My hepatic panel on pharmacom Tbol

[penche]

Been using some pharm grade Test from the TRT clinic at 200mg a week. Decided to enjoy an oral to play around a little before my blast. 50~60mg of tbol pharmacom.

Was concerned when I saw another members values so I checked mine. Seems about the same. Ran the tbol for about 28 days. Damn values are are kinda high.

 

[penche]

So 600mg milk thistle and NAC at 1200mg per week seem like the protocol to bring these numbers down. Retest in 2 months?

Numbers got me feeling like sad panda thinking my shit can't hang anymore . Might have to give up on orals depending how fast I recover.

 

[Maktub]

Why does memebers link their photobucket to this site! Not safe I think

 

[BiggBoss]

So 600mg milk thistle and NAC at 1200mg per week seem like the protocol to bring these numbers down. Retest in 2 months?

Numbers got me feeling like sad panda thinking my shit can't hang anymore . Might have to give up on orals depending how fast I recover.

Milk thistle is shit and won't help. NAC is questionable. Your liver is hurting from the orals. It will recover when you stop but I wouldn't do another 2 months before stopping.

 

[bootdoc]

TUDCA

 

[manafest]

Goes to show you it's real and you prob could have done 30 instead of 60...But yea everyone thinks More is better...you see where that gets you...

 

[pct-shop]

ever try ursofalk for liver support bro?

 

[manafest]

Correct me if I'm wrong but while your doing ass and the damage is being done to the liver NO support product works...After you are done I think some help it repair itself quicker...

 

[penche]

Is the pic still there guys? If not, numbers are ALT was 295 and AST was 125.

@pct-shop no brother I've never tried it. I will look into it or hit you up on pm.

@manafest i could've done 30mg but I didn't see any sides or tightness roughly 3~4 days in. On day 5 I bumped to 70mg and same day very nice and tight feeling and great pumps in the gym. Blood pressure up anything over 50mg. Below 40mg was no problem. I got a script for blood pressure meds during that short run. Maybe I did rush in it, anyhow, my liver paid a small price. I will retest and post up numbers in 30 days.

Forgot to post and state my initial labs for liver were perfectly normal. ALT was around 32 and AST was around 38.

@bootdoc I've read up on TUDCA and will more likely add it to my liver recovery meds. Thanks bud.


Also...depending how fast I recover will determine if I give up on orals. Did a lot of dbol and Winstrol in my younger days. A lot of alcohol too. Not very much drinking nowadays. Stay healthy men

 

[Dr JIM]

Once again there is NO evidence liver agents, like milk thistle, being pawned off for profit by supplement manufactures are of any benefit. This also includes cholestatic drugs such as TUDCA, Ursofalk or glutathione agents such as NAC

The treatment for drug associated hepatic toxicity is, IRREFUTABLE, cease use of the offending agent and anyone who's LFT's are THREE TIMES the labs reference range should do exactly that!

 

[penche]

Thanks for chiming in @Dr JIM.

Once results came in I was suprised and ceased the pills. I'm curious at what point(LFT #) does the liver get scarred. I'm sure duration of time plays a factor along with other possibilities. Not that I would like to know first hand. However, I always wonder how these pro's and IFbb BB's stack ridiculous amounts of chemical concoctions throughout their career. I'm sure some paid the price. Excuse my ramble.

 

[Xodusforever]

Hmm, tudca has helped bring my liver values down real quick with epistane runs in the past, and prevented the yellow eyes when using while running epistane ( got yellow eyes in a month on epistane)

 

[crossfitisgay]

Holy shit!! My liver hurts for you!

 

[Dr JIM]

Hmm, tudca has helped bring my liver values down real quick with epistane runs in the past, and prevented the yellow eyes when using while running epistane ( got yellow eyes in a month on epistane)

Yea and anecdotal stories like yours are peppered throughout the web and on PED forums but NOT ONE study exists which supports this often touted "benefit" of "liver agents".

But I'm sure the manufacturers have no problem with your conclusions!

 

[Dr JIM]

Thanks for chiming in @Dr JIM.

Once results came in I was suprised and ceased the pills. I'm curious at what point(LFT #) does the liver get scarred. I'm sure duration of time plays a factor along with other possibilities. Not that I would like to know first hand. However, I always wonder how these pro's and IFbb BB's stack ridiculous amounts of chemical concoctions throughout their career. I'm sure some paid the price. Excuse my ramble.

LFTS are not used to determine if scarring has occurred,
Hepatic scarring is the final pathway that leads to irreversible hepatic injury which is generally termed cirrhosis!

The latter is GENERALLY the consequence of prolonged toxin exposure with the net effect being cell lysis (rupture).

This then results in the release of inflammatory mediators and scarring.

