Spetz bayer test/European pharm aro blood

[Burrr]

Oh is that right Burr, but didn't this discussion involve the relationship between LBM and serum creatinine levels?

And I posted a study that showed a relationship between lean body mass and creatine levels over 1.2, the number you used in your original comment.

You were confused on what lean body mass was, and thought we were talking about bf%
Do you even lift, fireman?

 

[double-leg]

Math makes my head hurt!

 

[Dr JIM]

Do you even lift, fireman?

Does that matter Burr, bc the discussion is about medicine and I know I "do" much more of that than you will ever read about, reference, misquote, misinterpret, or misunderstand in your entire lifetime!

Now go read about Rhabdomyolysis so you don't misquote your OWN doctors again Burr!

Because your definitely wasting my time continually deflecting questions in an effort to; disguise research you don't comprehend, misuse medical terms you've never heard of, explain the standard of a profession you know nothing about, boast about something you only do on weekends, parrot others when offering advice you don't understand, willingly support, as secretarial head honcho, someone who has scammed multiple mates with BULLSHIT "Mass Spec" analyses.

So give it a break Burr ya looser!

 

[Oregongearhead]

Why does a persons creatinine raise when they cycle ?

Normally I am around 120-125mg/dl but when I cycle its went as high as 140mg/dl , but always drops back down 4-6 wks later . My BUN and creatinine/BUN ratio always normal . I had one doctor say I had stage3 kidney disease (I was on cycle), my main doctor laughed and said it was because I lift weights constantly . Confusing .....~Ogh

 

[Voltrader]

Why does a persons creatinine raise when they cycle ?

Normally I am around 120-125mg/dl but when I cycle its went as high as 140mg/dl , but always drops back down 4-6 wks later . My BUN and creatinine/BUN ratio always normal . I had one doctor say I had stage3 kidney disease (I was on cycle), my main doctor laughed and said it was because I lift weights constantly . Confusing .....~Ogh

Maybe the main docs comments about the weights was him saying I know what you do. i actually thought it had to do with muscle metabolism it increases when on cycle so creatine waste creatinine also increases ....no? Usually flushed through the kidneys and disposed through your urine. On cycle numbers are higher so a Dr. can read this as kidney disease because it looks like your kidneys are not flushing out the creatinine. As we know it is only a temprorary condition. As probably your main doc knows too.

 

[Oregongearhead]

Maybe the main docs comments about the weights was him saying I know what you do. i actually thought it had to do with muscle metabolism it increases when on cycle so creatine waste creatinine also increases ....no? Usually flushed through the kidneys and disposed through your urine. On cycle numbers are higher so a Dr. can read this as kidney disease because it looks like your kidneys are not flushing out the creatinine. As we know it is only a temprorary condition. As probably your main doc knows too.

My question Volt , is what in the AAS causes the increase ? Yes I was hiding the fact from the first doctor that I was cycling so it probably is a false positive but why does it increase when on the juice ?

 

[Voltrader]

Protein utilization rates go up. We also increase the amount of protein when on Cycle typically. Increasing creatine. Your main doctor might just be alluding to the fact you lift weights and it does equate typically to a protein rich diet. Thats the best I got got before going to google search. I always thought the concern was in post cycle bloods if that level did not go back down. Now the anti-AAS Pundits like to use we are doing damage to our kidneys because of these increased creatinine levels. I guess my question goes right along with your original then Why do levels go back to normal. I always thought that was a good thing meaning yes there was strian on the kidneys but they handled at our back to functioning normal.

My question Volt , is what in the AAS causes the increase ? Yes I was hiding the fact from the first doctor that I was cycling so it probably is a false positive but why does it increase when on the juice ?

 

[Dr JIM]

A likely explanation is what I've already eluded to in this thread, it's called Rhabdomyolysis.

It's well established to occur in those whom are heavy lifters (in addition to many other athletes or activities) pushing their muscles to lyse (rupture). Which is also a likely contributor to muscle soreness after a "hard work out".

This then causes the release of MYOGLOBIN, which can obstruct the renal tubules, reducing GFR, with the net effect being an increase in Creatinine levels.

Whether Rhabdo is the cause may be ascertained by checking your BASELINE CPK (Creatinine Phospho Kinase) levels and comparing it to the CPK roughly 12-24 hours AFTER a heavy WO.

Are AAS themselves contributory, not at all likely IMO.

Regs
Jim

 

[Oregongearhead]

A likely explanation is what I've already eluded to in this thread, it's called Rhabdomyolysis.

It's well established to occur in those whom are heavy lifters (in addition to many other athletes or activities) pushing their muscles to lyse (rupture). Which is also a likely contributor to muscle soreness after a "hard work out".

This then causes the release of MYOGLOBIN, which can obstruct the renal tubules, reducing GFR, with the net effect being an increase in Creatinine levels.

Whether Rhabdo is the cause may be ascertained by checking your BASELINE CPK (Creatinine Phospho Kinase) levels and comparing it to the CPK roughly 12-24 hours AFTER a heavy WO.

Are AAS themselves contributory, not at all likely IMO.

Regs
Jim

So most of us heavy lifters here are walking around in a "Rhabdo state" most of the time Dr. Jim ?

