Maintenance after bulking?

[1lifter23]

I've just completed a 20 week bulk on 500test/400primo/300npp, and made great strength and size gains. I'm up 25lbs minimum on all compound lifts for reps, and have gained 30lbs of bodyweight, while managing to keep SOME shadow of abs and veins. I'm quite happy with my progress but I'm conflicted on how to continue. I will be on "trt" at 200mg/week for some months, and will be getting bloodwork done down the line to make sure everything is in check.

My question is more diet related, and I am wondering how long I should be in a maintenance phase, if at all, before starting a cut. I've read it's important to "let the muscle mature" or "to maintain for some months to make the new tissue stick", but I'm unsure if there is much truth to those claims. I hate the feeling of not progressing towards a goal, either getting bigger or leaner, so this whole maintenance phase isn't appealing to me. I'm eating well and holding my weight and training hard, but I'd like something to work towards. Please let me know if a holding period after a bulk to "help keep added tissue" is worth my while, or if I should jump into my cut. Thank you!

 

[BigTomJ]

So long as you didn't get sloppy fat, you don't have a competitive reason to cut, and you aren't having digestion/gut/insulin resistance issues, there's no reason to cut at all.

Just go into your cruise with the same effort and intensity as you had on cycle and you should keep pretty much every bit of lean tissue you built unless you're an Olympia level giant.

 

[1lifter23]

So long as you didn't get sloppy fat, you don't have a competitive reason to cut, and you aren't having digestion/gut/insulin resistance issues, there's no reason to cut at all.

Just go into your cruise with the same effort and intensity as you had on cycle and you should keep pretty much every bit of lean tissue you built unless you're an Olympia level giant.

Well, I was planning on cutting to make room for another long bulk. My digestion and everything is fine, but I don't have much room to add more fat without getting past my point of comfort.

 

[BigTomJ]

Well, I was planning on cutting to make room for another long bulk. My digestion and everything is fine, but I don't have much room to add more fat without getting past my point of comfort.

I don't do traditional bulk and cut. Bulk and cut is largely counterproductive, there's no real reason to get sloppy, and if you don't get sloppy you don't really have to cut.


If it were me, I'd dial calories back maybe 200-300 from your carb and fat sources and then reassess if that's too low or too high in like 5-6 weeks after everything is cleared out of your system.

Try to continue to progress and push through your maintenance phase and just adjust your cals to maintain a comfortable BF level throughout.

 

[TUTfan]

Gains you would have made in 10-12 weeks. 30lbs, so maybe 10lbs of muscle, not impressive for a cycle that long. Mad water retention and lots of fat. Bulking is for the past.

 

[nightprowler7]

Gains you would have made in 10-12 weeks. 30lbs, so maybe 10lbs of muscle, not impressive for a cycle that long. Mad water retention and lots of fat. Bulking is for the past.

A pound of muscle a week isn't impressive? Lol

 

[Fattyone]

John Jewett recently covered this topic on his J3U podcast

 

[1lifter23]

I don't do traditional bulk and cut. Bulk and cut is largely counterproductive, there's no real reason to get sloppy, and if you don't get sloppy you don't really have to cut.


If it were me, I'd dial calories back maybe 200-300 from your carb and fat sources and then reassess if that's too low or too high in like 5-6 weeks after everything is cleared out of your system.

Try to continue to progress and push through your maintenance phase and just adjust your cals to maintain a comfortable BF level throughout.

Thanks for the response. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it sounds to me like you're suggesting somewhat of a recomp? I've always read and been told that it's more efficient to bulk and cut, but maybe this is old information. I've for sure realized that a much smaller surplus is better when bulking, and I had put on far too much fat on past bulks compared to this, but I was still under the impression that a slight surplus is better for growth than just maintenance.

 

[1lifter23]

John Jewett recently covered this topic on his J3U podcast

Would this be EP.124? I used to keep up with his content but haven't had as much time to sit down and digest it lately.

 

[Fattyone]

Would this be EP.124? I used to keep up with his content but haven't had as much time to sit down and digest it lately.

No idea. Just looked and he may have covered it in 92. Honestly not sure but I know he has lol

 

[BigTomJ]

Thanks for the response. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it sounds to me like you're suggesting somewhat of a recomp? I've always read and been told that it's more efficient to bulk and cut, but maybe this is old information. I've for sure realized that a much smaller surplus is better when bulking, and I had put on far too much fat on past bulks compared to this, but I was still under the impression that a slight surplus is better for growth than just maintenance.

Essentially, yes.

The approach I take is more like bulk and recomp. I never truly cut unless it's for a contest.

Push food up to where you're growing, but not gaining a ton of fat, and then scale it back a little bit when the response to the food is no longer as strong.

Ie when insulin resistance, digestion, ect come into play.

Then just scale it back slightly to give yourself a break, let bf come down a little bit.

Then back at it.


For me, this means staying between 12-14ish bf the entire time.


If you are getting fat on a bulk, then you are no longer growing efficiently.

 

[1lifter23]

No idea. Just looked and he may have covered it in 92. Honestly not sure but I know he has lol

I'll look through his stuff again, ty.

 

[1lifter23]

Essentially, yes.

The approach I take is more like bulk and recomp. I never truly cut unless it's for a contest.

