My introduction.....

[idmd]

How is it going with the lower dose? Give it a chance. E2 will come down and a small reduction in tT shouldnt make that much of a difference in sexual ability - if it does, then you reduced it too much.

You can also go to eod injections at a dose that's equivalent to your 2x/week dose and get a lower E2.

Yeah not sure LW....I reduced my test dose from 150mg/week with aromasin 12.5mg E3D (tT = 800; fT = 25; E2 = 30) to 100mg/week with no AI. I have done 100mg/week in the past and with a half dose (12.5mg) aromasin E3D had a tT = 650; fT = 18; E2 = 20). Now the old 100mg/week dose my SHBG was significant higher and it came down to below range at 150mg/week. My guess is 100mg/wk with no AI my E2 is in the 40's. I feel best when E2 is 10-20.

No night time or morning wood now. I feel great mentally and physically other than my peepee.

Could always pop some AI and see if my peepee works again. I suppose that would answer my question.

 

[idmd]

Ha! Pee pee is completely dead this morning. Wife rolled over to give me head and the best he ever got was about 25%. No feeling at all - feels numb?

I didn't experience this PRE-TRT with a tT of 150.

Gonna take 0.5mg Adex.

 

[idmd]

Took a little while but it's starting to come back after some Adex about 10 hours ago....some spontaneous wood ATM.

 

[BBC3]

Welcome to the "High-E CLub"..!! Been there. I have never been able to put my finger on it, but it seems like playing with some bulk Adex, it was not a great solution as immediate. I has really led me to wonder the further relationship with estrogen, prolactin, and then tying back to Dopamine. My use on smokeless tobacco (nicotine) and amphetamines (dop & NE action) further compound the issue. But considering I am pretty much "metabolicly locked" with regard to hormones after loading up on injectible, I wonder do I unknowningly mitigate and further modulate with the Adderall and Smokeless.. It never seems to last too long. Longest bout I thing was a week, and recently...

Ha! Pee pee is completely dead this morning. Wife rolled over to give me head and the best he ever got was about 25%. No feeling at all - feels numb?

I didn't experience this PRE-TRT with a tT of 150.

Gonna take 0.5mg Adex.

 

[idmd]

I think it's clear that I'm really sensitive to E2. Interestingly enough it wasn't just the SD that was the problem this time but I could also feel psychological differences - I remember feeling that way in my early 20's when I started gaining significant weight....and my E2 likely started to climb then and my test go down. Interestingly it's NOT how I felt in my early 30's - I assume that's because my test and E2 were both low by that point.

I basically feel normal again now with solid erections (maybe not quite 100% but getting there).

 

[idmd]

Hey fellas....been a while. Wanted to run some numbers by you. I've basically been cruising along on TRT for the past 2 years...happily. I wanted to see if I could do a restart. I've been off test for almost 2 months and I've been taking 50mg clomid and 20mg tamoxifen daily for three weeks now. Feel fine and testes feel like they filled out.

Labs:
Total Test: 423 (348-1197)
LH: 7.5 (1.7-8.6)
E2: 24 (7.6-42.6)

I know 2 years straight TRT is a decent stretch with out stimulating the boys. I was hoping for a higher tT. Wondering what everyone thinks. My guess is off meds my tT will drop significantly. Who votes keep going with clomid and tamoxifen? I have no sides at these doses so who votes trying to cruise for a while on clomid? Who votes tapering doses and just seeing where I'm at on my own?

Any help appreciated.

FWIW....I've moved away from my normal doc and I'm flying solo here.

 

[Sworder]

Your tT looks low compared to LH. Maybe you stopped the hcg too early?You should use hCG again to help stimulate the testes. Also get labs while on the hCG so you see what your balls are capable of!

 

[idmd]

I didn't have access to hCG. I know my LH isn't off the charts but I'm hoping some more time on clomid/tamoxifen will make up for it.

Is anyone encouraged by these numbers?

I know some restarts take longer and I'm willing to do that if necessary.

 

[Dr JIM]

Hey IDSTER how U doing fella?

So to ensure I understand you correctly you have been OFF TRT (dose) for 2 months and have been taking two SERMS Clomid and Novaladex as PCT during that interval?

Its important to be honest here but were you ALSO cycling other AAS during this two year TRT interval? If so was Deca one of the AAS you cheated with haha?

Next your asking if you should start another cycle, cruise (with what), or reinstitute TRT OR cease ALL SERM therapy to determine if your HTPA is recovered and to what extent.