Pros have a competent HCP following their progress

 

[mindgame1516]

Once again there is NO evidence liver agents, like milk thistle, being pawned off for profit by supplement manufactures are of any benefit. This also includes cholestatic drugs such as TUDCA, Ursofalk or glutathione agents such as NAC

The treatment for drug associated hepatic toxicity is, IRREFUTABLE, cease use of the offending agent and anyone who's LFT's are THREE TIMES the labs reference range should do exactly that!

haven their been studies done though that do prove that liv 52, milk thistle. had a signifacnt factor in lowering liver enzymes in the liver and recovering quicker??

 

[Dr JIM]

Absolutely NOT! Especially HUMAN trials. I've seen a perhaps a couple conducted in RATS who were given "toxic mushrooms" and although their liver enzymes "improved" they all met the same fate w or wo these supps, DEATH!

And that's no BS!

Serioiusly if these supps were effective in delaying the onset of hepatic injury enabling recovery WHY aren't users asking that million dollar question!

Hey Mr supplement salesman if these compounds were effective why are they NOT a part of ANY HEPATIC INJURY/RECOVERY MEDICAL PROTOCOL ????

 

[mindgame1516]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16194047

its not steroids but this still does show that liver support will signifactantly reduce liver enzymes.i can see alot of cheap ppl read this post and say oh well no point in liver support. or other ppl sharing in other threads that liver support doesent do anything and before we know it no one cares to buy stuff that will help their liver . everyone reacts differently if you have hepatits abc. In this study ppl that dident benefit from hepatitis medicatation that is used around the world and has been proven to helped hundred of thousands, then they are some ppl that got no benifit in it but milk thistle treatment and other remdys did work.
That is the same with liv 52 and others everyones going react different liver support odds are higher in improving your liver function while on cycle and after cycle then non.
https://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/herb/milk-thistle
what is basically what this study shows
and more http://www.liversupport.com/milkthistle.htm#benefits
I much rather waste the extra money and see how it helps which i have normally elevated enzymes due to certain things and they do in fact decrease levels very much especially over 3-6 months

 

[Dr JIM]

Unfortunately many people believe a reduction in hepatic enzymes in patients with end stage liver disease can be legitimately compared to those with NORMAL LIVERS whom are using supps to PREVENT hepatic injury.

Once again this form of apples to oranges comparisons does NOT apply for several reasons
1) Changes in enzymes does not necessarily mean a reducton in moratlity or morbidity and studies of CIRRHOTIC patients prove this.
2) Prophylaxis is NOT synonymous with therapy of ESTABLISHED DISEASE
3) None of these patients had normal hepatic physiology from the outset
4) The etiology of the subjects hepatic injury was NOT even considered as an important outcome factor
5) The use of supps did NOT alter the patients long term outcome
6) BASED upon how exceedingly rare significant AAS associated hepatic injury is, roughly 100,000 patients would require "supplementation" to be of any benefit as a prophylactic agent.
7) Finally in some 20 years of practice treating multiple AAS users, I can not think of ONE PATIENT who benefited from these hepatic compounds.


SO YEA THEY ARE A BIG WASTE OF MONEY, IMO, and to date no evidence has surfaced which discounts that opinion.

For those who believe "they may save their liver", I'll reiterate my earlier comment, there is a good reason these substances are NOT a part of ANY MEDICAL HEPATIC DISEASE PROTOCOL!

 

[Dr JIM]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16194047

1) show that liver support will signifactantly reduce liver enzymes.

2) i can see alot of cheap ppl read this post and say oh well no point in liver support.

3) or other ppl sharing in other threads that liver support doesent do anything and before we know it no one cares to buy stuff that will help their liver .

4) everyone reacts differently if you have hepatits abc.

5) In this study ppl that dident benefit from hepatitis medicatation that is used around the world and has been proven to helped hundred of thousands,

6) then they are some ppl that got no benifit in it but milk thistle treatment and other remdys did work.
That is the same with liv 52 and others everyones going react different liver support odds are higher in improving your liver function while on cycle and after cycle then non.
https://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/herb/milk-thistle
what is basically what this study shows
and more http://www.liversupport.com/milkthistle.htm#benefits
I much rather waste the extra money and see how it helps which i have normally elevated enzymes due to certain things and they do in fact decrease levels very much especially over 3-6 months

1) NOT true this study did NOT control for the many factors which are know to alter L enzymes
2) That's what I would certainly recommend until the MANUFACTURERS produce evidence these compounds are worth their cosT!
3) Great bc the ONLY thing that has been proven to aid patients with toxin (drug) associated hepatic injury is to discontinue the offending agent
4) No actually the physiologic "reaction" to any form of hepatitis is VERY SIMILAR, whether someone acquires hepatitis is primarily based upon host immunity and the inoculum size
5) "HUNDRED OF THOUSAND" that is PATENTLY ABSURD!
6) Post the evidence supporting this comment
7) More nonsense that is void of evidence

8) WHAT SUPPLEMENT COMPANY ARE U SHILLING FOR, LOL!