low test 6 months post cycle. PLEASE HELP

[Roger rabbit]

Your test levels are only slightly below normal. What is often not discussed on steroid forums is it is unlikely your test levels will ever return to the levels they were before cycling. That said, you should "feel" fine at that test level, but obviously your recovery time and maximum musculature is somewhat lower than if your test level was say, 800 (which is like the 95% percentile).

At this stage, there is no reason for you to be worrying about testosterone levels or your testicles.

I don't remember the normal prolactin levels, but please - dopamine agonists are not drugs to be fucked around with. These drugs are for people with brain tumors, and carry serious cardiac risks. Further, unlike clomid, they do not "cure" anything. They will reduce your prolactin levels, but they will increase again when drug use is stopped.
Most likely, as another poster mentioned, your issue here is anxiety.

It is never, ever discussed on steroid forums, but all AAS carry a significant risk of permanent psychiatric problems, with anxiety being a very common one. Lifetime risk of alcoholism increases many times over normal for former AAS athletes, along with a number of other disorders.

I know it is hard to accept, but this is most likely the issue here.

How are you doing at your job? How about your relationships? Girlfriend? friends? family? These are the things that matter most. You need to make all your decisions based on that.

If you don't want to get drugs, change your routine. Stop lifting heavy weights. Start doing more cardio. Stop using caffeine and alcohol. Try yoga. Spend more time with friends and family. If you can, take a long vacation. Eat light.

This is some solid advice here!!! [emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]

 

[Dogtown2017]

I have another appointment to have blood drawn this coming Monday and i will post the most the results. I dont have e2 results, i will ask for them this time. Thus far my mood has leveled out after thr first couple days, anxiety is much more managable as well. Libido is about the same (prior to clomid, post cycle), drive isnt what it was prior to clomid though. Little worse. However the lethergy is still crippling. Im posting from my phone but when i get off work i will get all the reading/ranges up tothis point together in one post.

Hope everything gets straightened out bro! Keep us posted!

 

[Bux]

i have taken some time off from looking at this forum, largely because my anxiety is in check and i dont feel the need to obsess over things as i had been before. i have also decided against "head meds" for the time being, im improving wihtout them at this point. things are getting better as a whole. I FINALLY found an endo willing to see me, however the appt went pretty much as expected. clomid is considered off label for men and not fda approved so she was hesitant to offer any sort of advice other than advising me to taper off. more or less she is making channels available for me to keep tabs on my on recovery and blood work without much advice. all my levels are elevated, that being said nothing is dangerously high, and the labs were also taken at 9 am vs 12 pm which i believe made a difference as well. these are my most current labs.


test serum: 1066 ng/dL ref 348-1197
cortisol 13.7 ug/dL
TSH 3.090 uiU/mL ref 0.450-4.500
LH: 10.6 mIU/mL ref:1.7-8.6
FSH serum: 6.3 mIU/mL ref: 1.5-12.4
prolactin 14.9 ng/mL ref: 4.0-15.2
estradiol: 54.9 pg/mL ref: 7.6-42.6
free test: 28.5 pg/mL ref: 9.3-26.5
estrogens, total: 127 ref 40-115

these bloods were taken after 12 days of clomid @25mg ED. per my endo the estradiol and estrogens are not alarmingly high at this point. these levels are often seen in obese men. however this is still early so im going to keep close watch on it. still planning on a 6 month run but im unsure what my taper should look like but will research that more when i have time this weekend. if anyone has run clomid this long, feed back would greatly be appreciated. id aslo like to mention that a lot of my symptoms are related to mono which has really complicated my recovery. at this point i expect that to be my source of lethergy considering how my levels look now. my endo also mentioned that night shift has put a lot of young guys levels in the gutter, common in firefighters, ems and other occupations that keep strange hours like i do. at this point im inclined to believe, that between my mono, minimal rest, and backwards ass hours have greatly hindered and prolonged my recovery. anyone have feed back or experience

I'm glad to help

1 Please post the results along with the reference ranges.
2 You don't mention an Estradiol (E2) blood test do you have one? If not, get it done
3 If E2 is high, use an Aromatase Inhibitor. I personally prefer tiny dose Letrozole, 1.25 mg (usually half a tab) a week, retest in a month or 2.
4 If E2 is low or borderline low (the most common with low testosterone) you may need to use HCG 250 IU 2x/week would be a great but still low dose start. Retest in a month, watch for E2 getting high as you may need to add an AI

Don't worry about fluctuations in your T. They can vary dramatically depending on activity, diet, sex, sleep and the days stress. Think of it like the stock market: daily price fluctuations (sometimes dramatic) but you are investing for the long term. Not many people really have the stomach for stocks - so don't make the mistake of micromanaging each report and developing panic.

