MALDI-TOF-MS/HPLC-UV-VIS rHGH results

[ProfessorX]

So....a member uses Norditropin with similar IGF1 everytime in relation to dose

I get similar results with GENLEI Jintropin everytime (IGF1)

Had low IGF1 results from a GodTropin batch (other members did aswell)

This would indicate a possible issue with the product

A vial from the kit used is being tested

 

[Buck1973]

I'm not sure I follow buddy

But I agree with Muscle:

"that is why the medical community uses the IGF=1 lab test to monitor dosage. That way they can adjust the dosage to get the intended result"

But again....it's a "reference" or "marker"

My IGF1 is always within a range on different doses of GENLEI Jintropin (China Pharma)

Another member uses Norditropin with similar response to dose

Several members (myself included) had low IGF1 response to a bad batch of GodTropin (sample being tested)

IGF1 mediates the therapeutic properties of GH

The spurious relationship between serum IGF1 levels and growth response precludes the use of IGF1 as a surrogate marker for efficacy.

I think I have you wrong also??
If you and another member are within range on various dosages (i read yr labs and yr range is 75-216). Wouldnt this tell ya that the HGH is junk or very underdosed???
you also say several members including yourself had a poor response to a bad batch?
I would xpect a poor response to a bad batch. You choose to lab test it??
If funds are unlimited I understand this.

Peace

 

[ProfessorX]

I think I have you wrong also??
If you and another member are within range on various dosages (i read yr labs and yr range is 75-216). Wouldnt this tell ya that the HGH is junk or very underdosed???
you also say several members including yourself had a poor response to a bad batch?
I would xpect a poor response to a bad batch. You choose to lab test it??
If funds are unlimited I understand this.

Peace

Sorry

(Within range)
5Ius - 480-500 (apprx)

And yes, we are testing several samples to compare to Blood Work
(Same kit)

Good learning experience

 

[muscle96ss]

Sorry

(Within range)
5Ius - 480-500 (apprx)

And yes, we are testing several samples to compare to Blood Work
(Same kit)

Good learning experience

Just to make sure I understand; are you saying that if I picked 100 random bodybuilders and gave them all 5iu Norditropin per day and check their IGF-1 levels a few weeks later; they are all going to be within the 480-500 mark?

 

[ProfessorX]

Just to make sure I understand; are you saying that if I picked 100 random bodybuilders and gave them all 5iu Norditropin per day and check their IGF-1 levels a few weeks later; they are all going to be within the 480-500 mark?[/QUOTE

No, of course not

So mixing three vials then doing a GH Serum

Are you thinking each vial is randomly dosed because the GH Serums are different

And not the test itself is causing different results

 

[muscle96ss]

Let me give you the thought process behind this. People are aware that you can find various biotech places in China where you can purchase kits with any color cap you want and various dosages(i.e. 4iu, 6iu ,8iu, and 10iu). So some people are fearful that the sources are ripping us off by mixing various dosed vials in their kits. In other words, one 100iu kit may contain 3 10iu vials, 5 8iu vials, and 2 6iu vials and not really be 100iu. This way the cost is cheaper to the source and they can sell their kits cheaper. So based on that, when you mix 3 vials together and do 3 separate tests, you have ensured that each test is being done with the exact same dosage.

Personally, I don't really think this is actually what the sources are doing in the majority of the cases. But nonetheless, doing this ensures that all tests are done with equivalent amount of GH, so its not harming anything if done in this manner.

 

[ProfessorX]

Let me give you the thought process behind this. People are aware that you can find various biotech places in China where you can purchase kits with any color cap you want and various dosages(i.e. 4iu, 6iu ,8iu, and 10iu). So some people are fearful that the sources are ripping us off by mixing various dosed vials in their kits. In other words, one 100iu kit may contain 3 10iu vials, 5 8iu vials, and 2 6iu vials and not really be 100iu. This way the cost is cheaper to the source and they can sell their kits cheaper. So based on that, when you mix 3 vials together and do 3 separate tests, you have ensured that each test is being done with the exact same dosage.

Personally, I don't really think this is actually what the sources are doing in the majority of the cases. But nonetheless, doing this ensures that all tests are done with equivalent amount of GH, so its not harming anything if done in this manner.