Push food up to where you're growing, but not gaining a ton of fat, and then scale it back a little bit when the response to the food is no longer as strong.

Ie when insulin resistance, digestion, ect come into play.

Then just scale it back slightly to give yourself a break, let bf come down a little bit.

Then back at it.


For me, this means staying between 12-14ish bf the entire time.


If you are getting fat on a bulk, then you are no longer growing efficiently.

Interesting, this makes sense to me but I have always been told bulking/cutting is more efficient than this style. If I'm being honest with myself I likely got a bit too fat towards the end of this bulk, so maybe a minicut at least is needed, and then I can transition into more of a maintenance approach like you suggest. Thanks for the info brother.

 

[BigTomJ]

Interesting, this makes sense to me but I have always been told bulking/cutting is more efficient than this style. If I'm being honest with myself I likely got a bit too fat towards the end of this bulk, so maybe a minicut at least is needed, and then I can transition into more of a maintenance approach like you suggest. Thanks for the info brother.

This is what works for me.
Some people really like the bulk and cut cycle. But it is a dated practice.

Typically bulk/cut your not going to be growing much at all during the cut, and if you're getting fat on the bulk, then you're already way over the amount of food that your body can utilize.


If you keep it to less of an extreme on either side, enough food to maximize growth on a push, and still enough to grow at least some during maintenance phases you're growing year round, rather than only growing half the time, and fighting to keep what your grew the other half

 

[jjnnnt]

Essentially, yes.

The approach I take is more like bulk and recomp. I never truly cut unless it's for a contest.

Push food up to where you're growing, but not gaining a ton of fat, and then scale it back a little bit when the response to the food is no longer as strong.

Ie when insulin resistance, digestion, ect come into play.

Then just scale it back slightly to give yourself a break, let bf come down a little bit.

Then back at it.


For me, this means staying between 12-14ish bf the entire time.


If you are getting fat on a bulk, then you are no longer growing efficiently.

how many cals do you cut when you pull back?

 

[BigTomJ]

how many cals do you cut when you pull back?

Depends. It's going to be entirely by individual response.

Keep in mind, I generally only pull back when I feel like BF is creeping too high, fasted BG and insulin response starts to suffer, or digestion and appetite starts to suffer.

So I'll start by maybe cutting 50 carbs out each day or taking carbs out of one of my meals on low and rest days and see from there. Just adjust until everything starts clicking good again.


This usually ends up lining up with my blast/cruise cycles.
Push the food on the blast, then scale it back and get digestion and appetite back during cruise

 

[eery]

Essentially, yes.

The approach I take is more like bulk and recomp. I never truly cut unless it's for a contest.

Push food up to where you're growing, but not gaining a ton of fat, and then scale it back a little bit when the response to the food is no longer as strong.

Ie when insulin resistance, digestion, ect come into play.

Then just scale it back slightly to give yourself a break, let bf come down a little bit.

Then back at it.


For me, this means staying between 12-14ish bf the entire time.


If you are getting fat on a bulk, then you are no longer growing efficiently.

So in terms of rate of gain or calorie surplus, how does that look with the way you do it? lets say weekly or monthly gain or daily/weekly calorie surplus for yourself, and how big of a deficit or rate of loss/week during your cut/recomp phase. How much time do you usually see spending in each phase?

I think a lot of people have recognized how the general recommendations in the past of 500kcal surplus or 1lbs gain a week leaves 90% of people too fat and that we really dont need as much as some people can make you believe to gain muscle, without the additional useless fat gain you have to strip off later, leaving you with less time to grow efficiently.

 

[JC Grifter]

My advice would be to stay at maintenance or slightly below while keeping your activity level high. You will start dropping fat slowly and keep your muscle. Once you’re at a body fat level you’re happy with then do a lean bulk. Rinse and repeat. If you’re not competing or getting ready for a photo shoot, there’s no reason to rush things with an aggressive cut.

 

[BigTomJ]

So in terms of rate of gain or calorie surplus, how does that look with the way you do it? lets say weekly or monthly gain or daily/weekly calorie surplus for yourself, and how big of a deficit or rate of loss/week during your cut/recomp phase. How much time do you usually see spending in each phase?

Depends.
I like to see maybe half a pound a week on a good push, maybe a bit more at the beginning when the blast starts really coming online.
As for how much of a surplus it really varries from push to push depending on my health, digestion, drugs I'm using, starting body comp, ect.
If I was heavily generalize I'd say probably start with maybe an extra 200-300 cals from carbs at the start and adjust from there based on how the scale is moving, how performance in the gym is looking, and what the mirror says.

I think a lot of people have recognized how the general recommendations in the past of 500kcal surplus or 1lbs gain a week leaves 90% of people too fat and that we really dont need as much as some people can make you believe to gain muscle, without the additional useless fat gain you have to strip off later, leaving you with less time to grow efficiently.

My thought process exactly.
Some people grow like weeds and have no trouble getting a little sloppy. It's just not something that has ever worked for me and it's not an approach I like taking with my clients

 

[bigboy420]

I don't do traditional bulk and cut. Bulk and cut is largely counterproductive

This bro. How is cutting ever worth if the only goal is pure muscle.

How does the majority not see realise this. Cutting just doesnt make sense its only for muscles to be visible. Nothing else...