Here is a personal example: LH=2.5, FSH=2.8, T=248. Two months later LH=2.5, FSH=2.7, T=617. T went up because of a newly prescribed med but doesn't explain the same LH reading producing 2 1/2 times as much T. But since the half life of LH is 20 minutes, probably just caught it at a quiet moment.

Hormones pulsate so when the half-life is short, readings fluctuate a lot. The half life of endogenous T varies between 34 minutes and 4 hours. That is why testing at the same in morning when it is highest is important ... and that morning blood draw will vary depending also on what time you actually got up. If one thinks about this stuff too much, it is frustrating.

What antidepressant did the doc prescribe you?
Do you have any estrodial readings?


There are studies using 25mg clomid daily and consider it safe http://brazjurol.com.br/july_august_2012/DaRos_512_518.pdf Throughout the forum you can read peoples experiences ... but remember many use 50 to 150 mg a day so side effects would be much greater than in studies.

 

[Old]

Your clomid is doing exactly what one would want.

The estrodiol only seems high. That is because clomid partially blocks receptors from feeling the full effect -- hence the class of drug is Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM). Its like wearing sunglasses - everything appears darker but the sun is just as bright. So don't worry about the obese comment.

Looking at your blood values indicate that the hypothalamus is working correctly (sending out plenty of LH and FSH) and the testicles are responding with a good output of T.

While your endo isn't so familiar with clomid, she will work with you and is also right about night-shift, long hours, and mono.

 

[master.on]

Your clomid is doing exactly what one would want.

The estrodiol only seems high. That is because clomid partially blocks receptors from feeling the full effect -- hence the class of drug is Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM). Its like wearing sunglasses - everything appears darker but the sun is just as bright. So don't worry about the obese comment.

Looking at your blood values indicate that the hypothalamus is working correctly (sending out plenty of LH and FSH) and the testicles are responding with a good output of T.

While your endo isn't so familiar with clomid, she will work with you and is also right about night-shift, long hours, and mono.

If Estradiol is high then an Aromatase Inhibitor is a better option because

1 High Estradiol can still interact with some Estrogen receptors, even with high SERMs dosages
Estrogen receptor beta in breast cancer. - PubMed - NCBI
Differential response of estrogen receptor alpha and estrogen receptor beta to partial estrogen agonists/antagonists. - PubMed - NCBI

2 SERMs side effects can become permanent with long term use.
SERMs aren't meant for long term use in males (just for females, and just to fight cancer, a life-threatening disease).

 

[eryximachus]

If Estradiol is high then an Aromatase Inhibitor is a better option because

1 High Estradiol can still interact with some Estrogen receptors, even with high SERMs dosages
Estrogen receptor beta in breast cancer. - PubMed - NCBI
Differential response of estrogen receptor alpha and estrogen receptor beta to partial estrogen agonists/antagonists. - PubMed - NCBI

2 SERMs side effects can become permanent with long term use.
SERMs aren't meant for long term use in males (just for females, and just to fight cancer, a life-threatening disease).

Clomid is for fertility. And we do have long-term testing data for males thanks to Androxal development.

 

[Nicolaus]

This is a common problem. You only have 4 choices.

1) Power PCT
2) Long-term clomid use at say 25mg or 12.5 mg per day for 6-12 months
3) Wait
4) TRT

Having had these problems, and read these boards for many years, my advice is this:

Order some clomid from India. It's cheap. Take 25mg per day for a year. You sound like you have anxiety. I would consider going to a doc and getting some head meds.

Also, it should go without saying: never cycle again.

The reality is you will probably feel good in a few months and then think it's ok to hit it again. It's not.

Can Nolvadex long term work as well? Clomid seems to cause profound emotional sides for me

 

[Nicolaus]

Listen, bro, I've been following these boards for years and have been in the game even longer. I can tell you with absolute certainty that if you are taking the time to write about your testicles, you've got anxiety.

My advice to you is to run a low dose of clomid for a long period of time. If you keep thinking about your balls, you need to get on an antidepressant. I would stick with the basics. Diazepam for 1 month while waiting for a staple like Prozac to take effect.

Give it 6 months, and chances are you will be fine.

