Questions about Juicing at 18

[D-Ballin]

Guys, I agree with all of what you're saying- but i think this thread is going a little off topic. I was simply inquiring about if/why steroids exhibit different negative effects in younger users than older (25--->) ones. Purely out of curiosity. So far, like DNP, most evidence seems to be anecdotal/broscience at best. Just looking for someone to explain...
1) if/why gear usage cuases hypogonadism/other permanent effects to a greater degree in younger users
2) if the whole "estrogen/growth plate theory" issue could be solved with some tamoxifen or a non aromatizing compound
And any other issues anyone can find d some data on. I realize evidence is scarce due to the nature of gear, as well as the ethical/regulatory barriers of studying steroids in younger (16-22ish) users. But there has to be something from before the big gov't anti steroid campaign? I mean, even lsd was studied scientifically before it was scheduled. Thanks

Off topic is what we do best here. Especially on a topic without content. Don't fight it, just enjoy the ride. Ironwill will be along soon to liven things up, haha.

@Michael Scally MD @Dr JIM
Are there any pertinent studies done on increased risks to youth? I haven't found much myself.

Those two are your best bet for resources. But there's not much out there. Other than what the crazy old juice head human guinea pigs want to tell you.

 

[weekendwarrior]

I DO NOT PLAN ON USING GEAR. At least not for another 12 years. The last thing I want to do is bulk up. Thats why i dont even list seriously anymore-im working on cardio and muscle endurance. I was asking out of curiosity, becuase it bothered me that there was so much anti youth usage dogma everywhere with no hard evidence to back it.

 

[mkulltra58]

@Dr JIM

Maybe you can shed some more light on the topic. As you will see in my earlier post, I actually had just mentioned the studies done on rats right before you had mentioned it to me.

 

[Dr JIM]

I say if you have a good base of knowledge about anabolics hormones and know the possible risks starting young and potential risk later in life. Then that is your own decision.

Do I regret starting 3 years ago? no
Will I regret it later in life? probably

I wish it was that simple bc the complications of drug use and abuse, more often than not, become a problem for OTHERS to remedy.

Does anyone really believe the alcoholic or the recreational drug abusers decisions to use drugs ONLY effects the USER!

I see and live this problem EVERY DAY in the ED

Of course AAS can be used much more safely than the media will ever admit BUT the chances of an 18 year old pursuing such a lofty endeavor approach ZERO IME

AGE of use makes a huge difference in whether or not an individual will use ANY DRUG . In fact one of the reasons AAS are now scheduled substances is their abuse by those whom lacked the maturity, fund of knowledge or due diligence to use them responsibly!

 

[jaymaximus]

I always think its funny that these young folks come in and tell us to find studies for them saying they shouldnt cycle at a young age. This has to be at least the 4th or 5th time.

Why should anyone here have to prove anything to anyone? Especially a kid too lazy to do his own research.

 

[tubesox]

Just stop.

 

[Dr JIM]

@Dr JIM

Maybe you can shed some more light on the topic. As you will see in my earlier post, I actually had just mentioned the studies done on rats right before you had mentioned it to me.

I can only say we all know to be younger folk do not take the same precautions as most older folk.

It's also well established what the younger an individual is when they begin to use ANY RECREATIONAL DRUG or ALCOHOL the greater the likelihood those drugs will be abused, used chronically or irresponsibly.

To that end we are all fortunate human physiologic processes are often very forgiving with respect to how we all abuse our body from a diets loaded with fats and cholesterol to smoking.

However in many instances such chronic abuse eventually takes its toll and over a course of time complications begin to mount and manifest themselves clinically.

Perhaps the saving grace for many old time or traditional AAS users is their relatively clean lifestyle which may in some way compensate for the cumulative damage that otherwise would have occurred.

The latter is a potentially huge difference bc many younger AAS folk do not modify their diet, or exercise as means of achieving a fitful outcome.

These younger folk often see AAS as a SUBSTITUTE for hard work and dedication as a goal directed means to an ends, "Getting Fucking Huge".

