Religion!

[Neodavid]

Amen bro.

Foolish and unlearned questions avoid for they do engender strife.",,,The details of our walk with God are between Him and me(You and Him),,,They called Jesus a wine bibber and a glutton,,,He did change the water into wine,,,and the head of the feast said that they saved the good wine until then,,,Meaning He made some very good wine,,,Now I see that as a teaching of how the water of the Word which cleans us up turns into wine when we are clean and can see the Word clearly,,,Now when we love our neighbor as Ourself,,,Well we know our weaknesses and that the only good in us comes from Him,,,So when our neighbor is trapped by his own world, even after he is saved, then we must forgive him,,,Love covers a multitude of sins,,,Our world is comprised of our description of it,,,These frames are our words,,,When we receive the engrafted word we begin to die out to our worldview and start to see through God's eyes,,,Yes at the beginning its "through a glass darkly",,,but we are to grow up into the head in all things,,,Then we shall see face to face,,,and seeing clearly we are changed into that image,,,The thing observed is changed by the observer,,,On this journey Mercy is tatamount to survival,,,To not forgive is to condemn,,,To condemn is to judge one worthy of death,,,Jesus said he is come that we might have life and to have it more abundantly,,,He came not to condemn the world but that the world might be saved by him,,,Just love and all will be well,,,VDC

 

[Neodavid]

I couldn't agree more, except to qualify the 'ABC' part by saying this will do nothing for you, unless your heart, and real repentence is inside.

I just mean you have to be serious about it, enter into a living relationship with Christ, not just say the right words.

No doubt you assumed this as well, but plenty of people I've met say silly things like "Yeah, I tried that, it doesn't work". But it's because they didn't really mean if from their hearts, they never really met Christ and were changed by him.

I prefer people to be lost, before they try to be saved. If a person really see's sin and how horrible selfishness is, if they understand how this has hurt them and everyone in their lives, when it hits their hearts after a revelation from God, then they 'get and stay saved'.

Otherwise, half meaning people, selfishly wanting to simply cover their butts, well, those people are the ones he says, "Depart from me, I never knew you".

As AM said.. the bible is the key. Most people who are the quickest to speak negativly of the bible are usually the last people to ever read it. Finding a church and participating in it is one thing.. but finding salvation and the lord is something else altogether.

Before you start looking at a doctrine and before you decide to either move toward or away from a particular Christian organization you need to open up the bible.. In my oppinion if a person wants to find God, or a person wants to form an educated oppinion about Christ, Then that person should open the New Testament of the Holy Bible. (NIV or New King James are both very easy to understand) Open up the new Testament And read the first two books. Mathew and Mark. These deal wholy with the life of Christ and his teachings. And IMO these are two of the greatest books in the bible.

People believe that becoming saved is a difficult task, or that they are not good enough. Or that they don't have what it takes. These things are completely untrue! First off, God would have none of us fall. He constantly puts things in our lives that will lead us to him.. (it could be you reading this thread) This is just one of the many ways that he tries to approach us. Becoming born again is very easy. In fact, it's as easy as ABC.

A Admit that you are a sinner and that you need God.
B Believe that Christ Died on the cross and rose from the dead Three days later.
C Confess him as your savior and confess to him your sins and ask for his forgiveness.

That is it... It's that simple. The first step toward Salvation can be as simple as a prayer. I will even post a prayer that you can read. Just read the words below and believe them with your heart.

“Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.”


Don't get mired in Doctrine or Churches before you even have Christ in your life. God will lead you where he wants you to go. The bible says that He who is in you, is stronger than he who is in the world. Remember, it's as simple as A B C.

I will pray with anyone who would ask me... And I am open to any questions that you may have. I may not be able to answer all of them, but I promise you that I will try. And I will certainly try and point you in the right direction.

 

[AnimalMass]

AnimalMass,

I'm not sure you understand, seems like you think I don't believe in God or the Bible. Quite the contrary!

I believe every word in the bible. It's the plenary verbally inspired word of God. I believe in Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. My favorite book is John, because it so plainly presents Christ as God in the flesh.

What I am saying is the church has lost it's way and has followed legalism rather than a relationship with Christ. They have stopped following the Spirit in a personal relationship, intimate, and moment by moment.

I'm all for the true believers, I'm all for God's word, I'm all for Salvation through Christ. It's why I'm still alive, it's my reason for getting up in the morning. My life is full of love and grace and glory.

