[Old]

Don't worry about fluctuations in your T. They can vary dramatically depending on activity, diet, sex, sleep and the days stress. Think of it like the stock market: daily price fluctuations (sometimes dramatic) but you are investing for the long term. Not many people really have the stomach for stocks - so don't make the mistake of micromanaging each report and developing panic.

Here is a personal example: LH=2.5, FSH=2.8, T=248. Two months later LH=2.5, FSH=2.7, T=617. T went up because of a newly prescribed med but doesn't explain the same LH reading producing 2 1/2 times as much T. But since the half life of LH is 20 minutes, probably just caught it at a quiet moment.

Hormones pulsate so when the half-life is short, readings fluctuate a lot. The half life of endogenous T varies between 34 minutes and 4 hours. That is why testing at the same in morning when it is highest is important ... and that morning blood draw will vary depending also on what time you actually got up. If one thinks about this stuff too much, it is frustrating.

What antidepressant did the doc prescribe you?
Do you have any estrodial readings?


There are studies using 25mg clomid daily and consider it safe http://brazjurol.com.br/july_august_2012/DaRos_512_518.pdf Throughout the forum you can read peoples experiences ... but remember many use 50 to 150 mg a day so side effects would be much greater than in studies.

 

[Bux]

thanks everyone for the information, its nice to hear all is not lost from others who have experience. Im extremely grateful. i decided to take a week off from this thread as well as forums in general to just try to give my mind a rest if thats even possible. i am going to document my recovery on clomid best i can, maybe it will be of use to someone else.

i am on day 4 of clomid @25mg ED. Tonight is the first night i have been back online looking at anything related. Anxiety seems to be much more in check after starting the clomid, or much less noticeable and not nearly as severe if i have it. I find this odd considering ive seen so many other posts saying they experienced more anxiety while on. my GP perscribed miratzapine @15mg daily, i am waiting to introduce this until i know how the clomid is going to effect me.


However i am concerned due to the fact that mood swings are coming back as well as my sex drive is diminishing again. not nearly as acute as it was on cycle or immediately after though. Considering my drive rivaled the best its been in years, its upsetting. function/endurance was improving as well but is now digressing. function was probably somewhere nearing 60% before the clomid.

thus far i have experienced what i would consider to be severe depression, but only for hours at a time. after reminding myself that its the drug i can talk myself out of it. however if it were to hang around it would not be in the best interest of my mental well being to continue with the clomid. for now it is manageable as long as i keep my head right.

what im getting to is, if clomid is doing its job of raising LH to improve natural test production; shouldnt everything be getting better as my T rises, not worse? ive read a lot of posts with people having these problems during pct, but its immediately after cycle so it would make sense. I have already had the chance to improve some, the clomid is the new variable. Is there any chance the clomid could be working against me in some way? My plan was to have bloods done again in 2 weeks from my first dose but if there is reason i can have them done monday in an effort to prevent any further damage. i need to have bloods done anyway to check my mono levels that were still elevated a couple weeks ago but much better than they had been.

Lethargy is still crippling, i cant get anything done. i have no doubt mono is still contributing to this but my mono levels are much better than they were. thus far its still hell dragging myself out of bed, i sleep until the last second before i have to be at work. nothing else is important enough to get me out of bed. weekends i sleep late into the afternoon, extremely frustrated when i finally get out of bed that ive wasted my entire day off. im not really sure how to explain it other than just extreme apathy. energy levels once i am out of bed are reasonable.

also i think its worth explaining, i work 56+ hours a week, every week as an overhead crane operator among other tasks. its a very demanding job, i work nights as well so my schedule is crazy at best. my sleep habits have never been healthy but its never been an issue. even lifting natty i would train on only a couple hours of sleep before a 12 hour shift at work and still reap benifits. obviously not what they would have been with more rest, but progress none the less. during the cycle i pushed things as far is it would go averaging 4 hours of sleep nightly, training 8-9 times a week working long hours. sleeping 10+ hours is a complete 180 for me and its completely involuntarily for the most part.

after being diagnosed with chronic mono as well as nerve damage flaring up from my previous surgery, i slowed down and eventually stopped lifting per doctors direction of resting as much as possible; as this is the only thing that can be done for mono. working the hours i do, has surely prolonged that but no one else is going to pay my rent, so i keep pushing.


once the lethargy subsides, what should my training look like while trying to recover on clomid? do i take the same approach as a typical pct; lifting light and eating clean without heavily restricting colories like many suggest during pct. Does the time difference

 

[BirdieNumNum]

Watch your blood pressure mate

 

[Bux]

Watch your blood pressure mate

Agreed, but why do you bring that up soecifically. My blood pressure has always been very good. It did get on the high side on cycle but nothing alarming. It could have been the added stress on my body training and lack of sleep as much as the PH. I havent read anything concerning blood pressure and clomid use?

