SARM's + Primo thoughts

[CPT]

This is a common misconception. You're not the first and you're certainly not the last one to have this misguided opinion.

First, rat, or any other rodent or small animal dosages, DO NOT linearly translate to human dosages.

This is how you translate rodent to human dosages:


View: https://www.reddit.com/r/NicotinamideRiboside/comments/4jf3gz/converting_mouse_dosages_to_human_equivalent/


Secondly, we've discussed this here on meso plenty of times. You can view one of our discussions here:

Longest safe time on cardarine / gw501516

I've been taking cardarine/gw501516 at 10mg for 8 weeks. I find it gives good endurance boost and think of continuing. Is it safe to be on it for long periods? How long have you run it?

thinksteroids.com

Type put it very eloquently in that thread so there is no need for me to re-explain or add anything of more value to the discussion, so I'll just quote his reply:



Cardarine is cancerogenic, there really is no discussion here. Will you get cancer from it? Or will you get cancer somewhere down the line, from what you planted with cardarine use way back in the day? Not a question I'd want to empirically have answered on my self and I wouldn't recommend it to others either. There are plenty of safer ways to loose body fat, no need to experiment with some experimental, dubious compounds.

Thanks for providing this, and you’ve brought some threads to my attention that I wasn’t aware of. This doesn’t however directly address the proclivity for tumour development that rodents have in comparison to humans

Secondly the point was raised regarding accelerated tumour growth but that’s not carcinogenic otherwise GH/MK677 etc would also be carcinogenic. Rather they can accelerate growth in pre existing tumours

 

[hallomonde]

What's even the point of running SARMs when you want to run past a gram of gear? If you can't grown in a gram of gear, it's time to rethink everything.

 

[Hesoprimaltho]

Cardarine is cancerogenic, there really is no discussion here. Will you get cancer from it? Or will you get cancer somewhere down the line, from what you planted with cardarine use way back in the day? Not a question I'd want to empirically have answered on my self and I wouldn't recommend it to others either. There are plenty of safer ways to loose body fat, no need to experiment with some experimental, dubious compounds.

Quote within quote from Type-IIx,
"Anyhow, rodent carcinogenicity assays are not intended for assessing dose/response in man; instead, they are used to screen for potentially dangerous (carcinogenic) drugs. Since cardarine is profoundly carcinogenic it was not pursued to market."
Preeeeecisely, dose of agonist is irrelevant and its more about the "result of the result" from its effect, period. Up regulating beta/delta PPAR results in inhibition of PTEN expression, kind of like a teeter-totter, one goes up the other goes down as they are inversely correlated, and PTEN is a gene that specifically and only does one thing: control cell growth and death. Cancer is just deviation from standard/traditional cell apoptosis, where mutated/damaged cells proliferate instead of die as they should... I mean obviously its substantially more, but meh Im a meathead on the internet.


here here, that thought process is precisely why I ceased taking it after only a few doses despite the very obvious benefits I received, would be unfair to my children to deprive them a father later in life just because I have body dysmorphia and freak out over 12%bf, and its not like the female would leave me even at 20% or likely more, either... People should really re-evaluate why they do these things, and understand everything is a potential trade off, but for what? Being strong AF is rad, but means nothing if you die relatively young like Piana. Aesthetics are great, but tbh I've found most of us are narcissists and do it less for our partners (or to attract one) and more for ourselves. Extending and maximizing life really is the only acceptable reason for this, and I hate seeing so many just rampantly throw caution to the wind. People tend to believe whatever falls in line with what they WANT, not whats best for them, so its understandable how these types of "bro science" theories develop and spread, gah...now I'm ranting.

This doesn’t however directly address the proclivity for tumour development that rodents have in comparison to humans

Bruh, read that last sentence that I just ranted to Jin.. Any "proclivity" should be irrelevant my guy. If mice had such a crazy chance above and beyond humans to develop cancer in any standard environment then I'm quite sure other animals would be used as controls, because it would too heavily affect the research.