But the teachings in the church are poisoned. Not scripture, Animal, but the way the church teaches it.

Garyzilla condemned me for believing God told me to get drunk. I asked him to prove it was wrong, FROM SCRIPTURE. He could not. So he used church teaching, and rather bad application to try...

I then went off on a nut explaining why the church is all messed up, because they choose legalism over love. See the book of Galations. Read it really thoroughly... "You who were FREE, WHY have you fallen back under the law????" That's Paul the apostle, brother, Paul... not me.

My good bro could not find anywhere getting drunk was a sin. HE could only find things like excess, gluttonly, etc. My argument was I got drunk once because God told me to, not that I was for alcoholism.

In fact I didn't drink anything for 40 years, and that was God's point, to get me to be free from that frear. My parents had been alcoholics, so I was afraid I had that weakness. I don't. But that was the only way to show me, to set me free. God's in the setting free business.

God is love, but people use the bible to bash and judge.

THAT is the opposite of truth, the opposite of Christ, but it IS the natural result of the church's teachings. They eat knowledge, when God is interested in their hearts. "My people die for lack of understanding", doesn't mean they don't KNOW things, it's that they don't UNDERSTAND that God is all about love, not judgment.

I appreciate the advice to read John, but please understand I know and love it already. I can read it in Koine greek if you like, I went and got a degree in theology 22 years ago.

I'm all for the bible bro, just against the poison in the church that keeps people from God, from love, and makes them judge others.

For the record, I met Christ when I was 18. I fell on the floor when I saw my great sin of not loving God, and my neighbor as myself. He came to me and set me free, forgave me, and changed my heart and life.

So there ya go bro, hope that clears this up.

Neo,

I appreciate the fact that you believe that the Word or God is totally infallible. If that is the case, please explain these verses to me...

Romans 13:1

"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."

...God, the supreme Sovereign, has ordained that there should be governeming authorities. Every believer is to be subject to these various authorities, even if these authorities are evil. When Paul wrote this, he was under the control of Nero, who was an evil emporer in Rome, and who persecuted Christians. Even so, Paul exhorted the Roman believers to submit to Nero's authority because it was ordained by God himself.


Romans 13:2

"Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves."

...Judgements does not necessarily mean eternal punishment. God may judge people through the human authorities he appoints.


Romans 13:3-4

"For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil."

...The sword is an instrument of death. Government has the right, under certain circumstances, to impose capital punishment as well as to wage war. In Paul's day, capital punishment was decapitation with a sword, hence the reference.


Romans 13:5-7

"Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor."

..."for conscience sake:" Believers must obey government not only because it is their civic duty but because it is their duty before God.


1 Peter 2:13-17

"Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme, or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men - as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king."

...Peter forcefully commands Christians to submit voluntarily to governing authorities. He does not make submission a matter of personal conviction or choice. He decrees that it is an obligation to all Christians "To every ordinance of man," Peters suggests that submission of Christians is not solely related to civil authorities, but all kinds of riles that Christians encounter.



Some further thoughts on drugs in my life as a Christian:


Matthew 23:27-28

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."


James 3:13

"Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there."



*************

The difference between judging another Christian, and holding him or her accountable:


Ecclesiastes 4:9-10

"Two are better than one, Because they have a good reward for their labor. For if they fall, one will lift up his companion. But woe to him who is alone when he falls, For he has no one to help him up."

Judging: When your brother falls, you rub his face in the very dirt he landed on.

I was not judged; someone lead by example and held me accountable for my actions...called me out. He called me a hypocrite, and a hypocrite I was. That's what Christians do for one another. Some may lash out and call it "passing judgement," but they are really just hurt because the words are true.

"Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20)

For fear of being called judgemental or self-righteous, this command is often disregarded. A friend that will hold you accountable, and/or avoid giving you cause for sin, is a BLESSING!

*************

"All who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured, knowing from whom you have learned..." (2 Timothy 3:10)


Neo, I cannot believe that God "told you" to get drunk and smoke weed when it is so obviously against everything else he commands in the Bible. The Bible specifically tells us to avoid drunkeness, because of the way it alters the mind (which is the same thing that weed does). Weed is against the law. How can you deny these verses and say that God took back what he said in his word to "command you" to smoke weed?