 

[master.on]

Let me first start off by saying this is my first post on a forum ever, please direct me if this is in the wrong place by mistake. i have gone through and read the stickys, i did not find anything specifying about prohormones on this forum. i chose this forum because it seems to be the have the most knowledgeable posts in general and there just isnt as much info about this specific pro, other posts have been different enough that i dont want to follow a feed back for something that isnt at least dealing with the same compound. i apologize for skipping around, ill word/organize this post best i can.


stats 6'4 23yo 8 years training. very comfortable and familiar with diet/training.

precycle 215 lbs 15% body fat
post cycle 228 lbs 10% body fat


6-3-16 precycle
test 767 ng/dL

8-22-16 (day after last dose of epismash)
test 383 ng/dl
LH 9.2 mIU/mL
FSH 4.0 mIU/mL
free test 16.3 pg/mL

1-9-17
test 413
TSH 2.49
free test 11.7

last week the doctor called me with my most recent bloods that were done 2 weeks ago (mid febuary). I will have the paper work monday, but was told over the phone that my test is still at 383. I havent recovered at all. I also found out i have had a reasonably serious case of mono on my bloods in january which is magnifying all my symptoms and could inhibit recovery according to my general physician.

I ran a 3 week cycle of epismash (epistane hexadrone stack) august of '15. at 3 caps a day split in 3 doses and 2 caps a day for the last week. This was my first cycle of any kind. from everything i read this was a very mild compound. to make it short, i wasnt asking the right questions when i did my research and took guidance from the wrong people as well. i made ALOT of mistakes in this cycle, which i recognize now. now i need advice on how to get my levels back in order. i have no interest in another cycle after this experience, i just want to get as close to baseline as i can.

my purpose for running this cycle was to try to speed up a recovery from a shoulder surgery id had 8 months prior. stubborn stabilizer muscles, this cycle definietly accomplished what i wanted it to in the strength department. any size was just an added benefit. ive been training

typical sides, Zero libido after 2 days into the cycle (could have been in my head because i was expecting it, but i really dont think it was) lethargy set in heavily after the couple weeks and hit me like a train as soon as i came off. difficulty urinating starting the second week but nothing major, became much worse in the 3rd week so i decided to come off for fear of damage to my system. no dry joints fortunately, preloaded with joint pills.

for pct i ran an otc test booster for 8 weeks, (doc said stay away from all of it but i figured this could only help, but took his advice and avoided anything stronger like clomid for fear of sides) i had read so many posts about this being all you needed i decided i would stay away from anything prescription because it didnt seem to be needed. i do still have clomid on hand.

i went and saw my primary care doctor immediately after my cycle who advised me not to take anything else and let my test levels come back naturally over time and assured me they would. i had a mild prostate infection as well that he attributed my urination issue.

with all that being said, im still lethargic, mood swings are still present but not nearly as severe over the past month. decent sex drive but erections are just not what they should be. especially since im not planning on doing another cycle i want to get my levels back to where the should be so i can train naturally. the only goal with this cycle was to kick start the stabilizer muscles in my shoulder post op that take so long to build.

I have looked into doctor scalleys famous htpa restart but i just dont know it that is what i need. i have been unable to find a post close enough to my issues to be sure. i cant find an endo that will see me because my TSH levels as well as everything else are in "normal range" as well as my age. however i feel like garbage compared to pre cycle. i just want to make 100% sure im taking the right route to hopefully getting things leveled out before i do more damage trying to repair things incorrectly. what should be my next step?

I'm glad to help

1 Please post the results along with the reference ranges.
2 You don't mention an Estradiol (E2) blood test do you have one? If not, get it done
3 If E2 is high, use an Aromatase Inhibitor. I personally prefer tiny dose Letrozole, 1.25 mg (usually half a tab) a week, retest in a month or 2.
4 If E2 is low or borderline low (the most common with low testosterone) you may need to use HCG 250 IU 2x/week would be a great but still low dose start. Retest in a month, watch for E2 getting high as you may need to add an AI

 

[Bux]

I'm glad to help

1 Please post the results along with the reference ranges.
2 You don't mention an Estradiol (E2) blood test do you have one? If not, get it done
3 If E2 is high, use an Aromatase Inhibitor. I personally prefer tiny dose Letrozole, 1.25 mg (usually half a tab) a week, retest in a month or 2.
4 If E2 is low or borderline low (the most common with low testosterone) you may need to use HCG 250 IU 2x/week would be a great but still low dose start. Retest in a month, watch for E2 getting high as you may need to add an AI

I have another appointment to have blood drawn this coming Monday and i will post the most the results. I dont have e2 results, i will ask for them this time. Thus far my mood has leveled out after thr first couple days, anxiety is much more managable as well. Libido is about the same (prior to clomid, post cycle), drive isnt what it was prior to clomid though. Little worse. However the lethergy is still crippling. Im posting from my phone but when i get off work i will get all the reading/ranges up tothis point together in one post.