Qingdao Sigma Chemical Co., Ltd (International, US, EU, Canada and Australia domestic

[Ghoul]

 

[BuildABro]

Very cute @Ghoul but not unexpected given your contributions to this thread of late.

 

[Ghoul]

-Peptides often clump into aggregates.

-Aggregates can induce side effects, and immunity to the peptide.

-The correct filter easily removes the largest aggregates that cause the most problems.

The critics: "Shut up, shut up! This probably never happens and if it does it's so rare it doesn't matter and it's stupid to bring it up!"

Then why do you care about dimer in HGH?

Dimer is aggregation.

If aggregation doesn't matter, why do you demand testing for dimer in HGH?

 

[WindonSea]

I searched and found some grey info, so if there’s more concrete info I’ve been unable to find on this thread, I apologize for this question in advance:

Do we have any data on how long glp1’s last/are effective after resonstitution? Is Tirz the same as Sema? Different?

 

[Sampei]

Longer acting Tren ester with a less pronounced side effect profile from what I have read on the subject. Yes, a more expensive option, but I got a kit from Tracy’s last promo for 150 bucks, so still pretty cost effective

Must be a pain in the ass tho, I can see it is usually brewed only at 100mg and not over.
At least tren E can be easily brewed at 200mg/ml.

Not that it matters much as 300/350mg is usually what I believe the max dosage one should use but still. It's 3/3.5ml Vs 1.5ml
I like low volume of injections so I'll probably stick with the Enant

Even so I'll gather info if the hex can be brewed without pip at higher concentration

@narta any idea?

 

[AnTabolic73]

I searched and found some great info, so if there’s more concrete info I’ve been unable to find on this thread, I apologize for this question in advance:

Do we have any data on how long glp1’s last/are effective after resonstitution? Is Tirz the same as Sema? Different?

I'm curious as to what u found. Specifically tirz.

 

[WindonSea]

I'm curious as to what u found. Specifically tirz.

FML…typed “grey info” and it autocorrected to “great”. I’m sorry to give false hope, because I have nothing of value to share. Hoping somebody does! Edited my post to reflect correct wording.

 

[BuildABro]

Must be a pain in the ass tho, I can see it is usually brewed only at 100mg and not over.
At least tren E can be easily brewed at 200mg/ml.

Not that it matters much as 300/350mg is usually what I believe the max dosage one should use but still. It's 3/3.5ml Vs 1.5ml
I like low volume of injections so I'll probably stick with the Enant

Even so I'll gather info if the hex can be brewed without pip at higher concentration

@narta any idea?

Unfortunately I know almost nothing about the brewing process except what little I have been able to gather from threads here. But yes, 100 mg/ml seems to be the standard with Hex. I was at 150 mg/per week my first cycle and I’ll probably go for 200 this time around. I’ll probably document my cycle here to some degree.

 

[Ghoul]

I searched and found some great info, so if there’s more concrete info I’ve been unable to find on this thread, I apologize for this question in advance:

Do we have any data on how long glp1’s last/are effective after resonstitution? Is Tirz the same as Sema? Different?

It's impossible to answer. Pharma Semaglutide and Tirzapetide pens come in reconstituted form and have an expiration date of nearly TWO YEARS. Per the manufacturers they are also good for 30 days without refrigeration.

The ingredients only list the peptide, sterile water, benzyl alcohol, and a ph adjuster.

However, the pens are terminally sterilized with radiation to kill all bacteria within them, packaging is carefully designed to not introduce contaminants (from the stopper, for instance) that can chemically degrade the peptide or promote aggregation.

UGL peptides are far sloppier, with none of these elements as carefully controlled.

The best you can do is to only use pharma BAC water, protect it from light, keep it refrigerated, wipe the rubber stopper to prevent bacteria from being introduced into the vial, and hope the chemists who made it did a good job.

How long do you need it to last? In my experience, peptides are good for at least a month, some have been dead after two, others still good a year later.

