Please help (prob failed recovery/pct)

[Fortified]

Hello all, was Just wondering if i could get some help as I am not sure what I should do right now (or if I should do anything at all)

Basically last february 2015 i did my first cycle of test Only with orals at the end to get ready for a contest. Total about 16 weeks 450mg/week. Nolva was used throughout and for One month after for pct this is the Only thing i used. I am male 34 y.o.

After the show i reverse dieted into a calorie surplus and wanted to put on mass. 3.5 months after pct i had put on almost 25 lbs but felt good going to my annual doctors appointment. I have a blood test from that point in Time:
Cholesterol
Ldl 5.37 (over 4.9 is very high)
Hdl1.52
(family history of bad Cholesterol but through diet and exercise had manged to greatly help Cholesterol pre-cycle)
Total test 15.5 (ref 8.6-29.0)
Free test 234 (ref 131-406)
Bio avail test 5.93 (ref 3.15-9.84)
E2 51 (ref 55-165)
Shbg 50.5 (ref 18.3-54.1)

Like One week later i had what i think is called an (estro) rebound; felt very tired, No motivation, irritability, forgetfullness, did not want to eat or even lift, etc. etc

I panicked a bit and attributed this possibly to the Weight gain (aromatisation in fatty tissue) so i started to diet down at this point (october 2015) to get back to healthy Weight esp since Cholesterol was so horribly bad. I adjusted calories to slightly below maintenance. By february i had lost back like 17 lbs and was feeling and looking great, i thought i was Well on the Road to recovery! My energy is great and motivation has returned. However i was stumped when earlier this week i went for a follow up test and the result:

Ldl 4.02
Hdl 1.35
However,
Total test 9.4 (ref 8.6-29.0)
Free test is now 156 (ref 200-620)
Bio available 3.95 (ref 4.35-14.30)
E2 45 (ref 55-165)
Shbg 40.5 (ref 18.3-54.1)
FSH 2.8 (ref 1.6-11.0)
LH 1.4 (ref 0.8-6.1)
Prolactin 12.2 (ref 2.7-16.9)

My doc congratulated me on getting back to healthy Weight and controlling my Cholesterol, he thinks its good I'm feeling great but thinks i should still see endo as my test is now even lower.

Does anyone have Any ideas? Is there a way i can restore HPTA right now ? I dont plan on AAS ever again. Should i Just wait it out? And What should i Tell the endo?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Burrr]

Not sure how to get your numbers back, maybe some low dose clomid for a month or so.
It was probably a bad move to use nolva the whole cycle. Dont do that again.

 

[Fortified]

Not sure how to get your numbers back, maybe some low dose clomid for a month or so.
It was probably a bad move to use nolva the whole cycle. Dont do that again.

Ok so could there be any side effects or downsides to runnning clomid? What dose should I run?

Also I'm Just trying to make sense of the situation... Does it make sense that I appear to be more shut down now than 4 months ago? Could it be that 3.5 months after pct I still had some exogenous in my system that would have fudged the blood work? Then shortly after when i had my perceived "crash" it had left? And I've been shut down since?

But not even this theory makes sense since about One month after that crash i was still very sexually active, having somewhat regular morning erections and even conceieved a child..

 

[Burrr]

I think it's a that you had some nolva still working in your system, and once that wore off your LH and FSH tanked.
It's probably just gonna take some time to come back around.... hopefully.

 

[Fortified]

Thanks for the help Burr. So You would recommend Just clomid to start as opposed to clomid + nolva? Should I discuss this with my endo?

I'll keep this post updated

 

[eryximachus]

Thanks for the help Burr. So You would recommend Just clomid to start as opposed to clomid + nolva? Should I discuss this with my endo?

I'll keep this post updated

At this stage, I'd do 25mg of clomid per day for 6 months.

 

[Fortified]

I like the idea of just clomid for an extended period of time but based on what I've read it seems some subjects relapse several months later to low T levels.

As of right now I've contacted Dr Scally as this seems like a case for his power pct program. I'll check with my endo and see what she thinks as well...

Btw does the fact that my LH and FSH are low but in range mean that a signal could slowly be starting to get my natural test production going? I'm just trying to decide if I should still "wait n see"

 

[eryximachus]

I like the idea of just clomid for an extended period of time but based on what I've read it seems some subjects relapse several months later to low T levels.

