Starting PCT too Early. SIde effects?

[Sampei]

So My question is:

If I start administering SERMs to EARLY what's the side effects I could get?

Example: I finished my test p cycle only, I know that I should start SERM 7 days after last pin, but I want to start it 4-5 days instead.

Does it change anything? Do I risk anything in starting a bit early?

@Dr JIM
@Michael Scally MD

 

[flexx89]

i dont think so..pretty sure prop only has a half live of 3 days

 

[Sampei]

helloooooo anyone? Dr. come in please

 

[unforgivingconsumer]

Half life of prop is 3 days, max! You need to start SERMs then. Who the fuck told you to start at 7 days? Maybe you're thinking Phenylpropionate.

As for what would happen if you started early, nothing. I mean, SERMs just block estrogen in specific tissue. The reason you take them is because of negative feedback induction. You're trying to limit the amount of estrogen your hypothalamus perceives so it starts spewing GnRH. So, in the course of things, you may waste some SERM if you start too early, but this is typically a problem for long esters like Enanthate or Undecanoate or Cypionate.

Look, here is what happens when you pin Prop every 3 days:

http://steroidplot.com/share/?l=1&t...terone&c0_f=propionate&c0_s=3&c0_fr=1&c0_to=1

Now look at pinning Prop every 5 days:

http://steroidplot.com/share/?l=1&t...terone&c0_f=propionate&c0_s=5&c0_fr=1&c0_to=1

There is almost no exogenous testosterone in the blood after day 4. Honestly, questions like this could be answered with research. Why are you messing around with AAS if you don't already know the answer?

 

[Sampei]

you dumb or what?
Read the sticky, it takes more or less 3-4 half-life before the test level drops below a non-natural level.

Before bashing me, you should research more.

 

[inforthegains]

I don't think starting early does anything other than waste extra ancillaries...

Half life of prop is 3 days, max! You need to start SERMs then. Who the fuck told you to start at 7 days? Maybe you're thinking Phenylpropionate.

As for what would happen if you started early, nothing. I mean, SERMs just block estrogen in specific tissue. The reason you take them is because of negative feedback induction. You're trying to limit the amount of estrogen your hypothalamus perceives so it starts spewing GnRH. So, in the course of things, you may waste some SERM if you start too early, but this is typically a problem for long esters like Enanthate or Undecanoate or Cypionate.

Look, here is what happens when you pin Prop every 3 days:

http://steroidplot.com/share/?l=1&t...terone&c0_f=propionate&c0_s=3&c0_fr=1&c0_to=1

Now look at pinning Prop every 5 days:

http://steroidplot.com/share/?l=1&t...terone&c0_f=propionate&c0_s=5&c0_fr=1&c0_to=1

There is almost no exogenous testosterone in the blood after day 4. Honestly, questions like this could be answered with research. Why are you messing around with AAS if you don't already know the answer?

bro steroidplot only shows how much of the compound is being released...

you still have to wait multiple half-lives for it to clear from your system, just as @Sampei said...

you don't start your PCT after a single half-life...

 

[TheGuy85]

So My question is:

If I start administering SERMs to EARLY what's the side effects I could get?

Example: I finished my test p cycle only, I know that I should start SERM 7 days after last pin, but I want to start it 4-5 days instead.

Does it change anything? Do I risk anything in starting a bit early?

@Dr JIM
@Michael Scally MD

I usually start pct 5 days after last prop pin.

 

[unforgivingconsumer]

you dumb or what?
Read the sticky, it takes more or less 3-4 half-life before the test level drops below a non-natural level.

Before bashing me, you should research more.

The terminal half life of test prop is .8 days...

So at 3 days that's nearly 4 half lives.

You dumb or what?

 

[unforgivingconsumer]

I don't think starting early does anything other than waste extra ancillaries...



bro steroidplot only shows how much of the compound is being released...

you still have to wait multiple half-lives for it to clear from your system, just as @Sampei said...

you don't start your PCT after a single half-life...

You're right about not starting PCT after a single half-life. However the terminal half-life of test prop is .8 days. I suppose we abuse the term "half-life." Steroidplot is literally only showing halflives and the resultant hormonal blood levels. I'm not sure how you think the blood levels are generated in relation to time?

 

[unforgivingconsumer]

From Behre HM, Nieschlag E. 1998 Comparative pharmacokinetics of testosterone esters.

