Spetz bayer test/European pharm aro blood

[bootdoc]

Will say- it takes 1/2 lives x 5 for levels to stabilize regardsless of the medication.

test c/e have 1/2 life of 5-10 days (we need broad ranges for the fact people respond differently)
si taking a test at 3 weeks definitely did not let levels stabilize.

5 x half lives before stable blood levels occur....
Anything earlier does not get a stable half life.

 

[Dr JIM]

Here's one study, with Rugby players having an average level of 1.3, which would be at the limit or above the limit on many labs reference range.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2579448/

Did you even READ the study Burr, NOT! Because the authors used BMI as a comparison for serum creatinine levels. Now there is a HUGE difference between LBM and BMI!

FACT IS the study even mentions (close to the last paragraph) those mates with the lowest LBM (Rugby players) had HIGHER creatinine levels (average 1.3mg/dl) while those athletes with the highest LBM (Cyclists) had the LOWEST CREATININE (average 0.91mg/dl)! See Table 1 for the citations comparative summary.

Goodness if your going to debate using references Burr, may I suggest you devote at least some time to reading and understanding their content.

 

[Burrr]

I think you might be mistaken on what lean body mass is. A fat ass sumo wrestler would have a shit load of LBM, the mass that's left over after you subtract the fat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_body_mass

For fucks sake, I learned what LBM was my first week on BB.com

 

[Dr JIM]

Please so now your suggesting Sumo wrestlers have elevated creatinine levels, NOT.

With that comment and Wiki reference, it's obvious you don't understand why some have contended BB with a higher LBM may develop elevated creatinine levels.

Oh yea I'm mistaken Burr, lol!

 

[Burrr]

Dude, you still don't get what LBM is. And those with it will often have higher creatine levels.
How high is too high, that's a question for a guy to ask his DR, so I will not speculate. I'll just post links.

 

[Burrr]

another link on the subject of creatinine levels, supplements, and weight lifting. http://www.researchgate.net/post/Wh..._creatinine_levels_as_measured_in_blood_tests

 

[Dr JIM]

Dude, you still don't get what LBM is. And those with it will often have higher creatine levels.
How high is too high, that's a question for a guy to ask his DR, so I will not speculate. I'll just post links.

Burr why don't you read even the WIKI citation bc LMB is reported as a percent of TBW.

There are MANY factors that influence CREATININE levels and LBM is certainly one BUT changes in LMB is NOT a reason for a serum creatinine that exceeds a labs reference range (or certainly a creatinine >1.5mg/dl) ABSENT an medical evaluation.

This is entirely different than someones BUN which does NOT necessarily warrant an investigation UNLESS the serum creatinine is also elevated.

Ergo it's very bad advice to suggest BB have elevated creatinine levels bc they have increased their LBM. That's bc the CHANGES (this implies a baseline is needed for comparison), if they occur at all, are minimal.

 

[Burrr]

YOU need to go back and read the wiki "The percentage of total body mass that is lean is usually not quoted – it would typically be 60–90%"

If a DR is concerned about the creatine levels on a big ass weightlifter/ bodybuilder, he will assume that at least some of the elevation is the result of heavy lifting. He would ask the patient to stop taking supplements, large amounts of protein, and weightlifting, and retest.

 

[Dr JIM]

YOU need to go back and read the wiki "The percentage of total body mass that is lean is usually not quoted – it would typically be 60–90%"

If a DR is concerned about the creatine levels on a big ass weightlifter/ bodybuilder, he will assume that at least some of the elevation is the result of heavy lifting. He would ask the patient to stop taking supplements, large amounts of protein, and weightlifting, and retest.

Please BURR there are TWO components to TBW; TB Fat and LBM.
so the percent quoted is either one or the other, calculus is NOT a requisite, lol!

Oh, how enlightening Burr, you know what the medical standard of care is for those patients with an elevated creatinine, lmao!

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

Do you have any idea why patients with Rhabdomyolysis may develop an elevated serum creatinine BURR? Hint it's NOT bc of changes in LBM

I won't give the answer away but is it possible for intense weight training to induce rhabdomyolysis?

 

[Dr JIM]

G

I won't give the answer away but is it possible for intense weight training to induce rhabdomyolysis?

Good point CBS!