What are your thoughts on propanolol for anxiety?

 

[Nicolaus]

i have taken some time off from looking at this forum, largely because my anxiety is in check and i dont feel the need to obsess over things as i had been before. i have also decided against "head meds" for the time being, im improving wihtout them at this point. things are getting better as a whole. I FINALLY found an endo willing to see me, however the appt went pretty much as expected. clomid is considered off label for men and not fda approved so she was hesitant to offer any sort of advice other than advising me to taper off. more or less she is making channels available for me to keep tabs on my on recovery and blood work without much advice. all my levels are elevated, that being said nothing is dangerously high, and the labs were also taken at 9 am vs 12 pm which i believe made a difference as well. these are my most current labs.


test serum: 1066 ng/dL ref 348-1197
cortisol 13.7 ug/dL
TSH 3.090 uiU/mL ref 0.450-4.500
LH: 10.6 mIU/mL ref:1.7-8.6
FSH serum: 6.3 mIU/mL ref: 1.5-12.4
prolactin 14.9 ng/mL ref: 4.0-15.2
estradiol: 54.9 pg/mL ref: 7.6-42.6
free test: 28.5 pg/mL ref: 9.3-26.5
estrogens, total: 127 ref 40-115

these bloods were taken after 12 days of clomid @25mg ED. per my endo the estradiol and estrogens are not alarmingly high at this point. these levels are often seen in obese men. however this is still early so im going to keep close watch on it. still planning on a 6 month run but im unsure what my taper should look like but will research that more when i have time this weekend. if anyone has run clomid this long, feed back would greatly be appreciated. id aslo like to mention that a lot of my symptoms are related to mono which has really complicated my recovery. at this point i expect that to be my source of lethergy considering how my levels look now. my endo also mentioned that night shift has put a lot of young guys levels in the gutter, common in firefighters, ems and other occupations that keep strange hours like i do. at this point im inclined to believe, that between my mono, minimal rest, and backwards ass hours have greatly hindered and prolonged my recovery. anyone have feed back or experience

Holy shit!

Your test, fsh, lh, and free test increases dramatically. You were only taking clomid? And the antidepressant?

Were you taking clomid from a pharmacy or did you purchase online?

Also, do you feel much better? Is your sex drive better?

Glad things worked out for you

I'm currently trying hcg monotherapy

 

[eryximachus]

Can Nolvadex long term work as well? Clomid seems to cause profound emotional sides for me

If you are having side effects from Clomid, your dose is too high. Try 12.5mg per day or even EOD. You don't need high doses for it to work.

There is little evidence that Nolvadex increases gonadotropin release significantly. This is why it is not tested as a TRT alternative, unlike Clomid.

 

[eryximachus]

What are your thoughts on propanolol for anxiety?

Propranolol is a beta blocker. It only will affect the physical effects of anxiety, particularly due to withdrawal from depressants. It will not reduce psychological effects of anxiety, i.e. obsessive thoughts, worry, rumination, etc. If you have obsessive thoughts about your testicles, it won't help you.

 

[Bux]

just a general update, libido is way up, function is a 6 or 7 out of 10. anxiety is SO much better and easier to manage. just an example, not long after cycle developed TMJ (a form of lock jaw) from stress/anxiety. just to function i was taking 800 mg of ibuprofen every 6 hours and had to wear a mouth guard to sleep through the night. i havent worn my mouth gaurd in at least 2 weeks now and wake up with no pain which indicates im not clenching my jaw in my sleep anymore. i cant help but think the stress/anxiety was directly related to my levels in some way.energy levels while im awake are good, sleep habits are still trash but crediting that to the mono now.

the labs ive seen, in many cases taking much more clomid than i am; havent gotten numbers nearly as high as mine. they also had a lower starting point so that would make sense, this is a good sign of returning levels closer to 800 where there were before my cycle?

id love to hear input from someone who has tried the 6 month restart post cycle vs trying to come off of trt like most of these threads

Your clomid is doing exactly what one would want.

The estrodiol only seems high. That is because clomid partially blocks receptors from feeling the full effect -- hence the class of drug is Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM). Its like wearing sunglasses - everything appears darker but the sun is just as bright. So don't worry about the obese comment.

Looking at your blood values indicate that the hypothalamus is working correctly (sending out plenty of LH and FSH) and the testicles are responding with a good output of T.

While your endo isn't so familiar with clomid, she will work with you and is also right about night-shift, long hours, and mono.