I do believe in large part that churches have put away the Bible to follow legalism and it makes me sick. I'm not trying to be legalistic here - I'm just following exactly what the Bible says.

Are we under the law (Old Testament Jewish Law) anymore? Absolutely not! But Jesus said he came not to destroy that law, but to complete it. If you read the very words of Jesus, he calls us into a deeper commitment than the law ever required. ie. - instead of not having adulterous sex with someone as was commanded in the law, Jesus told us not to even think impure thoughts. Just because he came and died on the cross, doesn't mean the principles of the laws don't stand. They do. Even moreso than they did when people had to follow the law.

If you don't think Jesus is telling us to obey the laws of this land I sure would like to know what you think about it?

 

[garyzilla]

Neo,

I appreciate the fact that you believe that the Word or God is totally infallible. If that is the case, please explain these verses to me...

Romans 13:1

"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."

...God, the supreme Sovereign, has ordained that there should be governeming authorities. Every believer is to be subject to these various authorities, even if these authorities are evil. When Paul wrote this, he was under the control of Nero, who was an evil emporer in Rome, and who persecuted Christians. Even so, Paul exhorted the Roman believers to submit to Nero's authority because it was ordained by God himself.


Romans 13:2

"Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves."

...Judgements does not necessarily mean eternal punishment. God may judge people through the human authorities he appoints.


Romans 13:3-4

"For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil."

...The sword is an instrument of death. Government has the right, under certain circumstances, to impose capital punishment as well as to wage war. In Paul's day, capital punishment was decapitation with a sword, hence the reference.


Romans 13:5-7

"Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor."

..."for conscience sake:" Believers must obey government not only because it is their civic duty but because it is their duty before God.


1 Peter 2:13-17

"Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme, or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men - as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king."

...Peter forcefully commands Christians to submit voluntarily to governing authorities. He does not make submission a matter of personal conviction or choice. He decrees that it is an obligation to all Christians "To every ordinance of man," Peters suggests that submission of Christians is not solely related to civil authorities, but all kinds of riles that Christians encounter.



Some further thoughts on drugs in my life as a Christian:


Matthew 23:27-28

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."


James 3:13

"Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there."



*************

The difference between judging another Christian, and holding him or her accountable:


Ecclesiastes 4:9-10

"Two are better than one, Because they have a good reward for their labor. For if they fall, one will lift up his companion. But woe to him who is alone when he falls, For he has no one to help him up."

Judging: When your brother falls, you rub his face in the very dirt he landed on.

I was not judged; someone lead by example and held me accountable for my actions...called me out. He called me a hypocrite, and a hypocrite I was. That's what Christians do for one another. Some may lash out and call it "passing judgement," but they are really just hurt because the words are true.

"Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20)

For fear of being called judgemental or self-righteous, this command is often disregarded. A friend that will hold you accountable, and/or avoid giving you cause for sin, is a BLESSING!

*************

"All who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured, knowing from whom you have learned..." (2 Timothy 3:10)


Neo, I cannot believe that God "told you" to get drunk and smoke weed when it is so obviously against everything else he commands in the Bible. The Bible specifically tells us to avoid drunkeness, because of the way it alters the mind (which is the same thing that weed does). Weed is against the law. How can you deny these verses and say that God took back what he said in his word to "command you" to smoke weed?

I do believe in large part that churches have put away the Bible the follow legalism and it makes me sick. I'm not trying to be lagalistic here - I'm just following exactly what the Bible says.

Are we under the law (Old Testament Jewish Law) anymore? Absolutely not! But Jesus said he came not to destroy that law, but to complete it. If you read the very words of Jesus, he calls us into a deeper commitment than the law ever required. ie. - instead of not having adulterous sex with someone as was commanded in the law, Jesus told us not to even think impure thoughts. Just because he came and died on the cross, doesn't mean the principles of the laws don't stand. They do. Even moreso than they did when people had to follow the law.

If you don't think Jesus is telling us to obey the laws of this land I sure would like to know what you think about it?

This is what i was tring to tell you Neodavid. I might have not done a good job of telling you my thoughts, but AM did a great job!