One of the products that tested well and is now having issues.....some vials are causing welts...some are not

This is in the same kit. I think some vials are vacuumed sealed some are not (same kit)

So yea, I can see what ya mean

 

[muscle96ss]

One of the products that tested well and is now having issues.....some vials are causing welts...some are not

This is in the same kit. I think some vials are vacuumed sealed some are not (same kit)

So yea, I can see what ya mean

The welts can also be from a faulty manufacturing process, a guy named lenor posted about this on OLM a while back. I would suspect that in this case. If it was an individual reaction it would occur all the time.

 

[Buck1973]

Mr. Professor,
The Mixed vial test was to show. we eliminate the the possibility of variance from vial to vial. whether on purpose or just a factory manufacturing process issue. there is always talk that there is inconsistancys from vial to vial for wat ever reason.
If I were to mix 3 vials together and do a serum test on 1/3 of that contents , in 3 consecutive days , and do everything the same as a test subject that is in my control ( same time of day ,same diet , same timing of the draw,ect.) i therory if these tests were accurate we should have 3 similar test results. This would leave only the test itself and the human left as suspect if results vary.
I tested the test itself and it is xtremely acurate at giving a consistent repeatable score on a givin day ( I could produce the results and process also).... this leave s only the Human as the remaining factor if these tests are not predictable or repeatable as we eliminated 2 possible factors. ( ofcourse no big surprise ). but prove were the variable lies.
So with the multiple mixed vial test we have a SMALL sampling of wat to xpect the margin of error of this test to be. the more tests this way the wider this will get .
Know this is 1 subjects findings but my belief is this would be repeated by anyone with similar results to some xtent..
I can give further specifics on any tests or processes done. Granted these are not scientifically controlled tests but not pure conjecture either....
This is the types of testing that is done @ PM with Serums and other testing and are not tests to promote a sponsors product..........

Peace

 

[Buck1973]

So when M96SS invites the critical viewers here to view the thread,He is not asking them to come and see endless Serum numbers that promote anyones HGh, he asks you to come view the science, the xperiments, the findings , in a real world testing scenarios.
There are many tests I just touched on a recent 1 above. There done on Serums And IGF-1 testing alike. The thread now contains over 4300 posts that shows the intrest and the huge discussions that take place. for those that ahve been there from the start will agree alot has been learned from our testing....
I can give more xamples.
If anyone thinks there is censorship on sponsors thats not the case . Sponsor will be asked to leave if there promoting there products or just bickering about there scores or with another sponsor. The thread is for the members to post tests and discuss from there the methods and anything related to HGH or its manufacturing process from start to finish which may include there tests. Many sponsors have help the understanding of this and those types of discussions are welcomed.
The next step is the labs as stated, You can believe the thread will grow faster with that addition. We have learned that mistakes can be made with this type of testing. We look to all others info to help prevent this..

Peace

 

[ProfessorX]

I see what you're saying now. I've done all the BBing Forum Testing Protocols myself.....but....at some point you have to realize that :

Bioequivalence is a term inpharmacokinetics used to assess the expected in vivobiological equivalence of two proprietary preparations of a drug. If two products are said to be bioequivalent it means that they would be expected to be, for all intents andpurposes, the same.

IGF1
IGFBP3
NEFA
(Blood Work)

These are used to determine Bioequivalence between INNOVATOR (Pharma) and BIOSIMILAR (Generic)

GH Serums were not used. GH Serum results cannot determine quality or potency of rhGh. THIS IS A COMMON MISCONCEPTION OFTEN MENTIONED ON BODYBUILDING FORUMS. GH Serum Levels will not tell you "how strong" the growth hormone is.

BIOSIMILARS/BIOIDENTICAL/Follow-On

The manufacture of biologics from unique cellular-expression systems requires extensive interdisciplinary effort and experi- ence in molecular and cell biology, biochemistry, and protein, biochemical, and industrial engineering. There are many steps in the manufacturing process that can influence the purity, potency, clinical efficacy, and safety of the finished product.9,20 Since a protein can be folded in several ways to impart unique physicochemical and immunological characteristics, differ- ences in the source and extraction purification processes can alter its 3-dimensional structure. These characteristics can be modified by post-translational changes such as glycosylation. Cells are sensitive to their culture environment and so are culti- vated via a complex process with strict control of pH, tempera- ture, and oxygen levels. Contaminants and impurities (eg, trace DNA, endotoxins, viral proteins, and unwanted host cell proteins) produced as a result of the manufacturing process are removed via several purification steps.9

Example of Protein Characterization/Sequencing Analysis I had done: (I had 3 Analysis done/comparing "Generic" to Pharma)



The Product tested very well. But again, I just don't see how using the $45 GH Serums for anything more than if there is a GH Protein present. I don't dismiss your efforts though. But...sometimes we can "over analyze" the blood serum numbers. I think if you expand into Real Lab Testing, it will help.