Secondly the point was raised regarding accelerated tumour growth but that’s not carcinogenic otherwise GH/MK677 etc would also be carcinogenic. Rather they can accelerate growth in pre existing tumours

See above, messing with genes that are specifically responsible for cell growth absolutely is "carcinogenic" because if it mutates and grows rampantly due to that manipulation that is in fact a direct correlation... Im absolutely lost with what you're saying regarding GH/MK here though, as they're completely different mechanisms for action existing in a different "system" so to speak.. Sure GH regulates growth, metabolism, muscle, bone, etc... but in entirely different manners I would assume that have no direct or even indirect correlation with PPAR agonists, like you're suggesting.. Again however, Im just a meathead who is good at finding stuff on the internet and reading it... Am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

 

[Jin23]

Quote within quote from Type-IIx,
"Anyhow, rodent carcinogenicity assays are not intended for assessing dose/response in man; instead, they are used to screen for potentially dangerous (carcinogenic) drugs. Since cardarine is profoundly carcinogenic it was not pursued to market."
Preeeeecisely, dose of agonist is irrelevant and its more about the "result of the result" from its effect, period. Up regulating beta/delta PPAR results in inhibition of PTEN expression, kind of like a teeter-totter, one goes up the other goes down as they are inversely correlated, and PTEN is a gene that specifically and only does one thing: control cell growth and death. Cancer is just deviation from standard/traditional cell apoptosis, where mutated/damaged cells proliferate instead of die as they should... I mean obviously its substantially more, but meh Im a meathead on the internet.


here here, that thought process is precisely why I ceased taking it after only a few doses despite the very obvious benefits I received, would be unfair to my children to deprive them a father later in life just because I have body dysmorphia and freak out over 12%bf, and its not like the female would leave me even at 20% or likely more, either... People should really re-evaluate why they do these things, and understand everything is a potential trade off, but for what? Being strong AF is rad, but means nothing if you die relatively young like Piana. Aesthetics are great, but tbh I've found most of us are narcissists and do it less for our partners (or to attract one) and more for ourselves. Extending and maximizing life really is the only acceptable reason for this, and I hate seeing so many just rampantly throw caution to the wind. People tend to believe whatever falls in line with what they WANT, not whats best for them, so its understandable how these types of "bro science" theories develop and spread, gah...now I'm ranting.


Bruh, read that last sentence that I just ranted to Jin.. Any "proclivity" should be irrelevant my guy. If mice had such a crazy chance above and beyond humans to develop cancer in any standard environment then I'm quite sure other animals would be used as controls, because it would too heavily affect the research.

See above, messing with genes that are specifically responsible for cell growth absolutely is "carcinogenic" because if it mutates and grows rampantly due to that manipulation that is in fact a direct correlation... Im absolutely lost with what you're saying regarding GH/MK here though, as they're completely different mechanisms for action existing in a different "system" so to speak.. Sure GH regulates growth, metabolism, muscle, bone, etc... but in entirely different manners I would assume that have no direct or even indirect correlation with PPAR agonists, like you're suggesting.. Again however, Im just a meathead who is good at finding stuff on the internet and reading it... Am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

You're too humble. He wasn't "stating" anything really as he obviously doesn't have enough knowledge on the subject (no pun intended). He didn't even know that rodent dosages don't translate to humans linearly which is really level 1 ... But it was nice of you to explain it so eloquently and extensively. If we were on reddit I'd presume you just took some dex or 2fma, or some other stim.

