Neurocognitive Effects of Supraphysiological rhGH + Filtration

[Ateam2023]

Jfc ,

 

[Wrangel7]

My reply was a good-faith attempt to reassure you - the amyloid-seeding thing is a non-issue, and there are much simpler, reversible explanations for what you’re feeling.

I apologise if my laziness (using Grok and not bothering to refine the output) or calling you paranoid came off as dismissive of your genuine concerns.

Hope the MRI comes back clean and you feel sharp again soon.

Thank you. I noticed the edits you made to your comments and I appreciate the new spirit of the messages.

 

[Wrangel7]

Anti cardiolipin antibodies elevated.

@VikingMD thoughts?

Furthermore, thoughts on sbt-272/spn10?

 

[just some dude]

since pinning lots of unfiltered peps and hgh i have been getting cortisol spikes and immune responses. time to start filtering

 

[VikingMD]

Anti cardiolipin antibodies elevated.

@VikingMD thoughts?

Furthermore, thoughts on sbt-272/spn10?

View attachment 367304

Pretty non-specific but there is some literature suggesting it can be associated with brain injury.

 

[Wrangel7]

Pretty non-specific but there is some literature suggesting it can be associated with brain injury.

New results. Still awaiting access to the imaging results.

There is now more than one "independent" antiphospholipid marker in this case.

 

[Billbo98]

Actually comical. According to your output: I (ghoul) criticise (ghoul) and disagree with (ghoul) and use (ghoul)'s comment to contrast the other (also ghoul)'s comments.

I (ghoul) call out (ghoul) for cropping out c-hGH from the article as I (ghoul) admit.

Ghoul is also responding to and arguing with ghoul in the other thread. Awesome.

@Ghoul apparently, we are all you.

In fact, Grok (in your instance) thinks I (not to make any excessive epistemic claims here, though, about its knowledge of me) am this ghoul-amalgam so it technically did not call me paranoid in the first place but rather it called this ontologically distinct thing which does not actually exist paranoid.

However, if we are misattributing mental states to others, perhaps calling you delirious wouldn't be as big of a leap!

Bro have you actually sent a vial in your stock off for endotoxins? I’ve sent several from different batches and all have come back welllll within limits for Pharma drugs. Most recent ones were very low. You’re worrying for nothing man.

 

[Wrangel7]

Bro have you actually sent a vial in your stock off for endotoxins? I’ve sent several from different batches and all have come back welllll within limits for Pharma drugs. Most recent ones were very low. You’re worrying for nothing man.

Am I? Quite a few people may have confused my address of @Ghoul's points with my own points.

Now there is a question of whether these hGH fibrils from the vial survive and reach the brain in a meaningful manner for this context after say SC or IM injection.

So, regarding rhGH fibrils specifically, I think we are lacking evidence that the injection of this non-pharmaceutical product leads to amyloid-mediated brain diseases, especially not as quickly as in this case here.

 

[Billbo98]

Am I? Quite a few people may have confused my address of @Ghoul's points with my own points.

My bad G

 

[Ghoul]

Am I? Quite a few people may have confused my address of @Ghoul's points with my own points.

In pharma, a contaminant isn’t considered “ok” until it’s proven dangerous. Every contaminant a manufacturing process can create has to be identified, documented, and its risk evaluated to get FDA approval (simulators like Epivax are used for this).

This expensive, time consuming process isn’t used because they’re looking for busywork. it’s because with proteins, unlike small molecule conventional drugs, it’s understood there’s a universe of “low probability catastrophes” possible from impurities. How many random novel impurities are created by UGLs making rHGH?

Any change to manufacturing, packaging or handling that could create new types of contaminants has to go through this process again and get FDA approval.

While iatrogenic Alzheimer’s has only been proven with old, human-derived GH, there’s a unique risk with amyloid-like fibrils in rHGH. These needle-shaped aggregates aren't just 'dead' medicine, they’re structural templates. We don’t even have to guess if we’re being exposed to them, we are.

While not exactly like prions, even if they don’t (and we don’t know this) act on neurons, there’s no question from a mechanistic standpoint they can act as protein ‘seeds’, causing a chain reaction of misfolding. This 'cross-seeding' is the same process that drives many diseases, making any fibril shaped aggregate a potential long term threat.

It’s recognized as a significant enough threat to be standard practice for pharma to use a unique testing process to ensure the complete absence of this type of aggregate from pharma protein / peptide drugs.

