MESO-Rx Exclusive Ozempic and Mounjaro for bodybuilders - more than just weight loss drugs

[MESO-Rx Administrator]

@Type-IIx explains the benefits of GLP-1 and GIP agonists like Semaglutide and Tirzepatide, as true insulin sensitizing agents. how they are different from other weight loss drugs, and the benefits as partitioning agents for bodybuilders.

I'm sure you've read a lot about Ozempic, Wegovy, and Mounjaro for overweight sedentary people in the mainstream media but if you want to read about the use of these drug from a bodybuilding perspective, read on:

Semaglutide and Tirzepatide are More Than Just Weight Loss Drugs

Learn how GLP-1 and GIP agonists like Semaglutide and Tirzepatide enhance insulin sensitivity, preserve muscle mass and reduce fat stores.

thinksteroids.com

 

[29trt]

I can't tell if y'all kidding, but there are several positive studies on cinnamon and insulin sensitivity (1, 2, 3).

My only tip is that if any of those studies entice you to try cinnamon, make sure it is the right type of cinnamon and dose.

@29trt is your source for cinnamon toxicity that TikTokker? jk (info on coumarin and cassia here). I'm having trouble making the calculations, but it seems like a shit-ton of cinnamon is necessary to reach those levels.

@Jin23 @Type-IIx

no tiktok here.... please.... the fact that coumarin is liver toxict is true and the better kind of cinamon to use is ceylon.

but as you say dosage is a factor and in the diabetic trials the dosages ranged from 1-6g so a pretty wide spectrum but still not enough to cause any issues to a healthy individuals liver... now one who is loading on AAS IDK....

However in the studies the effect on BG, insulin, and insulin resistance was mild and the degree of certainty was moderate to low...
In real life the effect does not pan out for me or others so yeah... I still take it mostly cause I like the taste in my oats

 

[Jin23]

However in the studies the effect on BG, insulin, and insulin resistance was mild and the degree of certainty was moderate to low...
In real life the effect does not pan out for me or others so yeah...

Those words sound very conclusive and absolute. It's a particularly well studied compound. But as with all other natural derived supplements, you must be careful in interpreting results due to the chemical variance of various extract methods containing different phytochemicals and varying degrees of bioavailability ... Not to mention that also one whole bark powder, not extract, might contain a vastly different chemical makeup then another too.

cinnamon really? I thought there were studies were the effect on BG was nonexistant.. and if I remember right there was some toxicity or something related to high dosages
don't get me wrong I'm all for alternatives to metformin and glp1 for BG and I've been using cinnamon for years but small dosages...

Yes, really. It's quite effective. It has a lot of similarities with glp1 agonists, as it's a DPP-4 inhibitor. However, since it actually increases insulin sensitivity, what you see in studies is actually a reduction in postprandial insulin secretion coupled with improved BG management. What a true insulin sensitizing agent should do. Some trials show it doesn't effect T2D's post prandial glucose, at least not at the beginning of the trial. Not quite sure why that is, but it looks like it drops insulin too much and actually increases glucagon. This is one such example:

I had a month or two trial with it and I had zero appetite, couldn't eat at all. Certainly ymmv, but me, I'm really sensitive to incretins appetite reduction effects. Me personally, it also lowered my BG too aggressively.

Here is an excerp of a recent summary:

Rafehi et al. [45] suggested several potential mechanisms for low GI impact by Cinnamon including activation of phosphorylation of insulin receptors β-subunits; increased expression of GLUT 4, increase in (Glucose transporter) GLUT 1 mediated glucose uptake, increase in GLP-1, increase in PPAR, inhibition of intestinal α-glucosidase and pancreatic α-amylase, inhibition of gluconeogenesis, and delay of gastric emptying [45].

Extracts of cinnamon can activate glucogen synthase, activate insulin receptor kinase increase glucose uptake, inhibit glucogen synthase kinase-3 and inhibit dephosphorylation of the insulin receptor, leading to maximal phosphorylation of the insulin receptor. Insulin sensitivity will be increased by cinnamon as a result of above-mentioned mechanism [46]. Also by inhibiting insulin receptor phosphatase, it leads to increase insulin sensitivity [47].Cinnamaldehyde derived from C. zeylanicum also can reduce plasma glucose concentration via insulin secretion from pancreatic β-cells [25] and reduce HbA1c levels more effectively in streptozotocin-induced diabetic rats [17]. Cinnamaldehyde has the ability to reduce plasma glucose levels more effectively than metformin. Based on an in vivo study, Babu et al. [25] claimed that cinnamaldehyde can restore the altered plasma enzyme, such as aspartate aminotransferase, alanine aminotransferase, lactate dehydrogenase, alkaline phosphatase, and acid phosphatase levels closer to the normal level [25]. Hlebowicz et al. [48] claimed that intake of cinnamon could increase postprandial glucagon-like peptide-1 concentrations decrease insulin concentrations, and stimulate the insulin receptor [48]. Cinnamon is concentrated with highly bioactive compounds. Bioactive compounds available in cinnamon oil enhance the protein expression that plays a major role during insulin signaling, glucose transporting, and the regulation of dyslipidemia [49].