 

[WindonSea]

It's impossible to answer. Pharma Semaglutide and Tirzapetide pens come in reconstituted form and have an expiration date of nearly TWO YEARS. Per the manufacturers they are also good for 30 days without refrigeration.

The ingredients only list the peptide, sterile water, benzyl alcohol, and a ph adjuster.

However, the pens are terminally sterilized with radiation to kill all bacteria within them, packaging is carefully designed to not introduce contaminants (from the stopper, for instance) that can chemically degrade the peptide or promote aggregation.

UGL peptides are far sloppier, with none of these elements as carefully controlled.

The best you can do is to only use pharma BAC water, protect it from light, keep it refrigerated, wipe the rubber stopper to prevent bacteria from being introduced into the vial, and hope the chemists who made it did a good job.

How long do you need it to last? In my experience, peptides are good for at least a month, some have been dead after two, others still good a year later.

Wow thx for such a well laid out, educational answer! Much appreciated. Also there was a typo in my original post, should have read “grey info” not “ great info”. I’ve only found grey info to date, nothing concrete.

I dose 15mg Tirz on Mondays from either a 30mg or 40mg QSC vial. So I just need the Tirz to be effective for 3 weeks.

However, I also dose 1mg Sema on Thursdays to keep effect going. From a 10mg vial, that means I need the vial to last 10 weeks after being mixed. I don’t know if this is reasonable to expect.

 

[egruberman]

-Peptides often clump into aggregates.

-Aggregates can induce side effects, and immunity to the peptide.

-The correct filter easily removes the largest aggregates that cause the most problems.

The critics: "Shut up, shut up! This probably never happens and if it does it's so rare it doesn't matter and it's stupid to bring it up!"

Then why do you care about dimer in HGH?

Dimer is aggregation.

If aggregation doesn't matter, why do you demand testing for dimer in HGH?

Dimer is aggregation? I mean, semantically, maybe, but a dimeric protein has a very well defined structure composed of two monomeric molecules. An aggregated protein is a disordered structure of multiple protein molecules.

If one wanted to filter dimeric HGH for example, you'd need a 5nm filter, which doesn't exist. All but the smallest protein aggregates on the other hand could be filtered with a 100nm filter, that is, the .1µm that you wrote that you used.

I'm putting aside the topic of MWCO filtration because I doubt any of us are going to be spinning up our reconstituted peptides in a centrifuge.

 

[Ghoul]

Wow thx for such a well laid out, educational answer! Much appreciated. Also there was a typo in my original post, should have read “grey info” not “ great info”. I’ve only found grey info to date, nothing concrete.

I dose 15mg Tirz on Mondays from either a 30mg or 40mg QSC vial. So I just need the Tirz to be effective for 3 weeks.

However, I also dose 1mg Sema on Thursdays to keep effect going. From a 10mg vial, that means I need the vial to last 10 weeks after being mixed. I don’t know if this is reasonable to expect.

You're fine with the Tirz, and almost certainly with the Sema. I'm using QSC Tirz 30mg on a similar protocol without issue. I've been stockpiling 15mg pens and curious if the pens will be stronger or weaker by comparison.

The unfortunate reality is there are so many variables out of our control, even from batch to batch, there's no way to tell how stable the peptides are. The actual volume of peptide is a few grains of sand, the rest is excipients, a "filler" recipe intended to do a number of things. This plays a major role in the performance of the final product. Preservative, something to promote easy dissolving, somehow to adjust the PH of the water are all common elements.

Years of speculation have gone into why pharma growth hormone seemed to be more effective than UGL, with fewer sides, despite being the same peptide. I'm now convinced it's primarily the excipient recipe and packaging, which is where pharma expertise and resources beat Chinese UGL hands down. However, they do seem to be catching up (or just stealing the excipient formulas).

Clearly there's a growing attention to quality in China towards factors beyond just making the right molecule. Look at the varieties of reconstitution solution QSC's now testing.

 

[egruberman]

I'm now convinced it's primarily the excipient recipe

Nah. Plenty of pharma HGH uses mannitol as a bulking agent and a couple of buffering agents. Tracy confirmed QSC GH uses mannitol and I have no doubt they use similar buffering agents.

