Tamoxifen is mainly geared toward gyno prophylaxis. It does have the secondary function of signalling for HPTA upregulation at the hypothalamus, but per wikipedia, this is reported to be minor. Clomid on the other hand was created to upregulate HPTA signaling for fertility treatment, and that's the drug that primarily restarts one's HPTA. Why not just use tamoxifen as needed (ie if nipples get sensitive) instead of planning to dose it each day. If anything, clomid is the only one that should be dosed each day for 2 weeks or so because that's what really "igniting the engine again". Tamoxifen is more of a "spark-insulator" that prevents "damage from reignition"
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
PCT should be based mostly on clomid, right?
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Drex
New Member
From my point of view the best option for PCT could be tamoxifen or clomid or both, but its important to know the blood tests values (with hormonal profile) to establish a proper pct protocol.
Its important to know if there the pituitary is cancelled or the testicular funtion is not adequated (for example, if the leydig cells create testosterona inside the testicles without any problem) or both options, because if the testicular funtion is not working good is necesarry to add HCG or ovitrelle or HMG for reactivate the funcionability of them. Its important to check the LH, FSH and testosterone level in blood tests, because in this case is very important to add tamoxifen or clomid (either is good option with similar results) if the pituitary is not working good (LH and FSH =0 or very low)
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I have seen users with good gonadotropin levels (fsh and LH in high level), but with the testosterone very low. And this could be for apoptosis leydig cells or testicular atrophy due to steroids use (essential in this case to use HCG or HMG).
Its important to know if there the pituitary is cancelled or the testicular funtion is not adequated (for example, if the leydig cells create testosterona inside the testicles without any problem) or both options, because if the testicular funtion is not working good is necesarry to add HCG or ovitrelle or HMG for reactivate the funcionability of them. Its important to check the LH, FSH and testosterone level in blood tests, because in this case is very important to add tamoxifen or clomid (either is good option with similar results) if the pituitary is not working good (LH and FSH =0 or very low)
Oral tamoxifen citrate treatment is more effective in normogonadotropic patients who have follicle-stimulating hormone levels within the lower half of normal - PubMed
This study revealed that initial FSH values can be used as a marker to estimate the probability that a patient will benefit from oral TC therapy. Patients in the lower FSH group had statistically higher chances of having higher sperm counts after treatment, and it is rational to advise these...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Clomiphene citrate: A potential alternative for testosterone therapy in hypogonadal males
Hypogonadism is a worldwide problem among men causing sexual, physical and mental problems. Testosterone therapy is the first‐choice treatment for male hypogonadism, with several side effects, that is, subfertility. Clomiphene citrate (CC) is ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Hormonal changes in tamoxifen treated men with idiopathic oligozoospermia - PubMed
Three months of tamoxifen treatment of 43 men with idiopathic oligozoospermia, out of which 20 completed the study, resulted in a significant enhancement of sperm motility, but the improvement of sperm parameters was in no relation to the FSH response to short time tamoxifen treatment. There was...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism - PubMed
Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I have seen users with good gonadotropin levels (fsh and LH in high level), but with the testosterone very low. And this could be for apoptosis leydig cells or testicular atrophy due to steroids use (essential in this case to use HCG or HMG).
Hi,
This is the exact discussion i need to be on now, Need some suggestions on the pct.
I ran a cycle for 8 weeks with test + primo. Now i am looking to do PCT, i have clomid on hand. I am thinking about getting (clomid + nolvadex) or (run HCG one shot per week + clomid) to be on a safer side.
what's your suggestion? @Drex
This is the exact discussion i need to be on now, Need some suggestions on the pct.
I ran a cycle for 8 weeks with test + primo. Now i am looking to do PCT, i have clomid on hand. I am thinking about getting (clomid + nolvadex) or (run HCG one shot per week + clomid) to be on a safer side.
what's your suggestion? @Drex
my friend always told me if you want to stay natural and be able to do cycles forever avoid nolvadex because it blocks estrogen from interacting with the testis and taking that for 4 weeks would do 10x more damage to the leydig cells than the 12 week testosterone cycle. This doesnt seem to be common knowledge though I dont know where this guys got this info from, his dad I guess?? but this guy is 40 years old huge has only done cycles never cruised and supposedly according to him still has 700-800ng/dl natural test lvls
BrockSamson42
Member
Your body produces testosterone from the HPTA by reading that theres no estrogen in your system, not the other way around. So it would actually have the opposite effect your "friend" stated during a PCT.
Tamoxifen will bind to the hypothalamus and send signals that there's little to no circulating estrogen, this is how/why Tamoxifen works for pct.
Clomid will effect the testes overall get back into production mode. They compliment each other in PCT.
Uh, whatever your "friend" said is yet again more bro science lore.
Tamoxifen will bind to the hypothalamus and send signals that there's little to no circulating estrogen, this is how/why Tamoxifen works for pct.
Clomid will effect the testes overall get back into production mode. They compliment each other in PCT.
Uh, whatever your "friend" said is yet again more bro science lore.
what i said was about tamoxifen blocking estrogen from interacting with the bodies organs including the testis causing serious damage to leydig cells over time. not anything to do with anything else like how they theorize it stimulate fsh and lh. I did find some studies on this that support what he said: u can look it up yourself im too lazy to find it again but tamoxifen causes hypogonadism in long term use with men taking it for breast cancer. Now why would it do that if its such a great thing that only stimulates fsh and lh???