As of right now I've contacted Dr Scally as this seems like a case for his power pct program. I'll check with my endo and see what she thinks as well...

Btw does the fact that my LH and FSH are low but in range mean that a signal could slowly be starting to get my natural test production going? I'm just trying to decide if I should still "wait n see"

Dr. Scally can really only help you interpret your blood work. And, while the power pct protocol always works upon completion, there is no evidence the decline you mention doesn't happen either.

Scally also has a real axe to grind with clomid and especially Androxal.

I personally take 25mg of clomid a day permanently when I am off cycle, which is the vast majority of the time these days. I don't have any negative side effects at that dose.

HCG is just a test to see if you are primary. It really all boils down to clomid or TRT.

 

[Fortified]

Dr. Scally can really only help you interpret your blood work. And, while the power pct protocol always works upon completion, there is no evidence the decline you mention doesn't happen either.

Scally also has a real axe to grind with clomid and especially Androxal.

I personally take 25mg of clomid a day permanently when I am off cycle, which is the vast majority of the time these days. I don't have any negative side effects at that dose.

HCG is just a test to see if you are primary. It really all boils down to clomid or TRT.

Alright eryximachus thanks for the input. You really think there's No hope for a natural recovery? It was Only One cycle

 

[Fortified]

So the past week I've been having night sweats and occasional hot flash during the day... I'm thinking this is yet another symptom of low T that I Will Just have to deal with if i do opt for a natural recovery??

 

[hackskii]

Do you have current labs like the last month or so?

 

[Fortified]

Hackskii, the latest labs are from March 14th..

I have had a bunch of weird symptoms since then? Should I test again?

 

[hackskii]

Well, I have seen first hand 25mg per day moves T way up, and can put LH out of range.
But, no worries, you can taper that and your LH wont tank.
FYI, 100mg clomid over 5 to 7 days doubles LH output and can increase FSH by 20% to 50%.
It seems to work better longer (aside from the studies suggesting otherwise).

I doubt you need hCG this late in the game.

 

[Fortified]

Ok so I am still wanting to get retested soon though just to make sure nothing funky is going on. After that then you suggest depending on what labs look like a strong dose of clomid for a week?

 

[hackskii]

Well, I just used that as an example, but that came from some medical paperwork on hypogonadism and this is called the clomiphene stimulation test.

Can you get an erection without visual stimulation?
Can you have sex and ejaculate?
Do you get night time erections, or morning wood?
Is your skin dry, and or have a rash?
Do you have normal energy levels?

 

[Fortified]

When I first got lab results I became extremely anxious and thought I had ED. Doc prescribed cialis which I took once 2+ weeks ago. But I have performed since then with no problems

So now, erection I can get just laying in bed with voice stimulation.

Yes have had good sex with wife many times and can ejaculate.

I have had night erections and soft half erect morning wood once the problem is my anxiety is bad these days so I have insomnia and therefore sleep quality is bad so difficult to evaluate night erections...

Skin may be dry esp scalp (noticed increased hair loss last few months) no rash

Energy levels hard to evaluate I have anxiety so I'm wired during the day, but I don't experience fatigue if that's what you're wondering because I'm always on edge

 

[hackskii]

When I first got lab results I became extremely anxious and thought I had ED. Doc prescribed cialis which I took once 2+ weeks ago. But I have performed since then with no problems

So now, erection I can get just laying in bed with voice stimulation.

Yes have had good sex with wife many times and can ejaculate.

I have had night erections and soft half erect morning wood once the problem is my anxiety is bad these days so I have insomnia and therefore sleep quality is bad so difficult to evaluate night erections...

Skin may be dry esp scalp (noticed increased hair loss last few months) no rash

Energy levels hard to evaluate I have anxiety so I'm wired during the day, but I don't experience fatigue if that's what you're wondering because I'm always on edge

I would be curious to see some bloods only because you may well be with in range, I noticed that in the low 300 range it was hard to get hard.

 

[Fortified]

Good suggestion. I was thinking getting new blood work in May/June as it will be exactly 1 year post aas and pct and go from there.

In the meantime I hope symptoms get better...

 

[hackskii]

I do too, I doubt it is hormonal given this amount of time.

 

[Fortified]

But they do seem to be the classic test withdrawal/ crash symptoms... Just occurring 8-9 months later