11.3.1 Testosterone propionate

11.3.1.1 Single dose pharmacokinetics

Single dose pharmacokinetics of testosterone propionate were studied in sev- en patients with secondary hypogonadism due to chromophobe adenomas of the pituitary, aged 19-58 years (Nieschlag et al. 1976). Five patients were in- vestigated prior to, two patients six months after surgical removal of the ade- noma. No patients had received testosterone treatment previously. 50 mg of testosterone propionate were injected at 18.00 h on the control day. Blood samples were obtained at 8.00 h on the following test days. Basal testosterone levels, measured at 8.00 h on the control day, were subtracted from the tes- tosterone concentrations measured on the test days to evaluate the pharma- cokinetics of the exogenously administered testosterone. Measured testoster- one concentrations±SEM and the best-fitted pharmacokinetic profile of tes- tosterone propionate kinetics are shown in Fig. 11.2. Maximal testosterone levels in the supraphysiological range were seen shortly after injection (40.2 nmol!l, tmax = 14 h). Testosterone levels below the normal range were ob- served following day 2 (57 h) after injection. The calculated values for AUC were 1843 nmol x hll, for MRT 1.5 d and 0.8 d for terminal half-life.

11.3.1.2 Multiple dose pharmacokinetics


Based on the single dose pharmacokinetic parameters, a multiple dose phar- macokinetic simulation was performed. Expected testosterone serum concen- trations after multiple dosing of 2 times 50 mg testosterone propionate twice per week (e.g. injections Mondays and Thursdays, 8.00 h) are shown in Fig. 11.3. Shortly after injection high supraphysiological testosterone serum concentrations up to 45 nmolll are observed. At the end of the injection in- terval (three and four days, respectively) testosterone serum concentrations below the lower range of normal testosterone values are projected (7 nmolll and 3 nmolll, respectively).

Judged by the data from pharmacokinetic analysis and simulation, admin- istration of testosterone propionate is not suitable for substitution therapy of male hypogonadism because of resulting wide fluctuations of testosterone se- rum concentrations and maximal injection intervals of three days for the 50 mg dose.

 

[inforthegains]

From Behre HM, Nieschlag E. 1998 Comparative pharmacokinetics of testosterone esters.

11.3.1 Testosterone propionate

11.3.1.1 Single dose pharmacokinetics

Single dose pharmacokinetics of testosterone propionate were studied in sev- en patients with secondary hypogonadism due to chromophobe adenomas of the pituitary, aged 19-58 years (Nieschlag et al. 1976). Five patients were in- vestigated prior to, two patients six months after surgical removal of the ade- noma. No patients had received testosterone treatment previously. 50 mg of testosterone propionate were injected at 18.00 h on the control day. Blood samples were obtained at 8.00 h on the following test days. Basal testosterone levels, measured at 8.00 h on the control day, were subtracted from the tes- tosterone concentrations measured on the test days to evaluate the pharma- cokinetics of the exogenously administered testosterone. Measured testoster- one concentrations±SEM and the best-fitted pharmacokinetic profile of tes- tosterone propionate kinetics are shown in Fig. 11.2. Maximal testosterone levels in the supraphysiological range were seen shortly after injection (40.2 nmol!l, tmax = 14 h). Testosterone levels below the normal range were ob- served following day 2 (57 h) after injection. The calculated values for AUC were 1843 nmol x hll, for MRT 1.5 d and 0.8 d for terminal half-life.

11.3.1.2 Multiple dose pharmacokinetics


Based on the single dose pharmacokinetic parameters, a multiple dose phar- macokinetic simulation was performed. Expected testosterone serum concen- trations after multiple dosing of 2 times 50 mg testosterone propionate twice per week (e.g. injections Mondays and Thursdays, 8.00 h) are shown in Fig. 11.3. Shortly after injection high supraphysiological testosterone serum concentrations up to 45 nmolll are observed. At the end of the injection in- terval (three and four days, respectively) testosterone serum concentrations below the lower range of normal testosterone values are projected (7 nmolll and 3 nmolll, respectively).

Judged by the data from pharmacokinetic analysis and simulation, admin- istration of testosterone propionate is not suitable for substitution therapy of male hypogonadism because of resulting wide fluctuations of testosterone se- rum concentrations and maximal injection intervals of three days for the 50 mg dose.

So with a single-injection protocol of 50mg, they calculated the terminal half-life @ 0.8 days (with the MRT then @ 1.5d)? And sub-physiological ranges were measured at 57h (2.375d). So if I read this correctly, if your cycle were a SINGLE dose of 50mg prop, you would start SERMS 2.5 days after your pin.

Then they further expanded to a multiple-injection protocol (a. I'm not a scientist and b. seeing the referenced figures would have been nice, lol). What they seem to be saying is that 50mg prop pinned biweely clears out enough between pins (on that Mon/Thu protocol) to hit sub-physiological levels before the next pin, correct?

So if I am reading this all correctly then I see where you are going.

But you need to extrapolate this to people who are following actual protocols...e.g. 100mg prop EOD...and calculate it with the half-lives from there.

 

[unforgivingconsumer]

So with a single-injection protocol of 50mg, they calculated the terminal half-life @ 0.8 days (with the MRT then @ 1.5d)? And sub-physiological ranges were measured at 57h (2.375d). So if I read this correctly, if your cycle were a SINGLE dose of 50mg prop, you would start SERMS 2.5 days after your pin.