Meanwhile, we have to weigh whether the vial full of visible fibrils qualifies for “just pin it bro”, and hope that one in a million, or billion, chain reaction of doom molecule isn’t in there.

 

[Billbo98]

In pharma, a contaminant isn’t considered “ok” until it’s proven dangerous. Every contaminant a manufacturing process can create has to be identified, documented, and its risk evaluated to get FDA approval (simulators like Epivax are used for this).

This expensive, time consuming process isn’t used because they’re looking for busywork. it’s because with proteins, unlike small molecule conventional drugs, it’s understood there’s a universe of “low probability catastrophes” possible from impurities. How many random novel impurities are created by UGLs making rHGH?

Any change to manufacturing, packaging or handling that could create new types of contaminants has to go through this process again and get FDA approval.

While iatrogenic Alzheimer’s has only been proven with old, human-derived GH, there’s a unique risk with amyloid-like fibrils in rHGH. These needle-shaped aggregates aren't just 'dead' medicine, they’re structural templates. We don’t even have to guess if we’re being exposed to them, we are.

While not exactly like prions, even if they don’t (and we don’t know this) act on neurons, there’s no question from a mechanistic standpoint they can act as protein ‘seeds’, causing a chain reaction of misfolding. This 'cross-seeding' is the same process that drives many diseases, making any fibril shaped aggregate a potential long term threat.

It’s recognized as a significant enough threat to be standard practice for pharma to use a unique testing process to ensure the complete absence of this type of aggregate from pharma protein / peptide drugs.

Meanwhile, we have to weigh whether the vial full of visible fibrils qualifies for “just pin it bro”, and hope that one in a million, or billion, chain reaction of doom molecule isn’t in there.

View attachment 370741

Who be having visible fibrils in their GH? lol that’s stepped on stuff

 

[Kralteramon]

Adverse Neurocognitive Effects of Supraphysiological GH from Non-Pharmaceutical RhGH + Filtration Discussion​

To avoid polluting the original thread, I am opening this one for discussion of the issue above (both in this N=1 case and as a broader topic). I aim to update this thread when I am sharper and have more data with newer replies.





Episodes of very dense brain fog + underlying brain fog virtually 24 hours a day.
Word retrieval issues.

Headaches for as much as 50% of the day for the past few weeks and maybe for 20% of the day for more than a month.
Memory gaps from even as recently as few minutes ago (short term and long term).

Pressure headache and disorientation, some confusion, some minor motor coordination issues from the start of this week, which is when I would begin to distinguish this as a more acute episode of impairment. Much greater intensity of headache and much greater prevalence of aphasia (specifically in word production/selection, rather than hearing).

Possibly mediated via rhGH IH. Many other possible explanations. Getting MRI+MRV tomorrow.



~8-9 IU resting days.
~14 IU or below training days (~14 iu is highest it has been this period; usually closer to resting day range).

I don't think my trt-level AAS exposure is causing this (~140mg/wk test p).

If curious about the rhGH dose and low AAS dose, I am not a bodybuilder, but I am focusing on arm-wrestling where collagen synthesis and tendon stiffness, strength play a massive role (many aspects of the sport are quite isometric).

I ran much, much higher doses of rhGH last year without this sort of episode.

Filtration:​

Amyloid formation of growth hormone in presence of zinc: Relevance to its storage in secretory granules​

Amyloid formation of growth hormone in presence of zinc: Relevance to its storage in secretory granules - Scientific Reports

Amyloids are cross-β-sheet fibrillar aggregates, associated with various human diseases and native functions such as protein/peptide hormone storage inside secretory granules of neuroendocrine cells. In the current study, using amyloid detecting agents, we show that growth hormone (GH) could be...

doi.org

@Ghoul also brought up an article title where he cropped out the fact that it was about c‑hGH (cadaver-derived) (not rhGH). RhGH is a very different product.

Amyloid-β ‘seeds’ in old vials of growth hormone

A therapy used until 1985 causes amyloid-β accumulation in mice brains.

doi.org

The point may be to illustrate how hGH products can carry exogenous amyloid seeds, when injected driving amyloid deposition. Despite the c-hGH example, @Ghoul may be considering that rhGH itself may significantly form amyloid-like fibrils in UGL contexts (as shown by the Zinc paper) and these fibrils could behave as seed-competent material.




Now there is a question of whether these hGH fibrils from the vial survive and reach the brain in a meaningful manner for this context after say SC or IM injection.