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

another link on the subject of creatinine levels, supplements, and weight lifting. http://www.researchgate.net/post/Wh..._creatinine_levels_as_measured_in_blood_tests

This link involves a BB with elevated creatinine who was using 5 grams of creatine/day.

 

[Burrr]

Jim, I'm just a guy that has talked to his Dr about his own creatine levels.
But fact is, you are the one that is just winging it in this discussion.
I know what LBM means, and I've talked to one real life Dr with a PHD on the wall that says weightlifting is likely behind my slightly out of range creatine.
Plenty of e-doctors out there saying the same thing.

 

[Burrr]

This link involves a BB with elevated creatinine who was using 5 grams of creatine/day.

good point, the Dr here agrees with Jim that the creatine does not play much of a role at 5g a day.
"In my opinion creatine supplementation had nothing to do with the elevated lab values which were most likely related to his intense training. I would recommend another blood draw at least 2-3 days after intense training, but he may need even longer depending on the muscle damage and the intensity of his training. However, there could be more going on here as well. If his BUN/Creatinine Ratio was not high it would support the idea that his kidneys are fine and the elevated blood creatinine levels are due to the heavy lifting."

I hope this helps,

Jordan R. Moon, PhD

 

[Dr JIM]

Well if I'm "winging it" Burr your the least qualified Meso member to help me or anyone else FLY, lol!

 

[Burrr]

I tried to help by posting links, at least you'll go to bed tonight knowing what LBM is.
It's cool though, you taught me what risperdal was.

 

[Dr JIM]

good point, the Dr here agrees with Jim that the creatine does not play much of a role at 5g a day.
"In my opinion creatine supplementation had nothing to do with the elevated lab values which were most likely related to his intense training. I would recommend another blood draw at least 2-3 days after intense training, but he may need even longer depending on the muscle damage and the intensity of his training. However, there could be more going on here as well. If his BUN/Creatinine Ratio was not high it would support the idea that his kidneys are fine and the elevated blood creatinine levels are due to the heavy lifting."

I hope this helps,

Jordan R. Moon, PhD

Burr you haven't the faintest idea what this PHD is referring to bc the fact is there is data (case studies) that supplementing creatine at 5Gms / day can result in a FALSE POSITIVE creatinine elevation.

So post where I made a comment of that nature LIAR!

 

[Burrr]

6) Of course there are exceptions, such as consuming more than FIVE GRAMS of CREATINE DAILY, BUT they are NOT the norm, period!

This would translate to <=5 grams is not an exception to the rule. Shit, you just wrote that a little while ago. You forget this already?

 

[Dr JIM]

Damn BURR can you F..ing READ!

I'm clearly stating there ARE EXCEPTIONS as to WHY someone with a HIGH LMB may have an elevated creatinine that EXCEEDS 1.5mg/DL, and ONE EXCEPTION is consuming 5Gms of creatine per day.

It's also important to KNOW this high end creatine consumption causes a FALSE POSITIVE creatinine elevation.

That means even though the creatinine may have double the kidneys are FINE. To that end ones physicians MUST be provided specific details about creatine use, less the patient undergo a full evaluation for possible ACUTE RENAL
FAILURE!!

Goodness sake Burr why you elect to be such a minimalist when evaluating research, articles, threads or someone else's posts is beyond understanding and is no doubt why many of your referenced commentary is riddled with errors.

You can't "WING IT" Burr, especially when medically related topics are the sunject/s being discussed!

 

[Dr JIM]

I've talked to one real life Dr with a PHD on the wall that says weightlifting is likely behind my slightly out of range creatine.
Plenty of e-doctors out there saying the same thing.

Oh is that right Burr, but didn't this discussion involve the relationship between LBM and serum creatinine levels?

HELL YES!

Is THAT distinction important?

HELL YES! Bc weight lifting itself causes MUSCLE BREAKDOWN that raises the serum creatinine level RATHER than "changes in LBM PER SAY"! (The latter being my point of emphasis throughout this discussion)

That disease or ailment is referred to as RHABDOMYOLYSIS Burr which most certainly can raise creatinine levels.

In fact Rhabdo may even result in ARF if severe enough

I suggest you devote more time developing a comprehensive understanding of subject material, BEFORE entering into a debate, with well read firemen as myself!