If Estradiol is high then an Aromatase Inhibitor is a better option because

1 High Estradiol can still interact with some Estrogen receptors, even with high SERMs dosages
Estrogen receptor beta in breast cancer. - PubMed - NCBI
Differential response of estrogen receptor alpha and estrogen receptor beta to partial estrogen agonists/antagonists. - PubMed - NCBI

2 SERMs side effects can become permanent with long term use.
SERMs aren't meant for long term use in males (just for females, and just to fight cancer, a life-threatening disease).

i dont think in most cases 6 months would be considered long term, and as eryximachus said there are studies where this has been used effectively long term without serious risk. unless there is something i have missed somewhere, visual sides seem to be the only thing i have found that has potential to be permanent in any capacity. i havent had any sort of experience like that at a 25mg ED dose. i plan to start a taper at 14 weeks to 25mg EOD for the remainder of the 6 months.

I have yet to see a restart like this anywhere other than guys coming off trt who had much worse numbers than mind. i hope my numbers hold. at this point aside from the lethergy due to the mono i feel great for the most part. libido is great, stamina is decent as well as recovery time. just based on my own experience, i think it may be possible many times when guys experience low libido/drive on clomid it may have more to do with the cycle than the clomid. just a guess considering i had such a length of time between pct and cycle.

looking for threads on an ai, i will have bloods done again in 9 days to check e2 levels to make sure everything is ok there. am i correct in my research that high e2 coming off clomid could just drag my test right back down if its too high after discontinuing the clomid? my endo suggested a taper lasting no longer than 6 months but i have yet to find a tread with a taper? is there any reason to taper off vs 25md ED for 6 months?

 

[Bux]

id also like to add i have yet to use anything other than clomid. no anti depressants, herbs or any other supplements for anxiety, libido or mood.

 

[Bux]

Ok, I realize I'm bumping an old thread but I see no reason to make a new one... it' now been over a year since my cycle, I've felt like garbage ever since. Spent literally thousands on Dr visits and tests. Seen a lot of Drs that were of no help as well.

I ran the Clomid for about 4 months before I ran out. Starting at 50 mg ed eventually taperting d own to 25 mg every 3 days ( assuming a 5 day half life). Levels looked good. >1100 at 25mg ed. Point being my levels were 430 ng/dl on a scale of 300-900. This was taken in ther afternoon mind you so i know it' not ideal. However my base line was almost 800 at 4pm after a large meal with very little sleep.
**this is a different scale than my other labs, I'm assuming the actual number is the only important thing here because the unit of measure is the same??
My LH is also way down 3.x? Compared to >9 on all my other Bw. I know this could have just been a bad time to catch it, I just wondered if that could potentially mean desensitization to the lydig cells?

I have all the low test symptoms, severe depression, mood swings, sub par erections and the biggest one being I'm always tired. I usually sleep 10 to 12 hours. If I get less I need a nap or I crash.

Prior to and during my cycle I was literally one of the highest functioning people I know. Required little sleep, extremely motivated and driven, now I could care less about things that have always been important to me.

I will also put out there that I've been diagnosed with bipolar and ocd recently however this is also common a misdiagnosis for low t. I don't believe that to be the case here but I believe it is the cause for the severity of my symptoms like I've never had. If someone could chime in with personal experience with bipolar that would be great.


So with that background info my question is where should I go from here? Is TRT my only option? I'm
24, I'll be 25 in June so that' a HUGE commitment but I can't continue to live this way. Even at that i realize my levels are "normal" however they are not even close to normal cokmpared to my baseline for ME. I will upload complete Bw sometime tomorrow when I can get my hands on it as I'm not at home.

 

[Domino23]

Ok, I realize I'm bumping an old thread but I see no reason to make a new one... it' now been over a year since my cycle, I've felt like garbage ever since. Spent literally thousands on Dr visits and tests. Seen a lot of Drs that were of no help as well.

I ran the Clomid for about 4 months before I ran out. Starting at 50 mg ed eventually taperting d own to 25 mg every 3 days ( assuming a 5 day half life). Levels looked good. >1100 at 25mg ed. Point being my levels were 430 ng/dl on a scale of 300-900. This was taken in ther afternoon mind you so i know it' not ideal. However my base line was almost 800 at 4pm after a large meal with very little sleep.
**this is a different scale than my other labs, I'm assuming the actual number is the only important thing here because the unit of measure is the same??
My LH is also way down 3.x? Compared to >9 on all my other Bw. I know this could have just been a bad time to catch it, I just wondered if that could potentially mean desensitization to the lydig cells?