 

[WindonSea]

You're fine with the Tirz, and almost certainly with the Sema. I'm using QSC Tirz 30mg on a similar protocol without issue. I've been stockpiling 15mg pens and curious if the pens will be stronger or weaker by comparison.

The unfortunate reality is there are so many variables out of our control, even from batch to batch, there's no way to tell how stable the peptides are. The actual volume of peptide is a few grains of sand, the rest is excipients, a "filler" recipe intended to do a number of things. This plays a major role in the performance of the final product. Preservative, something to promote easy dissolving, somehow to adjust the PH of the water are all common elements.

Years of speculation have gone into why pharma growth hormone seemed to be more effective than UGL, with fewer sides, despite being the same peptide. I'm now convinced it's primarily the excipient recipe and packaging, which is where pharma expertise and resources beat Chinese UGL hands down. However, they do seem to be catching up (or just stealing the excipient formulas).

Clearly there's a growing attention to quality in China towards factors beyond just making the right molecule. Look at the varieties of reconstitution solution QSC's now testing.

Awesome info, thank you so much

 

[Ghoul]

Dimer is aggregation? I mean, semantically, maybe, but a dimeric protein has a very well defined structure composed of two monomeric molecules. An aggregated protein is a disordered structure of multiple protein molecules.

If one wanted to filter dimeric HGH for example, you'd need a 5nm filter, which doesn't exist. All but the smallest protein aggregates on the other hand could be filtered with a 100nm filter, that is, the .1µm that you wrote that you used.

"Dimer is a crucial initial step of protein aggregation" *

The first couple of snowflakes in a snowball, as a crude analogy.



FYI I've left out references, all recent, for everything stated in that post, to make it digestible for a certain small group here. I'd be happy to share on request.

I was specific about "large" aggregates being filterable (in a way that's practical for us). Luckily, most of the problems aggregates can cause implicate the larger aggregates above .2um. I have the filter with the correct characteristics on the way. 40¢ each. I'm not breaking new ground here, just copying what the experts are doing.

But again. On a simple level. Why do you care about dimer in HGH?

I have a theory as to why it really matters, but I'm curious why others do.

If you reduce, or eliminate dimer in the initial product, you make it far less likely you'll have large, immune response inducing aggregates developing later on.

Here are some huge GLP aggregates. These were created by "abusing" the peptide in solution, leaving them exposed to high room temperatures for days, extreme agitation, etc to speed the process up.

These are readily filterable, and since they're not going to work as the original peptide was intended (at the least, at worst they'll cause side effects) there's no reason you'd want to inject them.

 

[bigtom343]

-Peptides often clump into aggregates.

-Aggregates can induce side effects, and immunity to the peptide.

-The correct filter easily removes the largest aggregates that cause the most problems.

The critics: "Shut up, shut up! This probably never happens and if it does it's so rare it doesn't matter and it's stupid to bring it up!"

Then why do you care about dimer in HGH?

Dimer is aggregation.

If aggregation doesn't matter, why do you demand testing for dimer in HGH?

Just Sonicate it already.

 

[egruberman]

But again. On a simple level. Why do you care about dimer in HGH?

The dimeric HGH molecule has some interesting negative effects in the literature and I'm curious whether it contributes to the anecdotal distinction between pharma and UGL or the likelihood of side effects, especially the neuropathy. Pretty sure my curiosity is going to remain unsatisfied as testing the distinction is beyond my means.

With regard to aggregated proteins, I'm specifically wondering if my friend that gets site reactions from tirzepatide would otherwise not if the solution were filtered.

 

[Ghoul]

Just Sonicate it already.

Haha

I know Jano did some experiments to "create dimer", dropping the vial, shooting water right into the peptide. Made no difference.

One thing that struck me in reading all this recent research into aggregate issues, was that they needed days to "incubate" after exposure to whatever the stress that started the aggregate formation, heat, agitation, silicon.