 

[muscle96ss]

I see what you're saying now. I've done all the BBing Forum Testing Protocols myself.....but....at some point you have to realize that :

Bioequivalence is a term inpharmacokinetics used to assess the expected in vivobiological equivalence of two proprietary preparations of a drug. If two products are said to be bioequivalent it means that they would be expected to be, for all intents andpurposes, the same.

IGF1
IGFBP3
NEFA
(Blood Work)

These are used to determine Bioequivalence between INNOVATOR (Pharma) and BIOSIMILAR (Generic)

GH Serums were not used. GH Serum results cannot determine quality or potency of rhGh. THIS IS A COMMON MISCONCEPTION OFTEN MENTIONED ON BODYBUILDING FORUMS. GH Serum Levels will not tell you "how strong" the growth hormone is.

BIOSIMILARS/BIOIDENTICAL/Follow-On

The manufacture of biologics from unique cellular-expression systems requires extensive interdisciplinary effort and experi- ence in molecular and cell biology, biochemistry, and protein, biochemical, and industrial engineering. There are many steps in the manufacturing process that can influence the purity, potency, clinical efficacy, and safety of the finished product.9,20 Since a protein can be folded in several ways to impart unique physicochemical and immunological characteristics, differ- ences in the source and extraction purification processes can alter its 3-dimensional structure. These characteristics can be modified by post-translational changes such as glycosylation. Cells are sensitive to their culture environment and so are culti- vated via a complex process with strict control of pH, tempera- ture, and oxygen levels. Contaminants and impurities (eg, trace DNA, endotoxins, viral proteins, and unwanted host cell proteins) produced as a result of the manufacturing process are removed via several purification steps.9

Example of Protein Characterization/Sequencing Analysis I had done: (I had 3 Analysis done/comparing "Generic" to Pharma)

View attachment 33158 View attachment 33159 View attachment 33160 View attachment 33161 View attachment 33162 View attachment 33163 View attachment 33164 View attachment 33165 View attachment 33166 View attachment 33167

The Product tested very well. But again, I just don't see how using the $45 GH Serums for anything more than if there is a GH Protein present. I don't dismiss your efforts though. But...sometimes we can "over analyze" the blood serum numbers. I think if you expand into Real Lab Testing, it will help.

I understand what you are saying, but the reason IGF-1 is used in the medical field is because it is stable over time while serum GH levels are not stable over time. So you can take a blood test at any time under any conditions and you should end up with the same number(in other words, if I take my IGF-1 at 7:00 A.M. or 12 midnight, it should be very close in value.).

But you must have GH in your blood(serum) before it can convert to IGF-1. I have mentioned this before and everyone keeps missing this step. A serum GH is nothing more than how much GH is in your blood. The more GH you have in your blood from an injection, the more that will be converted to IGF-1. In other words, if I inject 5iu, 10iu, and 15iu of GH and take serums under identical conditions following all 3, the greater the amount of the injection, the higher the serum score will be. Buck has already done this experiment and it showed exactly that. So, for people that keep talking about how great IGF-1 is and how meaningless the serum tests are, where do you think the GH comes from that converts to IGF-1. It comes from your serum.

So in summary, you inject GH, you absorb GH, you process GH, and you convert it to IGF-1. It doesn't matter where along the chain of events you make your measurement as long as you can standardize that measurement. In fact, the earlier down the line you can make it, the more accurate the actual measurement is going to be from a standpoint of measuring what was injected. The later you measure it, the more error you have from variance of how each individual processes it differently. However, in the medical field it is this measurement of individual variance that you want because you are after clinical effect. While from our standpoint we are simply trying to determine the amount of GH, so in reality we want to measure it as early on as possible. Unfortunately, as I mentioned above, there is no standardized manner of measurement with the serum GH. But this is where things get tricky. Each individual should be able to standardize it themselves by doing the exact same routine(taking the injection at the same time, blood draw at same time, identical lifestyle events, etc..). That is what we are attempting to replicate with the multiple vial, multiple tests that buck and I were describing earlier. Hope I didn't lose anybody with my explanation as it is easy to understand if you understand the various parts.