Cinnamon: Potential Role in the Prevention of Insulin Resistance,Metabolic Syndrome, and Type 2 Diabetes

 

[29trt]

Those words sound very conclusive and absolute. It's a particularly well studied compound. But as with all other natural derived supplements, you must be careful in interpreting results due to the chemical variance of various extract methods containing different phytochemicals and varying degrees of bioavailability ... Not to mention that also one whole bark powder, not extract, might contain a vastly different chemical makeup then another too.



Yes, really. It's quite effective. It has a lot of similarities with glp1 agonists, as it's a DPP-4 inhibitor. However, since it actually increases insulin sensitivity, what you see in studies is actually a reduction in postprandial insulin secretion coupled with improved BG management. What a true insulin sensitizing agent should do. Some trials show it doesn't effect T2D's post prandial glucose, at least not at the beginning of the trial. Not quite sure why that is, but it looks like it drops insulin too much and actually increases glucagon. This is one such example:

I had a month or two trial with it and I had zero appetite, couldn't eat at all. Certainly ymmv, but me, I'm really sensitive to incretins appetite reduction effects. Me personally, it also lowered my BG too aggressively.

Here is an excerp of a recent summary:

Rafehi et al. [45] suggested several potential mechanisms for low GI impact by Cinnamon including activation of phosphorylation of insulin receptors β-subunits; increased expression of GLUT 4, increase in (Glucose transporter) GLUT 1 mediated glucose uptake, increase in GLP-1, increase in PPAR, inhibition of intestinal α-glucosidase and pancreatic α-amylase, inhibition of gluconeogenesis, and delay of gastric emptying [45].

Extracts of cinnamon can activate glucogen synthase, activate insulin receptor kinase increase glucose uptake, inhibit glucogen synthase kinase-3 and inhibit dephosphorylation of the insulin receptor, leading to maximal phosphorylation of the insulin receptor. Insulin sensitivity will be increased by cinnamon as a result of above-mentioned mechanism [46]. Also by inhibiting insulin receptor phosphatase, it leads to increase insulin sensitivity [47].Cinnamaldehyde derived from C. zeylanicum also can reduce plasma glucose concentration via insulin secretion from pancreatic β-cells [25] and reduce HbA1c levels more effectively in streptozotocin-induced diabetic rats [17]. Cinnamaldehyde has the ability to reduce plasma glucose levels more effectively than metformin. Based on an in vivo study, Babu et al. [25] claimed that cinnamaldehyde can restore the altered plasma enzyme, such as aspartate aminotransferase, alanine aminotransferase, lactate dehydrogenase, alkaline phosphatase, and acid phosphatase levels closer to the normal level [25]. Hlebowicz et al. [48] claimed that intake of cinnamon could increase postprandial glucagon-like peptide-1 concentrations decrease insulin concentrations, and stimulate the insulin receptor [48]. Cinnamon is concentrated with highly bioactive compounds. Bioactive compounds available in cinnamon oil enhance the protein expression that plays a major role during insulin signaling, glucose transporting, and the regulation of dyslipidemia [49].

Cinnamon: Potential Role in the Prevention of Insulin Resistance,Metabolic Syndrome, and Type 2 Diabetes

those graphs ilustrate exactly what I was saying for normal people the effects are minuscule and the difference between control and cinnamon are within margin of error except for glucagon (which is very interesting indeed)

anyway you say it had a profound effect on you, how are your genetics regarding T2D? and how much and what did you use exactly? , I would like to replicate your experiment. I reallly want to give it the best shot

 

[Jin23]

those graphs ilustrate exactly what I was saying for normal people the effects are minuscule and the difference between control and cinnamon are within margin of error except for glucagon (which is very interesting indeed)

anyway you say it had a profound effect on you, how are your genetics regarding T2D? and how much and what did you use exactly? , I would like to replicate your experiment. I reallly want to give it the best shot

It's not small? Insulin went from 200 to 150, that's a 1/4 drop with glucose also dropping for 10 mg/dl at the same time. So they needed 25% less insulin for a lower glucose outcome. I call that a big response. And did you see the difference in glucagon?

This is the product I took. Used an equivalent of 3 to 6g's Cinnamon extract - 30 times more concentrate | HSN

No T2D here. Fasting insulin 4, A1c 4.8 - 5.

 

[29trt]

It's not small? Insulin went from 200 to 150, that's a 1/4 drop with glucose also dropping for 10 mg/dl at the same time. So they needed 25% less insulin for a lower glucose outcome. I call that a big response. And did you see the difference in glucagon?