I really don't know because your not being clear about what your trying to accomplish BUT one thing I promise if you restart ANY AAS HTPA restoration will only be delayed.

Finally I'm really not to impressed with your LH level and have generally found ANECDOTALLY, PCT levels of Gonadotropins at the upper limits of normal are a sign SERM therapy should be continued.

Now there are obviously are exceptions such as AGE but if I recall correctly you just passed ripe age of 40 and sorry fell the old HTPA just ain't what se use to be . The other exception being if the post SERM LH falls BELOW YOUR baseline level.

 

[idmd]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your response. I'm 36 yo and have been strictly doing TRT the past 2 years with a dose of 50mg twice weekly and that corresponded to a tT of around 800. No hCG during that time.

Yes, I stopped TRT 2 months ago and then 3 weeks ago started 50mg clomid and 20mg Tamoxifen daily.

Would you expect my LH level to be significant above range with those doses? Like I said no sides and I'm happy to continue the meds longer. Just looking for some guidance.

Thanks!

 

[Dr JIM]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your response. I'm 36 yo and have been strictly doing TRT the past 2 years with a dose of 50mg twice weekly and that corresponded to a tT of around 800. No hCG during that time.

Yes, I stopped TRT 2 months ago and then 3 weeks ago started 50mg clomid and 20mg Tamoxifen daily.

Would you expect my LH level to be significant above range with those doses? Like I said no sides and I'm happy to continue the meds longer. Just looking for some guidance.

Thanks!

If the as TT ester was either Cypo or Enanthate what I posted earlier certainly applies IME, bc you NEED AT LEAST 5-6 weeks for those AAS to clear mate!

 

[idmd]

BTW...I forgot "cruising" has a totally different meaning in AAS...lol. I just meant sticking to a standard dose of TRT. I forgot some of the vernacular in my absence. Thanks Jim, think I keep going with the clomid/tamoxifen for a bit longer and retest. No sides and I feel good so there's no reason I feel compelled to stop.

 

[Dr JIM]

That sounds GTG fella. You can cease the SERMS and retest BUT understand bc their half life is several days to weeks, an accurate LH level (absent the influence of SERMS) will not be obtainable for at least 3 weeks.

Do you have a baseline LH from your more youthful days haha, damn am I ever envious. 36 shit I only WISH!

 

[idmd]

I do not have a baseline LH as I was originally started on TRT by someone who had no idea. By the time I found someone knowledgeable my LH was already suppressed.

I'm thinking continue the clomid/tamoxifen another 4 weeks (it's been 4 weeks now), retest, stop the meds and retest 4 weeks after that?

How important is it to taper clomid/tamoxifen?

 

[Dr JIM]

Taper SERMS why, damn "bro science", that question is a sign you have been absent far to long IDSTER

Bc drugs that have half lives of at least a couple days in effect "auto-taper" upon discontinuation. Meaning the magnitude of the decline is proportional to their half life. (Moreover the withdrawal of very few drugs result in what is referred to medically as a "rebound effect".)

I suggest the following, obtain another LH and TT level in 4 weeks bc in doing so one can evaluate not only how much gonadotropin is being secreted in response to SERM therapy, but also to what extent that change has influenced the testicular secretion of testosterone. This approach also greatly diminishes the waiting interval for SERM clearance and hopefully negates the possibility of having to reinstitute PCT.

So ideally we are looking for a rising TT in spite of an LH value that is constant or better yet declining.

The latter being an indication both the HTPA and the Testicles are recovering.
Got it mate.

 

[idmd]

Got it, Jim! Much appreciated and I thank you for your time and expertise!

 

[LW64]

At age 36?

You DEFINITELY want to try a re-start!

Welcome back, idmd.

 

[Dr JIM]

Yo try not to be such a stranger mate. Do stay in touch and update us on your progress.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I do not know if you said this already, but what is your weight? IIRC, that was one of the original concerns.

 

[foreveryoung]

Your tT looks low compared to LH. Maybe you stopped the hcg too early?You should use hCG again to help stimulate the testes. Also get labs while on the hCG so you see what your balls are capable of!

I still disagree completely with this often repeated theory... The concept that even though he is already producing a high LH signal that somehow blasting the testicles with an even higher unnatural signal from Hcg will supposedly result in the testicles being more sensitive to an even lower LH signal later defies logic to me... And that doesn't even bring into the discussion the extra suppression to the hpta that the Hcg environment brings with it....