Ask any younger AAS fella WHY they are considering AAS, the answers are quite revealing IME

 

[canadianiron]

I understand what your saying Jim. I am still learning, as I am only a year into Holistic Nutrition and have not even started pharmacology, Anatomy and physiology yet until March. So I do not have the knowledge like yourself if you are a physician.

I also don't condone anabolic use in young adolescents like my self, especially at the age of 18.

I personally don't drink and have not in the past 4 years or have ever used any type of recreational drugs EVER.

But what is actually worse?
Young adolescents that want to do a cycle of anabolic hormones or the use of recreational drugs like cocaine and ectasy, drinking alcohol everyday or every weekend which A LOT of young adolescents and even older adults and IMO is worse than anabolic hormones.

That being said, I think this is why a lot of people don't recommend Anabolic use in younger males not just because of the potential risks. But because they don't take it seriously, as a level of maturity or lack of knowledge and make non-intelligent decisions like Abuse or do recreational drugs/drink.

 

[Dr JIM]

That which has me even more concerned is the belief, by some within the FDA/DEA, that AAS are UNDERSCHEDULED.

That's right there are mumblings the current listing of AAS as scheduled III substances missed their mark and should have been placed on the schedule II list.

Fellas the difference bt acquiring a schedule III vs II substance is "Fucking Huge"!

Ever tried to acquire Dilaudid, MS or Oxy on the net? Damn near everything out there is absolute JUNK, bc the penalties for selling schedule II drugs are much more serious!

Hopefully "talk" is all it becomes, but when one considers AAS moved from an unscheduled to a schedule III drug overnight is worrisome, as is the recent change of Hydro from a III to a II class narcotic analgesic.

Have a few more dead, disabled teens or third party injuries in which AAS can be utilized as a scapegoat and the mumblings could morph into a roar, for "something to be done"!

Some believe teens possess the discipline to use AAS responsibly and as a result are entitled to "make up their own minds", be careful what you wish for as you just may get it!

 

[Docd187123]

But what is actually worse?
Young adolescents that want to do a cycle of anabolic hormones or the use of recreational drugs like cocaine and ectasy, drinking alcohol everyday or every weekend which A LOT of young adolescents and even older adults and IMO is worse than anabolic hormones.

That being said, I think this is why a lot of people don't recommend Anabolic use in younger males not just because of the potential risks. But because they don't take it seriously, as a level of maturity or lack of knowledge and make non-intelligent decisions like Abuse or do recreational drugs/drink.

The two options you present aren't collectively exhaustive. I mean that there's another choice you didn't mention and that's doing none of the above.

If the goal is to progress yourself, as it should be for most of us here, why ask what's worse? Why not ask what's best?

 

[canadianiron]

I think it's fair to know both. The problem is most kids that age will not listen anyhow as I am sure you already know. You tell them one thing and they do the opposite.

 

[Dr JIM]

I think this is why a lot of people don't recommend Anabolic use in younger males not just because of the potential risks. .

I don't RECOMMEND the use of AAS by anyone except as indicated for medicinal purposes.

And to that end there's really no discussion to be had excepting a risk vs cost analysis based on the WANTS (rather than NEEDS) of those involved.

Excepting perhaps the truly professional athlete or BB and NO TEEN has reached that level of competition or is even close to it.

 

[FeartheBeard]

@Dr JIM - I work in a pharmacy and haven't heard those rumblings, but I sure as heck hope that doesn't happen. We'll see less docs prescribing TRT to guys who legitimately need it and schedule II scripts are just a pain for everyone involved. You don't want to write it because of DEA audits, I have to tell patients, "Sorry, your dr. didn't write YOUR NAME/didn't sign his name/post dated this. I can't fill it." Then they come back to you all pissed off and they come back to me pissed off and then they wonder why everyone is treating them like a junkie.

Sorry OP, had to rant.

 

[Dr JIM]

^^^^
Oh yea the requirements for a schedule II are much more restrictive and exacting with few exceptions for either the Doc or the pharmacy.