 

[hp15]

I want to combine SARM's with Primo for limited Side effect such as Gyno, Hair loss and Accne. What are your thoughts on this cycle:
Weeks 1-12:

Testosterone Enanthate: 750mg per week (injected in divided doses twice a week)
Primobolan (Methenolone): 600mg per week (injected in divided doses twice a week)
MK-2866 (Ostarine): 25mg per day
Cardarine (GW-501516): 20mg per day

Weeks 1-14:

HCG: 500iu twice a week (injected the day before each testosterone injection)

Weeks 15-16:

HCG: 1000iu per day for 10 days (to help kickstart natural testosterone production before beginning PCT)

Weeks 17-20:

Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate): 50mg per day
Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate): 20mg per day

I wouldn’t bother with SARMs since you’re already running a good amount of injectables and want to limit side effects. Won’t SARMs also compete with test/primo at the androgen receptor? Maybe that will create a new issue for you or reduce the effects of test/primo?

I would prefer to add an oral AAS that you respond well to (or leave it as injectables only) vs. SARMs. I am not the most knowledgeable on SARMs but I never saw a real benefit outside of legality to more traditional AAS.

I’m assuming you picked test/primo because you respond well. If it ain’t broke, why “fix” it?

 

[CPT]

Quote within quote from Type-IIx,
"Anyhow, rodent carcinogenicity assays are not intended for assessing dose/response in man; instead, they are used to screen for potentially dangerous (carcinogenic) drugs. Since cardarine is profoundly carcinogenic it was not pursued to market."
Preeeeecisely, dose of agonist is irrelevant and its more about the "result of the result" from its effect, period. Up regulating beta/delta PPAR results in inhibition of PTEN expression, kind of like a teeter-totter, one goes up the other goes down as they are inversely correlated, and PTEN is a gene that specifically and only does one thing: control cell growth and death. Cancer is just deviation from standard/traditional cell apoptosis, where mutated/damaged cells proliferate instead of die as they should... I mean obviously its substantially more, but meh Im a meathead on the internet.


here here, that thought process is precisely why I ceased taking it after only a few doses despite the very obvious benefits I received, would be unfair to my children to deprive them a father later in life just because I have body dysmorphia and freak out over 12%bf, and its not like the female would leave me even at 20% or likely more, either... People should really re-evaluate why they do these things, and understand everything is a potential trade off, but for what? Being strong AF is rad, but means nothing if you die relatively young like Piana. Aesthetics are great, but tbh I've found most of us are narcissists and do it less for our partners (or to attract one) and more for ourselves. Extending and maximizing life really is the only acceptable reason for this, and I hate seeing so many just rampantly throw caution to the wind. People tend to believe whatever falls in line with what they WANT, not whats best for them, so its understandable how these types of "bro science" theories develop and spread, gah...now I'm ranting.


Bruh, read that last sentence that I just ranted to Jin.. Any "proclivity" should be irrelevant my guy. If mice had such a crazy chance above and beyond humans to develop cancer in any standard environment then I'm quite sure other animals would be used as controls, because it would too heavily affect the research.

See above, messing with genes that are specifically responsible for cell growth absolutely is "carcinogenic" because if it mutates and grows rampantly due to that manipulation that is in fact a direct correlation... Im absolutely lost with what you're saying regarding GH/MK here though, as they're completely different mechanisms for action existing in a different "system" so to speak.. Sure GH regulates growth, metabolism, muscle, bone, etc... but in entirely different manners I would assume that have no direct or even indirect correlation with PPAR agonists, like you're suggesting.. Again however, Im just a meathead who is good at finding stuff on the internet and reading it... Am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

In what sense is the fact that the rodents would almost certainly have died of cancer without any treatments at all ‘irrelevant’

Secondly, the minimum equivalent dosage that proliferated cancer in rats (3mg/kg) is 45g for an 80kg male. This is already 4.5x greater than the typical dosage taken for performance enhancement/lipid management. The male rats were administered up to 40(!!)mg/kg. @Type-IIx stated an equivalence of up to 65mg daily for a male. That is absolutely a mega dose and certainly not the 10mg that @Jin23 misremembered

Thirdly, these rats were administered these high dosages for approximately 2/3 of their entire lifespan. This does not equate to the typical 2/3 month cycles ran for performance