 

[Neodavid]

AnimalMass, wow you write fast... (grin)

you:
I appreciate the fact that you believe that the Word or God is totally infallible. If that is the case, please explain these verses to me...

me:
Will do, but broken up into parts. I find people get confused by my long posts.

you:
Neo, I cannot believe that God "told you" to get drunk and smoke weed when it is so obviously against everything else he commands in the Bible. The Bible specifically tells us to avoid drunkeness, because of the way it alters the mind (which is the same thing that weed does).


me:
It isn't against everything else in the bible, I'll show you that as I go over each of the verses. Actually though, it's a foundational lie that makes everything else that follows it wrong, so I won't have to explain each verse independantly. But I will, if you desire.

For instance, on avoiding drunkenness...

What IS drunkenness?

It's basically alcoholism. Being out of control. Letting drink control your life. NEEDING a drink...

Ephesians six is a great study, "Be not drunk with wine WHEREIN IS EXCESS, but be FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT".

This is so beautiful... so simple.

Let me paraphrase the meaning... Don't be drunken, being controlled, filled, and influenced by wine... but instead by filled, controlled, and influenced by the Holy Spirit.

Most people can't comprehend this, because they have never experienced being filled by the Spirit, and having a deep intimate love making session with God. Most people don't know this is how you can live and be filled with joy overflowing. They've had a taste, but never been so filled that everything in their lives is affected.

Like being drunk, but drunk on God's love, being in love, walking in unearthly power and joy.


It IS wrong to be an alcoholic, for then you are not controlled by the Spirit, but controlled by alcohol. THEN it is a horrible destructive evil.

Lest you misunderstand, let me explain to you that my fiance died of alcoholism, my parents were alcoholics, and I had a horrible experience with it. I did not take a drink for 40 years, my friend.

To get rid of many fears and pains, God with great love, told me to go to the store and buy alcohol, and get drunk. Let me tell you, this was a challenge for me! If you never had anyone die twitching and spasming in your arms because they OD'd on alcohol, you wouldn't have a clue what I mean.

So I obeyed.

And now all of my fears are gone. I see plainly and clearly, that in Christ I have overcome all things. There is no danger of alcoholism, I don't even like the stuff. I only drink when God tells me too. I have to get used to the taste, usually drinking rather quickly. Haven't developed a taste for it.


But the church, teaches lies, that say getting drunk is a sin.

It's not getting drunk that is the sin, it is in being controlled by anything but God and God's love, through his Spirit, in a deep intimate love affair.

Right and wrong are based on LOVE AND MOTIVATION, not as the church teaches, on obeying the law.

The law is fulfilled in Christ. Now we live by relationship.

If you want, I will answer each of your other points, just don't want to make this too long.

Next I'll hit that question about obeying the laws of the land...

 

[Neodavid]

Oh, no, you did fine. I disagree with AnimalMass too is all.

This is what i was tring to tell you Neodavid. I might have not done a good job of telling you my thoughts, but AM did a great job!

 

[garyzilla]

Oh, no, you did fine. I disagree with AnimalMass too is all.

I want you to reply to trhe rest of Am questions! The weed, law of the land, all the verses ect...

 

[Neodavid]

Patience friend, I said I would, and I'm a man of my word.

Interestingly though, I've already explained this to you in detail. I really do wish you would honestly read my posts rather than just get bent and reply before you understood the answer. Then you could formulate a reply that I could respond to, rather than making me repeat myself.

Read this next one, seriously read and comprehend it... and then come BACK with something rather than repeating yourself, and then we can have fun and get somewhere.

I want you to reply to trhe rest of Am questions! The weed, law of the land, all the verses ect...

 

[garyzilla]

Patience friend, I said I would, and I'm a man of my word.

Interestingly though, I've already explained this to you in detail. I really do wish you would honestly read my posts rather than just get bent and reply before you understood the answer. Then you could formulate a reply that I could respond to, rather than making me repeat myself.

Read this next one, seriously read and comprehend it... and then come BACK with something rather than repeating yourself, and then we can have fun and get somewhere.

No. You wanted many verses to back up what I and in this case AM believe. There they are. I am just wondering how you are going respond when the verses are right there.

 

[Bob Smith]

AnimalMass, outstanding post! Glad to see you contributing more these days.

 

[Neodavid]

Regarding the laws of the land...

I'll not repeat the verses (see below), we all know God DEFINITELY DEFINITELY DEFINITELY tells us to obey the laws of the land. There is NO question about it.