This is the product I took. Used an equivalent of 3 to 6g's Cinnamon extract - 30 times more concentrate | HSN

No T2D here. Fasting insulin 4, A1c 4.8 - 5.

yeah if you look at just those two numbers sure 200 to 150 is something(even though that is an average and actual results vary so greatly that its kind of meh) but look at the area under the curve after 50min there is no difference hence why BG did not show any difference at all so the impact is minimal.... is it inducing insulin sensitivity? .... perhaps but it's not going to replace metformin or berberine for that matter
I will try an extract as you have pointed out and use the highest dose indicated maybe this time I will notice a result (I have very bad genes regarding metabolic disease amd T2d)
thank you for the suggestion.

 

[Type-IIx]

yeah if you look at just those two numbers sure 200 to 150 is something(even though that is an average and actual results vary so greatly that its kind of meh) but look at the area under the curve after 50min there is no difference hence why BG did not show any difference at all so the impact is minimal.... is it inducing insulin sensitivity? .... perhaps but it's not going to replace metformin or berberine for that matter
I will try an extract as you have pointed out and use the highest dose indicated maybe this time I will notice a result (I have very bad genes regarding metabolic disease amd T2d)
thank you for the suggestion.

In normal weights adults there is only a significant effect on fasting glucagon & C-peptide is how I read this data. Hence, why cinnamon is not used clinically in T2DM, unlike any of the drugs mentioned, including incretins (GLP-1 & GIP agonists).

 

[29trt]

In normal weights adults there is only a significant effect on fasting glucagon & C-peptide is how I read this data. Hence, why cinnamon is not used clinically in T2DM, unlike any of the drugs mentioned, including incretins (GLP-1 & GIP agonists).

thats exactly how I see it too

but than why not use it for the usually obese T2D where the effect is more pronounced regarding insulin and BG? is this another case as no patent no joy for big pharma like berberine vs metformin.?

Or the effect is too minor for most people compared with the established treatments..

 

[AlexDavis43]

Those words sound very conclusive and absolute. It's a particularly well studied compound. But as with all other natural derived supplements, you must be careful in interpreting results due to the chemical variance of various extract methods containing different phytochemicals and varying degrees of bioavailability ... Not to mention that also one whole bark powder, not extract, might contain a vastly different chemical makeup then another too.



Yes, really. It's quite effective. It has a lot of similarities with glp1 agonists, as it's a DPP-4 inhibitor. However, since it actually increases insulin sensitivity, what you see in studies is actually a reduction in postprandial insulin secretion coupled with improved BG management. What a true insulin sensitizing agent should do. Some trials show it doesn't effect T2D's post prandial glucose, at least not at the beginning of the trial. Not quite sure why that is, but it looks like it drops insulin too much and actually increases glucagon. This is one such example:

I had a month or two trial with it and I had zero appetite, couldn't eat at all. Certainly ymmv, but me, I'm really sensitive to incretins appetite reduction effects. Me personally, it also lowered my BG too aggressively.

Here is an excerp of a recent summary:

Rafehi et al. [45] suggested several potential mechanisms for low GI impact by Cinnamon including activation of phosphorylation of insulin receptors β-subunits; increased expression of GLUT 4, increase in (Glucose transporter) GLUT 1 mediated glucose uptake, increase in GLP-1, increase in PPAR, inhibition of intestinal α-glucosidase and pancreatic α-amylase, inhibition of gluconeogenesis, and delay of gastric emptying [45].

Extracts of cinnamon can activate glucogen synthase, activate insulin receptor kinase increase glucose uptake, inhibit glucogen synthase kinase-3 and inhibit dephosphorylation of the insulin receptor, leading to maximal phosphorylation of the insulin receptor. Insulin sensitivity will be increased by cinnamon as a result of above-mentioned mechanism [46]. Also by inhibiting insulin receptor phosphatase, it leads to increase insulin sensitivity [47].Cinnamaldehyde derived from C. zeylanicum also can reduce plasma glucose concentration via insulin secretion from pancreatic β-cells [25] and reduce HbA1c levels more effectively in streptozotocin-induced diabetic rats [17]. Cinnamaldehyde has the ability to reduce plasma glucose levels more effectively than metformin. Based on an in vivo study, Babu et al. [25] claimed that cinnamaldehyde can restore the altered plasma enzyme, such as aspartate aminotransferase, alanine aminotransferase, lactate dehydrogenase, alkaline phosphatase, and acid phosphatase levels closer to the normal level [25]. Hlebowicz et al. [48] claimed that intake of cinnamon could increase postprandial glucagon-like peptide-1 concentrations decrease insulin concentrations, and stimulate the insulin receptor [48]. Cinnamon is concentrated with highly bioactive compounds. Bioactive compounds available in cinnamon oil enhance the protein expression that plays a major role during insulin signaling, glucose transporting, and the regulation of dyslipidemia [49].