Fourthly, the science isn’t even out on PPAR B/D agonists regarding cancer as reports have emerged citing both increases in and protection against cancer

Fifth, cardarine went through human trials at up to 10mg. No cancer proliferation found

Sixth, a 2016 study showed cardarine to be protective against pancreatic cancer

Seventh, if you’re still worried, metformin concurrently with cardarine greatly diminishes the pathway by which it is thought cardarine may proliferate cancer cell growth


Sunlight is carcinogenic, asbestos is carcinogenic. The dosage and duration of exposure makes the poison


If you’re still worried don’t take it, it won’t change your life and there are plenty of medications that provide better lipid management just lack the endurance improvements


If you do decide to do it, take a reasonable dose and limit your duration of exposure. If you’re extremely paranoid maybe take Berberine or even metformin with it

 

[Hesoprimaltho]

In what sense is the fact that the rodents would almost certainly have died of cancer without any treatments at all ‘irrelevant’

Secondly, the minimum equivalent dosage that proliferated cancer in rats (3mg/kg) is 45g for an 80kg male. This is already 4.5x greater than the typical dosage taken for performance enhancement/lipid management. The male rats were administered up to 40(!!)mg/kg. @Type-IIx stated an equivalence of up to 65mg daily for a male. That is absolutely a mega dose and certainly not the 10mg that @Jin23 misremembered

Thirdly, these rats were administered these high dosages for approximately 2/3 of their entire lifespan. This does not equate to the typical 2/3 month cycles ran for performance

Fourthly, the science isn’t even out on PPAR B/D agonists regarding cancer as reports have emerged citing both increases in and protection against cancer

Fifth, cardarine went through human trials at up to 10mg. No cancer proliferation found

Sixth, a 2016 study showed cardarine to be protective against pancreatic cancer

Seventh, if you’re still worried, metformin concurrently with cardarine greatly diminishes the pathway by which it is thought cardarine may proliferate cancer cell growth


Sunlight is carcinogenic, asbestos is carcinogenic. The dosage and duration of exposure makes the poison


If you’re still worried don’t take it, it won’t change your life and there are plenty of medications that provide better lipid management just lack the endurance improvements


If you do decide to do it, take a reasonable dose and limit your duration of exposure. If you’re extremely paranoid maybe take Berberine or even metformin with it

I dont have time for this anymore, people have been going back and forth for ages now about this and I doubt we'll discover anything enlightening in this thread, more likely we'll shortly devolve to personal slights and dumb shit like "you're gay", "no you're gay", "hey focus on the topic and stop thinking about dicks for a second", etc... But Ill leave the thread with two words (applicable to any and all with any opinions, myself included): confirmation bias

 

[VenomYo]

Rad150 made me shed three times as much hair as 1gram of masteron did

 

[Deleted member 134759]

There isn’t really strong evidence of cardarine being carcinogenic at reasonable doses

Your logic is the equivalent of “well if I eat only a little pink insulation then it’s perfectly safe”

 

[CPT]

Your logic is the equivalent of “well if I eat only a little pink insulation then it’s perfectly safe”

No, it’s the equivalent of “20 minutes in the sun without sun cream is safe but don’t sit in the sun all day”

It really isn’t hard to grasp

 

[MingDao]

The studies had reasonable dosages. It's pretty obvious cardarine is a potential risk.

Cardarine was never tested in humans or even human cell lines. There's only rat research and rat dose conversions are broscience. Over decade or more of human use I haven't heard a single anecdotal case of cancer associated with cardarine

 

[Jin23]

You fellas are acting like you're paid to defend this compound. And it sounds like an ideological debate, honestly. What is this compound representing to you? It's just a chemical ... use it or don't, up to you.

 

[hallomonde]

At the end of the day, there is plenty i can use without worry about cancer, so, why bother with cardarine If there is the smallest of the chances?