 

[ProfessorX]

And I commend y'all for your efforts and pages and pages of blood work

But....it's just a classic case of Science Vs BroScience

490€ SIMEC HPLC Test Vs a $45 LabCorp Blood Serum Test

And please don't be offended when I say this

What we've found with Real Lab Testing is the GH Serums Can "Reflect" Growth Hormone present....yes.....accurately.....absolutely not

It can be DECEIVING also:

VERY LOW GH SERUM - OVERDOSED VIAL
VERY HIGH GH SERUM - UNDERDOSED VIAL

What you are missing is that you are assuming the vial you are injecting is 10IUs
You cannot know this because you have not tested the vial
You are just assuming
TESTING THE VIAL Vs TESTING BLOOD SERUM

AnabolicLab.com (testing vs blood testing)

 

[muscle96ss]

And I commend y'all for your efforts and pages and pages of blood work

But....it's just a classic case of Science Vs BroScience

490€ SIMEC HPLC Test Vs a $45 LabCorp Blood Serum Test

And please don't be offended when I say this

What we've found with Real Lab Testing is the GH Serums Can "Reflect" Growth Hormone present....yes.....accurately.....absolutely not

It can be DECEIVING also:

VERY LOW GH SERUM - OVERDOSED VIAL
VERY HIGH GH SERUM - UNDERDOSED VIAL

TESTING THE VIAL Vs TESTING BLOOD SERUM

AnabolicLab.com (testing vs blood testing)

Are you saying that the same tester scored low on and overdosed vial and high on an underdosed vial under the same conditions? Or 2 different testers?

 

[romaleos]

I follow you muscle. But the argument that JIM and now ProfX make are that just because it shows up as GH on a serum test doesn't mean that it biologically active due to the many variables as you mention but mostly because of the complexity of manufacturing "real" GH.

Thus IGF should be the test along with lab testing in order to cover all bases and definitively say: yes this Chinese knock off works like the pharma equivalent.

ProfX even mentioned when he showed up earlier that the GH serum test can also detect GH that is not biologically active and even can create an auto immune response.

I am no expert but even I know that GH serums are only good for knowing if what you're injecting is GH-like but may or not be biologically active and may even have health consequences. To say GH serums are a better way to determine quality because it has not completed the biological process is counterintuitive.

I guess the debate will rage on until we can come up with a bullet proof protocol and accessible laboratory testing.

 

[ProfessorX]

Yes.....same tester for low Serum...Overdosed Vial (tester has scored low/high....not a low responder)

Multiple testers (they ars not low/high responders) on the other (I'd be happy to share new SIMEC results with you when they are complete)

That's what ive been tryn to say brutha

I'm assuming it's like comparing some AnabolicLab results to blood work

But, what WE are doing is testing (HPLC/Blood Work) the same kit (not testing "batches" or same "batch no")

This is why what Jim and Mands were starting here could have been very beneficial to everyone

ALSO....AND THIS IS IMPORTANT....WHAT I'VE FOUND IS THAT SOME MEMBERS DO NOT ALWAYS POST UP THE LOW SCORING GH SERUMS BECAUSE THEY HAVE RECEIVED FREE TESTING KITS. THIS ISN'T POINTED TO PM

This has given GH Serums more credibility

 

[muscle96ss]

I follow you muscle. But the argument that JIM and now ProfX make are that just because it shows up as GH on a serum test doesn't mean that it biologically active due to the many variables as you mention but mostly because of the complexity of manufacturing "real" GH.

Thus IGF should be the test along with lab testing in order to cover all bases and definitively say: yes this Chinese knock off works like the pharma equivalent.

ProfX even mentioned when he showed up earlier that the GH serum test can also detect GH that is not biologically active and even can create an auto immune response.

I am no expert but even I know that GH serums are only good for knowing if what you're injecting is GH-like but may or not be biologically active and may even have health consequences. To say GH serums are a better way to determine quality because it has not completed the biological process is counterintuitive.

I guess the debate will rage on until we can come up with a bullet proof protocol and accessible laboratory testing.