As a precursor though, let me suggest that I am more rightious than you all here, for my bet is, you all speed. Bet you go over by 5 on a regular basis, bet you don't pay attention and go a little fast when in a hurry... don'tcha... bet you don't always come to a complete stop, or signal every time you should (lane changes, etc.)

I know this because I've watched my church members a thousand times. I know this because it's just natural, the way it is, we don't like to pay attention to such tiny details.

1 mile an hour over, is a sin, because to speed is to break the law. You CAN get a ticket for one mile over, I know, because when I was young it happened to me. I know because the police told me.

But there are excuses we have for that one, aren't there... ones everyone has and accepts...

This is tongue in cheek, a post for fun, to illustrate the difference between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law.

This is the law of the land, so animalmass, garyzilla, phreezer, I expect you all to NEVER speed, for that is a sin, and for that sin Christ died, and you are putting nails into him on the cross by disobeyong his clear command to obey ALL of the laws of the land.

I hope you all realize that I'm not serious, just pointing out a fact that is the root of the problem. It's called phariseeism.

Assuming no one really IS a pharisee, let me explain that the pharisee's were like the church is today, keeping all the rules and judging anyone who doesn't keep the rules.

We are even like the pharisee's in that we look at people outside the church, as heathen (gentiles as they called them), who we must love despite their sin. But our own, we judge them by the letter of the law.

Pharisee's brought the woman caught in adultery to Christ, saying "The law says we must kill her, what say YOU". They were trying to trick him, because they knew the law demanded it, and Christ always talked about love and forgiveness.

Christ said, "Let he that is without sin, cast the first stone". Oops... everyone left, ashamed.

Same thing is happening today. The church kicks out people for having walked into a bar, or for smoking ciggerettes (you name it, some churches will kick out women for wearing makeup).

So in this morass of idiocy, where is the common sense, why do so many men disagree what the bible means about so many things?

It's because they don't understand the basis for right and wrong.

Right and wrong are not legal issues. Right and wrong is a HEART issue.

If your heart is in the right place, you WANT to do the right thing. DUH!!!! If you make a mistake, it's a mistake, it does not hurt God or your relationship to him.

What hurts God, or even your wife, or friend, is when YOUR HEART isn't right.


Okay, that was a long precursor. I'll go to another post to get to the laws of the land thing. I'm not going where you think I'm going.

Neo,

I appreciate the fact that you believe that the Word or God is totally infallible. If that is the case, please explain these verses to me...

Romans 13:1

"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."

...God, the supreme Sovereign, has ordained that there should be governeming authorities. Every believer is to be subject to these various authorities, even if these authorities are evil. When Paul wrote this, he was under the control of Nero, who was an evil emporer in Rome, and who persecuted Christians. Even so, Paul exhorted the Roman believers to submit to Nero's authority because it was ordained by God himself.


Romans 13:2

"Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves."

...Judgements does not necessarily mean eternal punishment. God may judge people through the human authorities he appoints.


Romans 13:3-4

"For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil."

...The sword is an instrument of death. Government has the right, under certain circumstances, to impose capital punishment as well as to wage war. In Paul's day, capital punishment was decapitation with a sword, hence the reference.


Romans 13:5-7

"Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor."

..."for conscience sake:" Believers must obey government not only because it is their civic duty but because it is their duty before God.


1 Peter 2:13-17

"Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme, or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men - as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king."

...Peter forcefully commands Christians to submit voluntarily to governing authorities. He does not make submission a matter of personal conviction or choice. He decrees that it is an obligation to all Christians "To every ordinance of man," Peters suggests that submission of Christians is not solely related to civil authorities, but all kinds of riles that Christians encounter.



Some further thoughts on drugs in my life as a Christian:


Matthew 23:27-28

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."


James 3:13

"Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there."



*************

The difference between judging another Christian, and holding him or her accountable:


Ecclesiastes 4:9-10

"Two are better than one, Because they have a good reward for their labor. For if they fall, one will lift up his companion. But woe to him who is alone when he falls, For he has no one to help him up."

Judging: When your brother falls, you rub his face in the very dirt he landed on.

I was not judged; someone lead by example and held me accountable for my actions...called me out. He called me a hypocrite, and a hypocrite I was. That's what Christians do for one another. Some may lash out and call it "passing judgement," but they are really just hurt because the words are true.

"Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20)

For fear of being called judgemental or self-righteous, this command is often disregarded. A friend that will hold you accountable, and/or avoid giving you cause for sin, is a BLESSING!