 

[Deadp007]

At the end of the day, there is plenty i can use without worry about cancer, so, why bother with cardarine If there is the smallest of the chances?

What do you like that has the positive effects of cardarine?

 

[CPT]

Cardarine was never tested in humans or even human cell lines. There's only rat research and rat dose conversions are broscience. Over decade or more of human use I haven't heard a single anecdotal case of cancer associated with cardarine

Cardarine was tested in humans

 

[CPT]

You fellas are acting like you're paid to defend this compound. And it sounds like an ideological debate, honestly. What is this compound representing to you? It's just a chemical ... use it or don't, up to you.

If you’re still worried don’t take it, it won’t change your life

These were my exact words

 

[GenciAfro]

I want to combine SARM's with Primo for limited Side effect such as Gyno, Hair loss and Accne. What are your thoughts on this cycle:
Weeks 1-12:

Testosterone Enanthate: 750mg per week (injected in divided doses twice a week)
Primobolan (Methenolone): 600mg per week (injected in divided doses twice a week)
MK-2866 (Ostarine): 25mg per day
Cardarine (GW-501516): 20mg per day

Weeks 1-14:

HCG: 500iu twice a week (injected the day before each testosterone injection)

Weeks 15-16:

HCG: 1000iu per day for 10 days (to help kickstart natural testosterone production before beginning PCT)

Weeks 17-20:

Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate): 50mg per day
Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate): 20mg per day

GW-501516 (CARDARINE) 15 mg day dosed once a day in the a.m.
lower it a bit

 

[I6JQdr06]

It was cancer prone rodents who were given mega doses of cardarine. Can’t believe this is still being peddled

Of course it *is* possible that you’re not interpreting the study correctly on account of not being a trained medical professional/scientist.

 

[I6JQdr06]

In what sense is the fact that the rodents would almost certainly have died of cancer without any treatments at all ‘irrelevant’

Secondly, the minimum equivalent dosage that proliferated cancer in rats (3mg/kg) is 45g for an 80kg male. This is already 4.5x greater than the typical dosage taken for performance enhancement/lipid management. The male rats were administered up to 40(!!)mg/kg. @Type-IIx stated an equivalence of up to 65mg daily for a male. That is absolutely a mega dose and certainly not the 10mg that @Jin23 misremembered

Thirdly, these rats were administered these high dosages for approximately 2/3 of their entire lifespan. This does not equate to the typical 2/3 month cycles ran for performance

Fourthly, the science isn’t even out on PPAR B/D agonists regarding cancer as reports have emerged citing both increases in and protection against cancer

Fifth, cardarine went through human trials at up to 10mg. No cancer proliferation found

Sixth, a 2016 study showed cardarine to be protective against pancreatic cancer

Seventh, if you’re still worried, metformin concurrently with cardarine greatly diminishes the pathway by which it is thought cardarine may proliferate cancer cell growth


Sunlight is carcinogenic, asbestos is carcinogenic. The dosage and duration of exposure makes the poison


If you’re still worried don’t take it, it won’t change your life and there are plenty of medications that provide better lipid management just lack the endurance improvements


If you do decide to do it, take a reasonable dose and limit your duration of exposure. If you’re extremely paranoid maybe take Berberine or even metformin with it

I always found it funny (dark but funny), that a potential multi-billion dollar drug failed standard cancer screening so wasn’t pursued… but a bunch of bodybuilders on the internet know better thank Glaxo Smith Kline.

If only you were all on the board of directors, they’d surely see the error in their research strategies.

Anyone for ivermectin

 

[CPT]

I always found it funny (dark but funny), that a potential multi-billion dollar drug failed standard cancer screening so wasn’t pursued… but a bunch of bodybuilders on the internet know better thank Glaxo Smith Kline.

If only you were all on the board of directors, they’d surely see the error in their research strategies.

Anyone for ivermectin

Can only assume you’ve completely removed aspartame from your diet then?