Cinnamon: Potential Role in the Prevention of Insulin Resistance,Metabolic Syndrome, and Type 2 Diabetes

Thanks for posting this. I'm still reading through it but wanted to thank you for taking the time.

 

[Type-IIx]

Thanks for posting this. I'm still reading through it but wanted to thank you for taking the time.

Yes, @Jin23 it's interesting. Never shy away from sharing such data.

 

[Type-IIx]

thats exactly how I see it too

but than why not use it for the usually obese T2D where the effect is more pronounced regarding insulin and BG? is this another case as no patent no joy for big pharma like berberine vs metformin.?

Or the effect is too minor for most people compared with the established treatments..

It's probably worth suggesting more cinnamon to obese prediabetes patients. There are always biologic drugs (using purification methods) that can be made, modifications to cinnamon's constituents that enhance insulin sensitivity.

There are no shortage of ways for pharmaceutical companies to make money from this if it offered distinct advantages and was worth the investment.

The profit motive is not frustrated by common, affordable raw materials. This is just conspiratorial thinking.

 

[DanishPanther]

@Type-IIx explains the benefits of GLP-1 and GIP agonists like Semaglutide and Tirzepatide, as true insulin sensitizing agents. how they are different from other weight loss drugs, and the benefits as partitioning agents for bodybuilders.

I'm sure you've read a lot about Ozempic, Wegovy, and Mounjaro for overweight sedentary people in the mainstream media but if you want to read about the use of these drug from a bodybuilding perspective, read on:

Semaglutide and Tirzepatide are More Than Just Weight Loss Drugs

Learn how GLP-1 and GIP agonists like Semaglutide and Tirzepatide enhance insulin sensitivity, preserve muscle mass and reduce fat stores.

thinksteroids.com

Interesting, I wonder if being on this makes metformin redundant then.

 

[Type-IIx]

Interesting, I wonder if being on this makes metformin redundant then.

If referring to cinnamon, probably not since @Jin23 described some mechanisms of cinnamon that go beyond glucose disposal. This is not to say Met is a mere GDA, it also, besides decreasing gluconeogensis in the liver, acts in the intestines by GLP-1 as well as increasing gut utilization of glucose.

If refering to GLP-1 & GIP agonists (incretins), there are combinations drugs that include insulin (e.g., Soliqua), It's not unheard of to combine Met & incretins to treat T2DM, with reducing blood glucose levels & HbA1c as an end-point, and requiring dose reduction.

 

[DanishPanther]

Just wants to say I found this thread insanely informative.
Thank you guys, both Type-IIx & Jin23

 

[Type-IIx]

Ampouletude: Combined RhGH & GLP-1: Rationales & Practical Use for Recomp (↑↑ Fat Loss & ↑Muscle Gain) (Article)

A related article for the hardcore readership.

 

[Jin23]

Ampouletude: Combined RhGH & GLP-1: Rationales & Practical Use for Recomp (↑↑ Fat Loss & ↑Muscle Gain) (Article)

A related article for the hardcore readership.

I get a blank page?

 

[Type-IIx]

Ampouletude: Combined RhGH & GLP-1: Rationales & Practical Use for Recomp (↑↑ Fat Loss & ↑Muscle Gain) (Article)

A related article for the hardcore readership.

Ampouletude: Combined RhGH and GLP-1 Agonist: Rationales and Practical Use for Recomp (simultaneous fat loss & muscle gain)

 

[Type-IIx]

I get a blank page?

Sorry about that, shared the link above.

 

[Jin23]

Ampouletude: Combined RhGH and GLP-1 Agonist: Rationales and Practical Use for Recomp (simultaneous fat loss & muscle gain)

While I appreciated the first half of the article, the mechanics behind GH's lipolysis effects, the last part I found lacking, specifically the depth and the amount information. The tittle and the first half of the article overpromise and then the last half severely underdelivers. It looks like you ran out of steam once you got to GLP's. It's basically an article about GH and then a short stub about incretins at the end. It looks like it could be a great article if you expanded the second part!

 

[Type-IIx]

While I appreciated the first half of the article, the mechanics behind GH's lipolysis effects, the last part I found lacking, specifically the depth and the amount information. The tittle and the first half of the article overpromise and then the last half severely underdelivers. It looks like you ran out of steam once you got to GLP's. It's basically an article about GH and then a short stub about incretins at the end. It looks like it could be a great article if you expanded the second part!

Didn't run out of ideas I redacted my practical applications because I like getting paid.

 

[AlexDavis43]

Didn't run out of ideas I redacted my practical applications because I like getting paid.

It is time. Release the book.