I haven't even gotten around to mentioning the silicone lube droplets from cheap Amazon syringes being used to reconstitute getting into the BAC water and causing significant amounts of aggregates to form.

 

[Ghoul]

The dimeric HGH molecule has some interesting negative effects in the literature and I'm curious whether it contributes to the anecdotal distinction between pharma and UGL or the likelihood of side effects, especially the neuropathy. Pretty sure my curiosity is going to remain unsatisfied as testing the distinction is beyond my means.

With regard to aggregated proteins, I'm specifically wondering if my friend that gets site reactions from tirzepatide would otherwise not if the solution were filtered.

QSCs Nov 2023 batch of Tesa was causing significant site reactions. Stinging and visible redness. This was mistaken as normal because Tesa is known to cause some pip.

After filtering with the 5um PES Supor filters I had on hand, (it must be a PES membrane for peptides ), the site reactions stopped, completely.

Maybe it was getting rid of some aggregates, or excipient sediment, unfortunately is something I can't say for sure. But it definitely stopped the pip. Night and day difference.

 

[y777]

It's impossible to answer. Pharma Semaglutide and Tirzapetide pens come in reconstituted form and have an expiration date of nearly TWO YEARS. Per the manufacturers they are also good for 30 days without refrigeration.

The ingredients only list the peptide, sterile water, benzyl alcohol, and a ph adjuster.

However, the pens are terminally sterilized with radiation to kill all bacteria within them, packaging is carefully designed to not introduce contaminants (from the stopper, for instance) that can chemically degrade the peptide or promote aggregation.

UGL peptides are far sloppier, with none of these elements as carefully controlled.

The best you can do is to only use pharma BAC water, protect it from light, keep it refrigerated, wipe the rubber stopper to prevent bacteria from being introduced into the vial, and hope the chemists who made it did a good job.

How long do you need it to last? In my experience, peptides are good for at least a month, some have been dead after two, others still good a year later.

I’ve been using QSC tirz because my ineurence
Won’t cover it but they do cover ozempic. I also have Q’s sema.

I’ve been stockpiling unused pens in the fridge figuring it will last longer than UGL un-constituted. I do the same with insulin, I am still getting my doc to rx me old dosages I had pre-GLP use.

What I’ve been doing dosage wise is using my RX ozempic plus initially 5mg tirz then 10 for
Appetite suppression (I get none w ozempic 1mg and endo won’t rx me more cuz im not obese and my a1c is fine now )

I did an experiment and bumped tirz to 15 mg
Single shot. Ditched ozempic. Phenomenal glucose and insulin control. Didn’t need any Humalog thru the day. Just Lantus. But day 4 , the half life point , it all goes to sh*t. I had to start using insulin again. So either I split up the 15 to biweekly (and lose some suppression ) or stack back some sema.

The two drugs both have pros and cons. As someone with T2D who uses slin and wears a cgm my main takeaways are:


Sema (using ozempic )
- much better at slowing gastric emptying. My glucose peaks aren’t as high as with tirz and eating mos foods won’t hit my glucose readings until almost two hours later. Only liquids hit asap
- seven day half life IIRC

Tirz (QSC tirz)
- excellent appetite suppression albeit only at highest doses. Not gradual for me at all. Either it’s suppressing or it isn’t and I’m starving
- shorter half life for me means at four day mark I lose efficacy for diabetes control and appetite

This short half life dilemma makes me think of Advil. Say you need 2 pills of 200 mg to clear a headache. Half life is only 4 hours but you get rx that says it’s supposed to last a full day. How do you deal with it ? Taking 200 every 4 hours won’t clear the headache. It might but maybe not with the drug alone. Hence either more dosage via UGL or stacking. And if you do stack do you do 15 tirz every 7 days and the. Days 4-7 you’re riding on sema only or you so 7.5 x2 plus sema to get coverage.


/// apologies for going into detail on the drugs - I am aware there’s a separate thread. Just wanted to hit up the more engaged folks who are running Q compounds.