It's for that reason I was quite surprised when HCD was upgraded from a schedule III to a schedule II drug a couple years ago. In fact one of the reasons many physicians, including myself, believed HCD needed to remain as a schedule III drug was the relatively high incidence of Codeine allergies in the general population.

The concern being, as Codeine has a potency similar to HCD, it seemed reasonable to expect the former would become the most viable option if the more stringent HCD classification was enacted.

Retrospectively what did transpire is also not to surprising, the number of "Codeine allergies" mysteriously declined. It seems many "Codeine allergies" were relatively common GI adverse effects noted with many narcotic analgesics, or perhaps HCD was more potent than many believed and physicians underestimated it's addictive potential.

Nonetheless now that its said and done, I'm delighted bc the number of patients presenting to the ED exclusively requesting a HCD refill has fallen precipitously.

With respect to your TRT concern, as I said at present it's just isolated rumblings that Ive heard within the halls of an academic institution. (The reason, the difficulties one must confront for research that involves a schedule II vs a III drug are enough to persuade any reasonable doc to say F…. that shit!) Anyway I suspect if such a change was made TT would remain a schedule III drug while ANY OTHER AAS would be slapped as a schedule a II drug!

Such listings are not at all uncommon and in fact are the norm in many instances, narcotic analgesics being one example.

Hey but I sure was wrong about HCD so who knows, lol

jim

 

[RodgerThat]

So I'm just gonna touch on the reason everyone is having troubles finding comprehensive studies on this subject. It is the same reason that there isn't comprehensive studies done on whether or not lifting in your youth stunts growth because you would have to use a adolescent person and modify their life to see if it's harmful to them find a doctor or scientist that's going to screw with a kids body for science you won't. I got into a discussion about the stunting growth thing as I began lifting at a young age of 12 and I'm not that tall but absolutely everyone else in my family is 6foot plus if they are male. So I attribute my height of 5'8 to lifting early? No because that's stupid I was eating enough calories to compensate for it and the only way to definitively figure out if it would stunt growth is to take identical twins have them on the exact same diet for 10+ years but one does weight training and the other doesn't. The only difference maker I could see when growing would be the lack of calories to grow but that study will never be done for the same reason that they won't take identical twins at 18 put one on AAS and keep the other off and analyze their findings 10+ years later because you shouldn't be screwing with growing human beings.

Sorry if that got a bit off topic but I think it came full circle, I'm tired so this is my sleepy brain working

 

[Dr JIM]

Now what's wrong with analyzing the findings is 18 year olds?

Heck all that would be required for conclusive evidence AAS can adversely effect a youngsters brain is;

1) multiple spinal fluid collections

2) comparative blood assays

3) urinary metabolite testing

4) general anesthesia

5) intraoperative electrical stimulation

6) several precise computer generated 3-D gyroscopic brain biopsies

7) intraoperative specimen comparisons

8) pre and post operative intellectual testing ....... never mind bc anyone willing to sign a pre-operative permit for what I just described has no intellect, but rather should be placed on the fast track for orchiectomy

 

[mkulltra58]

I don't RECOMMEND the use of AAS by anyone except as indicated for medicinal purposes.

And to that end there's really no discussion to be had excepting a risk vs cost analysis based on the WANTS (rather than NEEDS) of those involved.

Excepting perhaps the truly professional athlete or BB and NO TEEN has reached that level of competition or is even close to it.

I find it ridiculous that doctors can't prescribe steroids to men that want to change their physique but they can inject drugs into the faces of women to change their appearence, insert silicon bags in their breasts, give them drugs to stop them from getting pregnant, give them drugs to terminate pregnancy, and etc.

Just as teen deaths can be pointed at politically to change the current scheduling, so can a movement and demonstration by users can inflict change, as it has in the case of marijuana. As long as steroid use stays hidden and the truth not discussed, the stigma will remain. It seems like the last 30 years have been the Refer Madness years of steroids.

 

[Dr JIM]

It seems like the last 30 years have been the Refer Madness years of steroids.

To think what would the status of AAS be if Willie Nelson was repetitively busted over of his "personal stash" of D-Bol, or Bill Clinton admitted to using AAS but "never injected", etc, etc