Then they further expanded to a multiple-injection protocol (a. I'm not a scientist and b. seeing the referenced figures would have been nice, lol). What they seem to be saying is that 50mg prop pinned biweely clears out enough between pins (on that Mon/Thu protocol) to hit sub-physiological levels before the next pin, correct?

So if I am reading this all correctly then I see where you are going.

But you need to extrapolate this to people who are following actual protocols...e.g. 100mg prop EOD...and calculate it with the half-lives from there.

Yes exactly. I'm unclear as to how dosages affect half-life. I always believed that dose was irrelevant to how long an exogenous hormone remained in the body, and that it was totally dependent on ester. Like 100mg test prop will clear the same time as 10mg test prop.

Here is the PDF with the images you wanted. Starts on page 333.

 

[unforgivingconsumer]

One thing to examine as well is not only half life, but MRT, or mean residence time. For prop, MRT looks to be at 1.5 days.

 

[inforthegains]

Yes exactly. I'm unclear as to how dosages affect half-life. I always believed that dose was irrelevant to how long an exogenous hormone remained in the body, and that it was totally dependent on ester. Like 100mg test prop will clear the same time as 10mg test prop.

Here is the PDF with the images you wanted. Starts on page 333.

Thx for the sauce, sorry I don't have time to at least skim through it now but I will do so later tonight.

So we're getting well past my comfort zone on this as far as MRT and terminal half-life are concerned.

If someone is pinning 100mg prop EOD then that is 2.5 (terminal) half-lives between each pin.

However I have read that the elimination half-life of testosterone is 8 days. It is my understanding that the individual esters merely affect the release of the hormone and not the half-life of the hormone itself. So with longer esters you are waiting for a longer period of time to return to sub-physiological levels because you are first waiting for the ester itself to clear (i.e. stop releasing T) and then for the half-life of the actual serum T.

So assuming what you linked means each dose will not have fully cleared between pins, the amount of time required for the ester to clear to sub-physiological levels in order for PCT to be properly timed would ultimately depend on the length of the cycle, correct (and of course the dose if it is not 100mg as I specified)?

I am seeing that terminal half-life and elimination half-life are not identical...again, this is beyond me...


edited above

 

[inforthegains]

If any of what I'm posting is incorrect then somebody pls quote it and slap me around a bit.

I will def go through that PDF later this evening.

 

[unforgivingconsumer]

Thx for the sauce, sorry I don't have time to at least skim through it now but I will do so later tonight.

So we're getting well past my comfort zone on this as far as MRT and terminal half-life are concerned.

If someone is pinning 100mg prop EOD then that is 2.5 (terminal) half-lives between each pin.

However I have read that the elimination half-life of testosterone is 8 days. It is my understanding that the individual esters merely affect the release of the hormone and not the half-life of the hormone itself. So with longer esters you are waiting for a longer period of time to return to sub-physiological levels because you are first waiting for the ester itself to clear (i.e. stop releasing T) and then for the half-life of the actual serum T.

So assuming what you linked means each dose will not have fully cleared between pins, the amount of time required for the ester to clear to sub-physiological levels in order for PCT to be properly timed would ultimately depend on the length of the cycle, correct (and of course the dose if it is not 100mg as I specified)?

I am seeing that terminal half-life and elimination half-life are not identical...again, this is beyond me...


edited above

This study should answer some of your questions. The hormone is bound to the ester. Half is affected, as such.

Testosterone is rapidly cleared as demonstrated by the fast
decrease in testosterone concentrations following castration. The
administration of 14C-testosterone to a gelding resulted in a T max
of 3 h with labeled testosterone no longer being detectable in
plasma after 24 h and the majority cleared from urine by 200 h
(Houghton & Dumasia, 1979).

This is with horses and aqueous testosterone, or test suspension.

http://www.rmtcnet.com/resources/An_interlaboratory_study_of_the_pharmacokinetics_of_testosterone_following_intramuscular_administration_to_Thoroughbred_horses.pdf

 

[unforgivingconsumer]

This is for anyone reading this thread in the future:

GO READ THE STICKY, IT IS UPDATED AND HAS CORRECT INFORMATION

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/comprehensive-guide-to-pct.134353228/

After much research on my own, I decided to wise the fuck up and read the sticky. The information is there! Disregard my first post in this thread. If I could delete it because it contains bad info I would.

@Sampei you were correct about starting PCT around roughly 7 days after the last prop pin, but for the wrong reasons. For posterity and the sake of reliable information, I am completely correct regarding half-life, but using half-life is a good way to mess up PCT.

What we are looking for is TT to be below the level it rested at before cycle, as this is when the HPTA can begin to produce LH and FSH. Exogenous hormone prevents this.

That is it. That simple, but figuring out the time window depends on dose, duration, and drugs used.

YOU CANNOT TRULY ENGAGE IN PCT WITHOUT LABWORK.