Please help (prob failed recovery/pct)

[Fortified]

^^^ thanks for posting, id say that pct u did didn't work---- cause I had similar freak out when I did first cycle without pct....... And it took about a year for the body to recoup naturally...... shit sucked--- fucking gym bro science..... Should have done my homework

The sequence of events is a bit weird though... It's not like i Did NO pct.. I Did one month of nolva, and 3.5 months later i Did a blood test and seemed "fine" its Only at the 9 month mark after the cycle that stuff got weird...

Anyway Im Just happy things are going in the right direction i'm even getting night Time boners again. Never thought I'd be so happy about that.

Also thanks for the advice but probably Will Never Touch AAS again! Unless its that one last lifelong bike ride that takes me to the grave

 

[Wood4days]

Who advised you to take nolvadex the entire cycle? Nolvadex is only for PCT. You're suppose to take arimidex during cycle. There's your problem there.

 

[Fortified]

Who advised you to take nolvadex the entire cycle? Nolvadex is only for PCT. You're suppose to take arimidex during cycle. There's your problem there.

It was the guy who coached me for my contest. I didn't know any better so I trusted him. What is so bad about using a serm throughout the cycle? I dont think my estrogen was ever out of control, this was eod dose iirc more to prevent bloating and gyno. But yes I guess an AI seems more logical when using exogenous in general.

 

[eryximachus]

It was the guy who coached me for my contest. I didn't know any better so I trusted him. What is so bad about using a serm throughout the cycle? I dont think my estrogen was ever out of control, this was eod dose iirc more to prevent bloating and gyno. But yes I guess an AI seems more logical when using exogenous in general.

Nolvadex is old school to stop gyno on cycle.

Still on the upswing?

 

[Fortified]

Nolvadex is old school to stop gyno on cycle.

Still on the upswing?

Eryximachus,

I haven't tested again as it's only been a month, but yes i feel symptoms have pretty much resolved, even my sleep seems much better, getting night Time and morning erections on a regular basis now. My workouts getting better and better.

I'll probably follow up again at My yearly doctor's visit in a few months and post new results

 

[Dr JIM]

Hello all, was Just wondering if i could get some help as I am not sure what I should do right now (or if I should do anything at all)

Basically last february 2015 i did my first cycle of test Only with orals at the end to get ready for a contest. Total about 16 weeks 450mg/week. Nolva was used throughout and for One month after for pct this is the Only thing i used. I am male 34 y.o.

After the show i reverse dieted into a calorie surplus and wanted to put on mass. 3.5 months after pct i had put on almost 25 lbs but felt good going to my annual doctors appointment. I have a blood test from that point in Time:
Cholesterol
Ldl 5.37 (over 4.9 is very high)
Hdl1.52
(family history of bad Cholesterol but through diet and exercise had manged to greatly help Cholesterol pre-cycle)
Total test 15.5 (ref 8.6-29.0)
Free test 234 (ref 131-406)
Bio avail test 5.93 (ref 3.15-9.84)
E2 51 (ref 55-165)
Shbg 50.5 (ref 18.3-54.1)

Like One week later i had what i think is called an (estro) rebound; felt very tired, No motivation, irritability, forgetfullness, did not want to eat or even lift, etc. etc

I panicked a bit and attributed this possibly to the Weight gain (aromatisation in fatty tissue) so i started to diet down at this point (october 2015) to get back to healthy Weight esp since Cholesterol was so horribly bad. I adjusted calories to slightly below maintenance. By february i had lost back like 17 lbs and was feeling and looking great, i thought i was Well on the Road to recovery! My energy is great and motivation has returned. However i was stumped when earlier this week i went for a follow up test and the result:

Ldl 4.02
Hdl 1.35
However,
Total test 9.4 (ref 8.6-29.0)
Free test is now 156 (ref 200-620)
Bio available 3.95 (ref 4.35-14.30)
E2 45 (ref 55-165)
Shbg 40.5 (ref 18.3-54.1)
FSH 2.8 (ref 1.6-11.0)
LH 1.4 (ref 0.8-6.1)
Prolactin 12.2 (ref 2.7-16.9)

My doc congratulated me on getting back to healthy Weight and controlling my Cholesterol, he thinks its good I'm feeling great but thinks i should still see endo as my test is now even lower.