I have all the low test symptoms, severe depression, mood swings, sub par erections and the biggest one being I'm always tired. I usually sleep 10 to 12 hours. If I get less I need a nap or I crash.

Prior to and during my cycle I was literally one of the highest functioning people I know. Required little sleep, extremely motivated and driven, now I could care less about things that have always been important to me.

I will also put out there that I've been diagnosed with bipolar and ocd recently however this is also common a misdiagnosis for low t. I don't believe that to be the case here but I believe it is the cause for the severity of my symptoms like I've never had. If someone could chime in with personal experience with bipolar that would be great.


So with that background info my question is where should I go from here? Is TRT my only option? I'm
24, I'll be 25 in June so that' a HUGE commitment but I can't continue to live this way. Even at that i realize my levels are "normal" however they are not even close to normal cokmpared to my baseline for ME. I will upload complete Bw sometime tomorrow when I can get my hands on it as I'm not at home.

From my personal experience I wouldn't choose trt if your trying to have a kid at some point in your life..

 

[Bux]

From my personal experience I wouldn't choose trt if your trying to have a kid at some point in your life..

This is weighing on my mind heavily. Nothing I want to rush into but my quality of life has been in the gutter for the past year. If that's the trade off I see 2 options. Feel like shit and struggle with even small tasks for the rest of my life and have kids down the road or feel better and have to chance of not having kids down the road.

 

[EcpertRealistic]

for pct i ran an otc test booster for 8 weeks,

I think the booster screwed your libido. Specially if it have tongkat Ali in its ingredients. Feels like Viagra at first but then it hits you with a deca dick like effect. Other test boosters may cause the same problems if abused or run too long.


You will recuperate over time but it can take months to fully recover without pct.

A pct can speed the process. Nolva 40 Clomid 50 always work for me.

Even clomid and nolva can cause libido problems if abused.

Nolva is an important part of a pct if you want to restore natural levels.

 

[Bux]

 

[Bux]

I think the booster screwed your libido. Specially if it have tongkat Ali in its ingredients. Feels like Viagra at first but then it hits you with a deca dick like effect. Other test boosters may cause the same problems if abused or run too long.


You will recuperate over time but it can take months to fully recover without pct.

A pct can speed the process. Nolva 40 Clomid 50 always work for me.

Even clomid and nolva can cause libido problems if abused.

Nolva is an important part of a pct if you want to restore natural levels.

While libido Is an issue, it' not the biggest one. My energy levels are completely shot. I' also a year into reecovery... going to a new urologist on the 20th. I' hoping to gather some info here to keep in mind when I go. I just want my life back and function normally again. I wouldn' wish this on anyone. I did a "pct" 6 months after the fact although it didn't involve novla. The depression the Clomid gave me the first few days was almost unbearable. Unfortunately nolva is no good for long term use, otherwise I'd give it a shot.

 

[Old]

For future reference, get hormone blood draws in the morning (7-9am) ... unless you are a night worker and 13:58 is your morning (ask doctor about timing)

That aside, E2 is low (depression/energy) and prolactin is high (even more then last time). Prolactin is elevated when dopamine activity to the pituitary is low ... which causes prolactin to rise. It also causes a reduction of GnRH, thus lower T, thus lower E2.

You trial of clomid shows that your whole hypothalamus/pituitary/gonad system actually works. So something is telling the hypothalamus to back off.

Talk to you doc about trying a low dose dopamine agonist. Low dopamine will also cause anxiety and fatigue. There are plenty. Sinemet 100/25 (levodopa/carbadopa) is broad and will lower prolactin. 1/2 pill 2 or 3 time a day would normally be plenty. Cabergoline is very strong and targeted to D2 (the type of receptor involved here) and 1/2 pill a week will probably put you below normal - overkill. Note: dopamine agonists are generally pro-sexual.

Do you have RLS or ADD type symptoms? Wellbutrin SR is an antidepressant that works with dopamine. If the doc gives you that, then start with just 1/2 pill in the morning. Wellbutrin also directly stimulate NE which can increase anxiety (no fun).

At any rate, this is an angle to try. Ask for just 1 week trial if they are reluctant. This type of thing works quickly. Why you have (if you have) dopamine weakness now is not known. It is possible that 2a 3a-epithio 17a methyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-androstane was toxic to your dopamine system. Or could be a coincidence.