Im gonna stop the weights/high protein for a few months soon and see the difference in my bloodwork . Ive been planning this for a quite some time...

 

[Voltrader]

A likely explanation is what I've already eluded to in this thread, it's called Rhabdomyolysis.

It's well established to occur in those whom are heavy lifters (in addition to many other athletes or activities) pushing their muscles to lyse (rupture). Which is also a likely contributor to muscle soreness after a "hard work out".

This then causes the release of MYOGLOBIN, which can obstruct the renal tubules, reducing GFR, with the net effect being an increase in Creatinine levels.

Whether Rhabdo is the cause may be ascertained by checking your BASELINE CPK (Creatinine Phospho Kinase) levels and comparing it to the CPK roughly 12-24 hours AFTER a heavy WO.

Are AAS themselves contributory, not at all likely IMO.

Regs
Jim

Thanks for coming in and clearing that up. Threw my attempt at being Dr. Out the window.

 

[Dr JIM]

I high creatinine, greater than 1.5 MUST BE EXPLAINED or requires further evaluation to determine it's cause.

That's bc elevated creat are almost always related to some form of kidney disease!

I'll try to post some articles on Rhabdo tomorrow they are NOT difficult to locate.

Just Google Rabdomyolysis in athletes you'll have enough to read for A YEAR, no BS!

 

[Dr JIM]

Thanks for coming in and clearing that up. Threw my attempt at being Dr. Out the window.

High protein diets per say DO NOT increase serum creatinine levels, but the WO that follows a high protein diet certainly may.

Oh sure eat a ten pound steak and that creatinine will likely increase but minor changes are not important or even those that normalize over time, It's an upward trend in creat levels that are worrisome.

I just don't want mates to believe an elevate creat is from gaining muscle all the while overlooking a kidney problem bc of some bad advice they received on an AAS forum!

 

[Oregongearhead]

I high creatinine, greater than 1.5 MUST BE EXPLAINED or requires further evaluation to determine it's cause.

That's bc elevated creat are almost always related to some form of kidney disease!

I'll try to post some articles on Rhabdo tomorrow they are NOT difficult to locate.

Just Google Rabdomyolysis in athletes you'll have enough to read for A YEAR, no BS!

Ive read alot about Rhabdo and muscle wasting and I know about Rhabdo from my dad who got it from statins , they changed the statins and he was fine .

It makes sense since braking down muscle tissue every other day for months & years at a time has to have some effect on the body . Thats why I want to try a "weights/protein celibacy period" and see if my kidney levels go down that much....

 

[Dr JIM]

What's your creatinine level been OGH?

 

[bootdoc]

Rhabdomylosis can be caused by intense working out.

I will read and learn from the above posts.

 

[Oregongearhead]

What's your creatinine level been OGH?

Mine really does vary alot , nothing consistant , off-cycle - 125,127,131,128,126mg then its been as high as 140 right after a heavy test/EQ/Tbol cycle , but then went back to 131 then 126 again. Im due to get tested again so we will see this is longest Ive went in 5 yrs without a bloodtest (7 months) .

Of course at 54 , I have a lower GFR than if I was 24 with the same 126mg creatinine level . That sucks , and baffles me.....

 

[Dr JIM]

Ive read alot about Rhabdo and muscle wasting and I know about Rhabdo from my dad who got it from statins , they changed the statins and he was fine .

It makes sense since braking down muscle tissue every other day for months & years at a time has to have some effect on the body . Thats why I want to try a "weights/protein celibacy period" and see if my kidney levels go down that much....

Are BB in a state of constant rabdo? I suppose that's true in part BUT CONDITIONING greatly diminishes this process, mate.

Most of the "damage" from Rhabdo occurs in the renal tubules rather than the glomeruli.

Consequently the condition is REVERSIBLE. Whether or not chronic Rabdo results in declining renal function I really don't know.

We do know whenever diabetics spill albumin into their renal tubules a sort of autoimmune reaction occurs in which an inflammatory process causes a further reduction in renal function.

Fact is those drugs, like ACE inhibitors, which lessen the amount of albumin which enters the urine improves these patients renal function!

I really don't know if chronic renal tubule exposure to myoglobin may cause a problem similar to that which diabetics experience.

 

[Dr JIM]

Thanks for coming in and clearing that up. Threw my attempt at being Dr. Out the window.

Don't be so hard on yourself Volt some don't even try , mate!

 

[Dr JIM]

Mine really does vary alot , nothing consistant , off-cycle - 125,127,131,128,126mg then its been as high as 140 right after a heavy test/EQ/Tbol cycle , but then went back to 131 then 126 again. Im due to get tested again so we will see this is longest Ive went in 5 yrs without a bloodtest (7 months) .

Of course at 54 , I have a lower GFR than if I was 24 with the same 126mg creatinine level . That sucks , and baffles me.....

Have you or your doc calculated or measured your GFR recently.

You can't use the lab estimate bc they are GROSSLY inaccurate since WEIGHT is not included in that formula.

 

[Voltrader]

Don't be so hard on yourself Volt some don't even try , mate!

No very nice good info here this is why I love this place. Know something now that I kind of wondered about.