Does anyone have Any ideas? Is there a way i can restore HPTA right now ? I dont plan on AAS ever again. Should i Just wait it out? And What should i Tell the endo?

Thanks for the help.

"My energy is great and my motivation has returned" but I'm wanting to raise my TT level anyway bc "ITS LOW".

Wrong approach UNLESS you have PRE-AAS labs that prove otherwise.

The point folk have "Low T" and do NOT warrant or benefit from therapy!

 

[Fortified]

"My energy is great and my motivation has returned" but I'm wanting to raise my TT level anyway bc "ITS LOW".

Wrong approach UNLESS you have PRE-AAS labs that prove otherwise.

My bad I thought I included them itt but here is a blood test from October 2013 long before any AAS

Note it was taken in the evening which is why I think the reference ranges for testosterone are modified?

Cholesterol was my best ever
Ldl 3.05
Hdl 1.65

Test total 14.9 (ref 6.8-20.0)
Shbg 24.1 (ref 10.1-51.3)
Free test 340 (ref 131-406)
Bioavailable test 8.79 (ref 3.15-9.84)

As you can see things are at the higher end of normal range.

 

[Fortified]

The point folk have "Low T" and do NOT warrant or benefit from therapy!

I'm not sure what you mean by this? Who are you referring to?

 

[Dr JIM]

Once again having PRE-AAS labs simplified matters and these labs prove WHY THEY ARE SOOOOO IMPORTANT.

Bc from these labs its relatively obvious your PCT was ineffective by the question is WHY?

Were the SERMs you were using a legit Pharm product?

How many WEEKS lapsed bt your last PIN and when you began PCT?

How many WEEKS of PCT were used AND at what dose?

Finally since you state you essentially feel fine and have improved what matters much more (your cholesterol level)
don't rush doing anything lets get the facts straight FIRST

 

[Dr JIM]

Nolvadex is old school to stop gyno on cycle.

Still on the upswing?

And what is the "New Schools" thought on how to treat GCM during a cycle!

Let me guess Raloxifene based on a couple studies (one that I've posted) conducted on subjects who had prepubertal GCM.

Or is the "new school" thought that drug which is the new kid on the block always better than a old med that has been thoroughly researched such as Novladex.

Nonetheless, using an intracycle AI or SERM as prophylaxis for GCM is in those who have NO HISTORY of GCM is
ludicrous, or maybe that's old school also.

No wonder sooo many folk have side effects when running AAS (including empty pockets) they don't know WTF they are doing!

Some things never change.

 

[Fortified]

Once again having PRE-AAS labs simplified matters and these labs prove WHY THEY ARE SOOOOO IMPORTANT.

Bc from these labs its relatively obvious your PCT was ineffective by the question is WHY?

Were the SERMs you were using a legit Pharm product?

How many WEEKS lapsed bt your last PIN and when you began PCT?

How many WEEKS of PCT were used AND at what dose?

Finally since you state you essentially feel fine and have improved what matters much more (your cholesterol level)
don't rush doing anything lets get the facts straight FIRST

1)It was not pharmaceutical grade nolvadex no.

2)no time lapsed I continued the nolvadex (which i was using eod during the cycle) and started the pct the day following last injection for 4 weeks

3) dosage was 40/40/20/20
(40mg ed weeks 1 and 2
20mg ed weeks 3 and 4)

 

[Dr JIM]

Now we likely know WHY PCT FAILED, number ONE and TWO!

Purchase PHARMACEUTICAL CLOMID and start it at 100mg
for perhaps 2-3 days and then decrease to the "recommended"
dose of 50mg a day for FOUR WEEKS.

Retest you LH and TT level TWO WEEKS thereafter.

 

[Dr JIM]

The "other reason" for PCT failure HTPA recovery can be remarkably slowed as we age,
and more time is usually all that's required. Yet I'm NOT
suggesting that's the case in this instance!