"Few AEs have been documented in men receiving tamoxifen for infertility and idiopathic gynecomastia. Less than 5% of men withdrew from tamoxifen therapy because of toxicity. This suggests that for most men, tamoxifen is well-tolerated. Of those who discontinued tamoxifen, the majority were male breast cancer patients, and cardiovascular events were the most common reason for stopping tamoxifen treatment. Unfortunately, in many cases, the reasons for withdrawing tamoxifen were unspecified. Based on the available evidence, tamoxifen's AE profile appears to vary depending upon which male population is treated. Also, the frequency at which AEs occur varies – less AEs in men with infertility and idiopathic gynecomastia compared to men with prostate cancer or breast cancer. Long-term studies that rigorously document the side-effect profile of tamoxifen in men are lacking."
----- this is why no urologist will ever prescribe tamoxifen for fertility or hypogonadism treatment on this shit and they stick to clomid, hcg, hmg, theres your bro science its actually the shit you believe that became mainstream cuz of some doctor who doesnt even lift or take steroids said it was a good idea in his book he wrote in the 70s
Spaceman Spiff
Well-known Member
Are you talking about Scally? Idk
We are talking about assisting with a HPTA reboot and drugs working synergistically. Not for hypogonadism
no i dont think so i dont remember his name or the books name lol... It was a self proclaimed steroid expert doctor who wrote a book going over the effects and pros and cons of every steroid that all the old pros supposedly read. In it he advised using tamoxifen for pct the same protocol still seen today
its not like it doesnt make sense to me either, using it to increase lh,fsh, to control gyno from being hypogonadal during pct but if its also eating your nuts its not worth it. Would be better to just take a small dose of an ai instead and only use it if u actually start developing gyno
the whole thing ican try my best with my idiot brain to try to simplify it is:
tamoxifen:
-increases fsh,lh ,by blocking estrogen: good
-blocks gynocomastia development from estrogen and hypogonadism from steroid cessation: good
-blocks estrogen from interacting with the testis: bad, really bad, so bad this might even cause more damage to the testis overall than the steroid cycle itself
Spaceman Spiff
Well-known Member
to say it causes more damage to the testes is a pretty far stretch.
People who run cycles regularly have used nolvadex for e2 control.
Its not an ongoing usage either, its just temporary to help with reboot too.
Spaceman Spiff
Well-known Member
Ask Michael Scally: Why Use Both Clomid and Nolvadex Together for PCT?
Q: I have read that Clomid and Novadex are very similar products. Is this true? If so why would you need to take both? A: The administration of antiestrogens is a common treatment because anti estrogens interfere with the normal negative feedback of sex steroids at hypothalamic and pituitary...
thinksteroids.com
interesting read
i dont think so if you block estrogen from interacting with testis the leydig cells just up and die. with testosterone cycles they just atrophy a while for them to die...this is all just theory though based on what someone who knows much more about this kind of stuff told me and the little ive read about it myself... but its enough that ill never use nolva for pct just out of pure paranoia only use it short term for gyno.
Spaceman Spiff
Well-known Member
Idk where you are actually getting your science from at all .
What does estrogen have to do with signaling the leydig cells?
Let me get this straight. it sounds like you think estrogen is the reason why testes produces testosterone?
no but ive been told estrogen is essential for how the testes function and maintain leydig cell health which i found another couple studies on in rats...that i dont remember not gonna look for. just seems like tamox is something that was never thoroughly tested and appears to paradoxically cause hypogonadism in some cases(u see that thing on men with breast cancer i linked). So its just not worth taking for pct in my opinion...cuz noone knows if its actually effective cuz theres nothing on it whatsoever and has only been used off label by people like us
Spaceman Spiff
Well-known Member
I don't want to be a dick but If you don't understand how it works you are rambling on but a topic you do not understand.
There are a lot of studies where they use tamoxifen for fertility btw.
You are creating a logical thought with no base knowledge.
bro but those few studies where they use tamox for fertility its all just increase of seminal volume of course its gonna do that with how it increases lh and fsh but then theres also all the stuff like this:
Low-dose tamoxifen treatment in juvenile males has long-term adverse effects on the reproductive system: implications for inducible transgenics - Scientific Reports
The tamoxifen-inducible Cre system is a popular transgenic method for controlling the induction of recombination by Cre at a specific time and in a specific cell type. However, tamoxifen is not an inert inducer of recombination, but an established endocrine disruptor with mixed...
www.nature.com
Effects of Tamoxifen on DNA Integrity in Mice
Background: Tamoxifen (TX) is widely used to treat idiopathic infertility in men. Using TX has been shown to produce sperm in patients with oligospermia and azoos...
Effects of different doses of tamoxifen on the sperm parameters and chromatin quality in mice: An experimental model
Tamoxifen (TX) is widely used for the treatment of male factor and idiopathic infertility. It has been shown that TX induces sperm production and so improves male fertility.This study evaluated the effects of different doses of TX on the sperm parameters ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
showing the increased sperm is shit
I think if tamox was really as effective as clomid/enclo there would be as many studies that confirm it instead its all muddy unclear. I think its only as effective at increasing fsh/lh. I think the medical field knows tamox is overall harmful with its other effects on reproductive health but its not like the pharmaceutical industry is going to make it obvious to us lol
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