*************

"All who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured, knowing from whom you have learned..." (2 Timothy 3:10)


Neo, I cannot believe that God "told you" to get drunk and smoke weed when it is so obviously against everything else he commands in the Bible. The Bible specifically tells us to avoid drunkeness, because of the way it alters the mind (which is the same thing that weed does). Weed is against the law. How can you deny these verses and say that God took back what he said in his word to "command you" to smoke weed?

I do believe in large part that churches have put away the Bible to follow legalism and it makes me sick. I'm not trying to be legalistic here - I'm just following exactly what the Bible says.

Are we under the law (Old Testament Jewish Law) anymore? Absolutely not! But Jesus said he came not to destroy that law, but to complete it. If you read the very words of Jesus, he calls us into a deeper commitment than the law ever required. ie. - instead of not having adulterous sex with someone as was commanded in the law, Jesus told us not to even think impure thoughts. Just because he came and died on the cross, doesn't mean the principles of the laws don't stand. They do. Even moreso than they did when people had to follow the law.

If you don't think Jesus is telling us to obey the laws of this land I sure would like to know what you think about it?

 

[Rod]

AnimalMass, outstanding post! Glad to see you contributing more these days.

I don't remember having ever read a post by AnimalMass; I must say that I'm impressed. It is good to see that there is another intelligent Christian on the board.

 

[garyzilla]

Regarding the laws of the land...

I'll not repeat the verses (see below), we all know God DEFINITELY DEFINITELY DEFINITELY tells us to obey the laws of the land. There is NO question about it.

As a precursor though, let me suggest that I am more rightious than you all here, for my bet is, you all speed. Bet you go over by 5 on a regular basis, bet you don't pay attention and go a little fast when in a hurry... don'tcha... bet you don't always come to a complete stop, or signal every time you should (lane changes, etc.)

I know this because I've watched my church members a thousand times. I know this because it's just natural, the way it is, we don't like to pay attention to such tiny details.

1 mile an hour over, is a sin, because to speed is to break the law. You CAN get a ticket for one mile over, I know, because when I was young it happened to me. I know because the police told me.

But there are excuses we have for that one, aren't there... ones everyone has and accepts...

This is tongue in cheek, a post for fun, to illustrate the difference between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law.

This is the law of the land, so animalmass, garyzilla, phreezer, I expect you all to NEVER speed, for that is a sin, and for that sin Christ died, and you are putting nails into him on the cross by disobeyong his clear command to obey ALL of the laws of the land.

I hope you all realize that I'm not serious, just pointing out a fact that is the root of the problem. It's called phariseeism.

Assuming no one really IS a pharisee, let me explain that the pharisee's were like the church is today, keeping all the rules and judging anyone who doesn't keep the rules.

We are even like the pharisee's in that we look at people outside the church, as heathen (gentiles as they called them), who we must love despite their sin. But our own, we judge them by the letter of the law.

Pharisee's brought the woman caught in adultery to Christ, saying "The law says we must kill her, what say YOU". They were trying to trick him, because they knew the law demanded it, and Christ always talked about love and forgiveness.

Christ said, "Let he that is without sin, cast the first stone". Oops... everyone left, ashamed.

Same thing is happening today. The church kicks out people for having walked into a bar, or for smoking ciggerettes (you name it, some churches will kick out women for wearing makeup).

So in this morass of idiocy, where is the common sense, why do so many men disagree what the bible means about so many things?

It's because they don't understand the basis for right and wrong.

Right and wrong are not legal issues. Right and wrong is a HEART issue.

If your heart is in the right place, you WANT to do the right thing. DUH!!!! If you make a mistake, it's a mistake, it does not hurt God or your relationship to him.

What hurts God, or even your wife, or friend, is when YOUR HEART isn't right.


Okay, that was a long precursor. I'll go to another post to get to the laws of the land thing. I'm not going where you think I'm going.

The big differance is Neodavid, if I speed which is a sin for breaking the law, I would never claim that God told me to speed. You are saying God told you to smoke weed, and get drunk! Big differance!

 

[Neodavid]

Sure, but my point is an underlying principle supersedes man's law, i.e., I told you specifically that GOD told me to do that, so I did. God often tells men to break the law of man, and I listed many cases for you.