There is some evidence supporting the idea that BBB is impaired in neuroPASC, and with the prevalence of that, I think that's something which should be considered, even if we are all being quite conjectural at this point.

Blood–brain barrier disruption and sustained systemic inflammation in individuals with long COVID-associated cognitive impairment - Nature Neuroscience

Long COVID is a major public health issue since 2020 and exhibits frequent neurological symptoms. Greene et al. propose that brain fog results from leaky brain blood vessels and a hyperactive immune system, shedding light on this phenomenon.

doi.org

https://doi.org/10.3390/biology12081106

So, regarding rhGH fibrils specifically, I think we are lacking evidence that the injection of this non-pharmaceutical product leads to amyloid-mediated brain diseases, especially not as quickly as in this case here. However, we do have precedent of peripheral or iatrogenic misfolded proteins seeding various brain pathologies; concern + filtration may be appropriate.

Transmission of amyloid-β protein pathology from cadaveric pituitary growth hormone - Nature

Archived vials of cadaveric human growth hormone contain substantial levels of amyloid-β (Aβ) peptides and can seed Aβ plaques in susceptible mice, suggesting that this material could have transmitted Aβ pathology to humans.

doi.org

Filters for anyone reading, since we are on the topic of filtration, I believe these may align with @Ghoul's criteria/recommendations:

Peptides & Proteins:

Sterile 0.2 μm PES Syringe Filters

Hydrophilic PES syringe filters with single or double-layer membrane. Pore sizes of 0.2μm. Diameter of 13mm/25mm/33mm with Luer lock. Sterile individually packed.

shop.cobetter.com

AAS oils (technically marked as a gas filter @Ghoul):

Syringe Vent Filters Hydrophobic PTFE Autoclavable

Autoclavable hydrophobic PTFE syringe filters. Pore size: 0.2 μm. Diameter of 13mm/25mm/33mm with Luer lock. For venting and air filtration.

shop.cobetter.com

Sterile depyrogenated vials:

5cc vials:

Ultra Spec Sterile 5ml (20mm neck) Clear Sealed Glass Vial, Qty 1

5ml clear sealed sterile glass vials (Silver seal, single). Shop at Med Lab SUpply for high quality medical and lab glass!

www.medical-and-lab-supplies.com

10cc vials:

Ultra Spec 10ML Clear Sealed Sterile Glass Vials, Qty 1

Ultra Spec Sterile Clear Sealed Glass Vials - 10ML (20mm Neck) made of SCHOTT FIOLAX® glass tubing. In order to receive vials in sealed shrink wrap boxes, please order in multiples of 25.

www.medical-and-lab-supplies.com

I wouldn’t count on HGH causing these issues. We have a huge group of people on here sharing experiences and side effects and this isn’t one of them. Have you considered the fact that you might actually have a serious issue in your brain going on right now that is unrelated to HGH? Or maybe even a (benign) tumor that is growing due to your HGH use? Sounds a lot more plausible to me. I understand the temptation to look fo the cause to your issues in your drug use but chances are you’re in the wrong direction. Hope you find out what is wrong with you soon.

 

[Avies48]

I wouldn’t count on HGH causing these issues. We have a huge group of people on here sharing experiences and side effects and this isn’t one of them. Have you considered the fact that you might actually have a serious issue in your brain going on right now that is unrelated to HGH? Or maybe even a (benign) tumor that is growing due to your HGH use? Sounds a lot more plausible to me. I understand the temptation to look fo the cause to your issues in your drug use but chances are you’re in the wrong direction. Hope you find out what is wrong with you soon.

Yup id be getting a scan done to look for any tumors… doesnt sound right at all…

 

[Wrangel7]

Yup id be getting a scan done to look for any tumors… doesnt sound right at all…

According to interpretation of the latest MRI + MRV:

No "evidence" of any focal signal change or brain parenchyma abnormality. Major venous sinuses are patent without stenosis (signal dropout is noted in the right transverse sigmoid junction). Normal SWI sequence. No abnormal vessels seen. Dedicated imaging of the pituitary. Informed (sic), but the appearances are grossly normal. No radiological evidence of intracranial hypertension or hypotension.

Have you considered the fact that you might actually have a serious issue in your brain going on right now that is unrelated to HGH?

Yes.
A reason outside of rhGH use and prior AAS use would be neurological PASC.

Or maybe even a (benign) tumor that is growing due to your HGH use?

Macroscopic unlikely.

Hope you find out what is wrong with you soon.

Thank you.

@VikingMD