 

[eryximachus]

Didn't work for me last summer. Clomid only works and holds if your nuts are working.

Gotta jolt them awake first.

The "other reason" for PCT failure HTPA recovery can be remarkably slowed as we age,
and more time is usually all that's required. Yet I'm NOT
suggesting that's the case in this instance!

I personally have never had gyno, but in general, I have found that pharmaceutical grade AIs work well and fast to reduce test bloat. As I never have had gyno, I've never used nolvadex for anything other than PCT. But, it seems AIs have gained favor these days. And not just for AAS, but breast cancer as well.

In any event, the slowness of recovery I think is something not discussed frequently enough. After 35, I tried to keep cycles mild (I have done but 4 in the past 3.5 years), and the last two have been primo. Recovery still sucks, and the older I get, the more it just isn't worth my time. So, I've decided that's it. Done. Finished. I turn 40 in 1.5 years. Here's hoping I still have some libido left and can recover from exercising without too much trouble.

I wish more people on this site would stick around after they quit using gear and tell us how life is years down the road. I'm going to try to remember to pop in now and again for some positive reminders.

 

[master.on]

Now we likely know WHY PCT FAILED, number ONE and TWO!

Purchase PHARMACEUTICAL CLOMID and start it at 100mg
for perhaps 2-3 days and then decrease to the "recommended"
dose of 50mg a day for FOUR WEEKS.

Retest you LH and TT level TWO WEEKS thereafter.

If you can't get pct drugs from a doctor
at least get them from an online pharmacy NOT dealing steroids or other banned substances.
They are already breaking the law selling controled substances
do you think they care about a relatively minor crime of selling counterfeits?

BTW try some HCG to see if your testes still produce T upon stimulation.

 

[Fortified]

Now we likely know WHY PCT FAILED, number ONE and TWO!

Purchase PHARMACEUTICAL CLOMID and start it at 100mg
for perhaps 2-3 days and then decrease to the "recommended"
dose of 50mg a day for FOUR WEEKS.

Retest you LH and TT level TWO WEEKS thereafter.

Dr JIM,

Thanks for the input and I do actually have pharmaceutical clomid prescribed by an endocrinologist I saw, however at this point don't you think it would be best to continue waiting? My labs are all coming in well within range now and symptoms are greatly reduced. I was actually tempted to try the clomid anyway but I'm worried it will no doubt send my LH, TT, free T soaring but then I will experience a "crash" or some type of rebound effect once the clomid is stopped.

 

[Dr JIM]

Number 3 was ALSO a reason your PCT failed bc at FOUR weeks after the last injection of T-e there's STILL enough exogenous TT hanging around to decrease the effectiveness of SERMS.

To that end I don't know where you obtained such PCT instructions from BUT, I can only hope "your coach" wasn't responsible.

Such is NOT uncommon coming from unlearned "bros" who THINK they know what they're doing!

 

[Fortified]

To that end I don't know where you obtained such PCT instructions from BUT, I can only hope "your coach" wasn't responsible.

Such is NOT uncommon coming from unlearned "bros" who THINK they know what they're doing!

He's actually a national level BBer who is himself coached by one of if not the top guru in the U.S. Right now who absolutely everyone will know who I'm talking about... But I won't name names

The stupid thing was of course Just blindly trusting whoever instead of doing my own research.

 

[Dr JIM]

Dr JIM,

Thanks for the input and I do actually have pharmaceutical clomid prescribed by an endocrinologist I saw, however at this point don't you think it would be best to continue waiting? My labs are all coming in well within range now and symptoms are greatly reduced. I was actually tempted to try the clomid anyway but I'm worried it will no doubt send my LH, TT, free T soaring but then I will experience a "crash" or some type of rebound effect once the clomid is stopped.

You're correct neither CLOMID or AAS should be used by those who have such "worries"!

Good luck

 

[Fortified]

You're correct neither CLOMID or AAS should be used by those who have such "worries"!

Good luck

So are you saying that, in your experience, after your proposed course of clomid (not just 2 weeks but month later) my T levels could be no worse than current levels?