See, you don't read dude... or can't remember... something weird anyway.

This question is simple. As scripture says, we aught to obey God over man. God's word supersedes man's law.


So the REAL question is, WOULD God, tell someoone to do something illegal in man's world? Yep, and I even listed many examples from scripture for you to prove the point.

THEN, the question is, DID God tell me to do this... so I explained my circumstances, and thought it was pretty clear that getting drunk after 40 years of fear, was good for me, set me free. I no longer fear.

Therefore, the ends justify the means beautifully. Love is served, no one is hurt, and I am free. God is good.

The funny part to me, is that people then JUDGE me for being set free of my fears, saying God would never do this...

So I ask why. And no one can tell me, except quote verses against alcoholism.

I'm against alcoholism too... so, go figure. Are people honestly this stupid? What is the underlying thing that makes them repeat themselves over and over again?

It's fear.

And fear brought on by the church, which teaches law and rules over love and relationship.

Now give me some time so I can respond to the weed thing. (grin)

No. You wanted many verses to back up what I and in this case AM believe. There they are. I am just wondering how you are going respond when the verses are right there.

 

[Neodavid]

That was another, slightly off topic post on the lack of logic, and the hypocrisy in phariseeism, and how it relates to every day life.

It was not may answer to the question.

What difference does it make, my man, you don't read my posts anyway. You respond to this, despite the fact that in the post I specifically said it was off topic, and not my answer.

I mean no offense, but your like talking to a child. Kind of frustrating... but I guess it is teaching me patience... (grin) Never pray for patience, you might get the answer.

The big differance is Neodavid, if I speed which is a sin for breaking the law, I would never claim that God told me to speed. You are saying God told you to smoke weed, and get drunk! Big differance!

 

[Neodavid]

Edit... your a different guy than I thought. Confused you with Big Rob, sorry!

I don't remember having ever read a post by AnimalMass; I must say that I'm impressed. It is good to see that there is another intelligent Christian on the board.

 

[Bob Smith]

I don't remember having ever read a post by AnimalMass; I must say that I'm impressed. It is good to see that there is another intelligent Christian on the board.

Dude, hes one of our Mods, in case you werent joking. Hes been around for years.

As for the other guys, learn to cut and paste once in a while. Nothings worse than scrolling through a 1000 word post and ending up missing the reply to it. Theres a neat little button that can make that happen..."Go Advanced."

 

[garyzilla]

That was another, slightly off topic post on the lack of logic, and the hypocrisy in phariseeism, and how it relates to every day life.

It was not may answer to the question.

What difference does it make, my man, you don't read my posts anyway. You respond to this, despite the fact that in the post I specifically said it was off topic, and not my answer.

I mean no offense, but your like talking to a child. Kind of frustrating... but I guess it is teaching me patience... (grin) Never pray for patience, you might get the answer.

This is getting old. I read your post. You said that speeding is breaking they law right? You said God told you get drunk to free you from fear right? I do not think God would tell you to get drunk. I believe getting drunk is a sin that the Bible clearly teaches, which you do not. If I speed then then I am sinning right? I would use the excuse that God told me to speed, which your excuse for getting drunk is that God told you to. Your a smart man Neodavid why do you act so dumb? Is it frustrating, yes it is. You either do not bother with the verses that are black and white in front you with an explaination, but you choose either to expline them away or use other verse out of context. I guess you want to believe what you want no matter what the Bible says. I guess the verse "Proclaiming to be wise, they have become fools" applies to you? Lets be honest no matter how many posts you post your not going to convice me that God told you to get drunk, or smoke weed. I am not not going to convice you either, Do you really want to keep going back and forth? I think you wrong deadly wrong, and what scares me is that some one struggling with weed ot ect.. is going to read the post and think God is telling them it is okay to smoke weed, and then something happens to them. You are a false prophet and will be judged greatly for using the Bible to twist it for your own needs. Call me what you want, think badly of me. I praying for you Neodavid I really am, that you get help and that your eyes become open. Because it really pains me to say this, but I do not think your saved!

 

[Bob Smith]

Gary, please, for your own sanity, just let it go. You already know what his response is going to be, so why waste your time with it?

 

[Rod]

Dude, hes one of our Mods, in case you werent joking. Hes been around for years

I know he is a mod and been around for longer than I have. I just don't ever recall reading one of his posts.