It has been brought to our attention that in theory the serum test could show GH, but that it is not biologically active and therefore will not result in any clinical effect or rise in IGF-1; as you have mentioned. However, with all the testing we have done, we have yet to identify a single GH that fits this scenario. Nor have I seen anyone on the internet identify an actual GH that fits this profile. I am not saying that its not possible, but it would be the exception rather than the norm. But, yes a simple follow-up IGF-1 test would rule out this scenario and we have done that many times with our testing.

 

[muscle96ss]

Yes.....same tester for low Serum...Overdosed Vial (tester has scored low/high....not a low responder)

Multiple testers (they ars not low/high responders) on the other (I'd be happy to share new SIMEC results with you when they are complete)

That's what ive been tryn to say brutha

I'm assuming it's like comparing some AnabolicLab results to blood work

But, what WE are doing is testing (HPLC/Blood Work) the same kit (not testing "batches" or same "batch no")

This is why what Jim and Mands were starting here could have been very beneficial to everyone

ALSO....AND THIS IS IMPORTANT....WHAT I'VE FOUND IS THAT SOME MEMBERS DO NOT ALWAYS POST UP THE LOW SCORING GH SERUMS BECAUSE THEY HAVE RECEIVED FREE TESTING KITS. THIS ISN'T POINTED TO PM

That is an odd scenario and my guess is that the tester may be related to buck.

 

[ProfessorX]

So Actual Clinical studies use:
(Pfizer, Sandoz, Lilly, etc)
Bioequivalence

IGF1
IGFBP3
NEFA

Not GH Serums

Example of inaccurate GH Serum

The spurious relationship between serum IGF1 levels and growth response precludes the use of IGF1 as a surrogate marker for efficacy.

 

[Buck1973]

Yes.....same tester for low Serum...Overdosed Vial (tester has scored low/high....not a low responder)

Multiple testers (they ars not low/high responders) on the other (I'd be happy to share new SIMEC results with you when they are complete)

That's what ive been tryn to say brutha

I'm assuming it's like comparing some AnabolicLab results to blood work

But, what WE are doing is testing (HPLC/Blood Work) the same kit (not testing "batches" or same "batch no")

This is why what Jim and Mands were starting here could have been very beneficial to everyone

ALSO....AND THIS IS IMPORTANT....WHAT I'VE FOUND IS THAT SOME MEMBERS DO NOT ALWAYS POST UP THE LOW SCORING GH SERUMS BECAUSE THEY HAVE RECEIVED FREE TESTING KITS. THIS ISN'T POINTED TO PM

This has given GH Serums more credibility

Mr. Professor X .
I have run across this same scenario.as far as high serums and LOw IGF-1 scores
I am not sayin this is the case that you state.
But I will state a similar xperience.
The question was asked on forum and it was believed by some that anti bodys form and Igf-1 levels decrease with time on HGH because of this.
M96SS and many others called Bullshit to this. I was on the side that this happens, as it happened to me b4.
I IGF-1 tested 30 days on hgh or so. results 340, tested 60 days on results 344 igf-1 tested 160 days on, igf-1 342. so i proved there point 160 days on HGH same does same brand IGF-1 still where i would xpect no decrease.
I started a AAS cycle a few days, later 3 weeks in I did a IGF-1 test scored 200 flat. WTF????this is same product from the same order same dose. I went back to the Serum and it tested well.I looked at my Liver enzymes and they were elevated and made the assumption that the two were related.
when I came off and Liver enzymes improved so did my IGF-1 scores, the serums all the time were approximately the same but didnt seem affected.
I repeated this test on 10 IU's p/d while on cycle and did a IGF-1 test the results were 318 but yet this product was the same that I scored good on Serum and IGF-1 while I was off cycle AND Liver enzymes were good. This I can demonstrate time and again. so when some one cries Low IGF-1 My xperence tells me to Look at this possible factor. I say again I dont know if this could fit the case you describe but i have seen and lived this.
High Serum - Low IGF-1 : on a known Good HGH ;on Gear
Being that I am considered by SOME to serum on the low end
I can show a wats considered Low serum and a high IGF-1 ; Off AAS.
So I can replicate both.
If you had a Pharma HGH that Lab tested Perfectly to your satisfaction I could give you a IGF-1 score that you would say was no bueno.
So give a point to the serums..
But I completely understand the points ya made on testing and trust me money of no object I think we would choose the same testing.

Peace