SymBiotics (U.S. domestic)

[GrowingSeason36]

I am pretty sure I just read a correlation to MJ missing a jump shot and finding contaminates in a vial. Sorry, I wasn’t ready for that this morning.

 

[Rival]

It’s like Jordan missing a jumper, does that not make him a great ball player. I know Meso is a harm reduction thread and is the reason why I’m here. I know things can happen even at a pharmaceutical level.

When Jordan misses a free throw, people’s health aren’t at risk. I appreciate the analogy though, and am not attacking you with this. While I agree with you and appreciate Sym; a foreign contaminant for some people, regardless if sterile or not could cause serious health implications. This should be taken serious. For some it could go unnoticed. I for one don’t want to take that chance. Will I use his gear and the replacement he’s sending? Yes, but it’s going to be re-filtered and moving forward just brewing my own.

I think we need to sit back (as I’m guilty of defending Sym too) shut up and let him resolve this shit and come forward, and stop defending him on his behalf. I’m not exactly okay with the explanation he gave to be honest, as it takes away from the fact there were actual things floating in my vile, not something to do with oxidation or fibers sticking to a label (while I did have 3 vials with exactly that issue). I’d like for him to address that because I honestly am having a hard time believing he didn’t find ANY.

 

[Villain]

When Jordan misses a free throw, people’s health aren’t at risk. I appreciate the analogy though, and am not attacking you with this. While I agree with you and appreciate Sym; a foreign contaminant for some people, regardless if sterile or not could cause serious health implications. This should be taken serious. For some it could go unnoticed. I for one don’t want to take that chance. Will I use his gear and the replacement he’s sending? Yes, but it’s going to be re-filtered and moving forward just brewing my own.

I think we need to sit back (as I’m guilty of defending Sym too) shut up and let him resolve this shit and come forward, and stop defending him on his behalf. I’m not exactly okay with the explanation he gave to be honest, as it takes away from the fact there were actual things floating in my vile, not something to do with oxidation or fibers sticking to a label (while I did have 3 vials with exactly that issue). I’d like for him to address that because I honestly am having a hard time believing he didn’t find ANY.

Yeah, he magically sold all the hairy vials and now the rest of his stock is perfect

 

[Pineapples4Puss]

When Jordan misses a free throw, people’s health aren’t at risk. I appreciate the analogy though, and am not attacking you with this. While I agree with you and appreciate Sym; a foreign contaminant for some people, regardless if sterile or not could cause serious health implications. This should be taken serious. For some it could go unnoticed. I for one don’t want to take that chance. Will I use his gear and the replacement he’s sending? Yes, but it’s going to be re-filtered and moving forward just brewing my own.

I think we need to sit back (as I’m guilty of defending Sym too) shut up and let him resolve this shit and come forward, and stop defending him on his behalf. I’m not exactly okay with the explanation he gave to be honest, as it takes away from the fact there were actual things floating in my vile, not something to do with oxidation or fibers sticking to a label (while I did have 3 vials with exactly that issue). I’d like for him to address that because I honestly am having a hard time believing he didn’t find ANY.

I didn’t find any in mine either I had a decent order... but for him to look at what 5k+ vials according to his post when he said he was looking and not find one is sus. I’m going to check mine again and probably another time. I’m with you on this you hit the nail on the head.

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

Hello everyone.
I believe I have reached a conclusion on the source of contaminant(s) and formed a plan for remedy of any chance of foreign matter entering vials.
Contaminant source:
A: I feel almost 100% certain that any fibers found inside the vials would be cellulose or polypropylene fibers from the sterilization wraps I used for my vial trays. In all honesty, I was somewhat surprised at how commonplace it is for sterilization wraps and sterile gowns to shed fibers. I will try to code a link and add a pdf with informative information about the subject at the end of this post. I have never coded a link here; so I am unsure how but I will try. I the links work, there is an image of the type of 'lint' I saw on my gloves that prompted me to discard the sheets and 28 vial trays a while back. It may be in the PDF; I can't remember. I have read and looked at an enormous amount of information. What I encountered was nothing as severe as the picture; but it was the same color and texture.
B: Hematite or iron oxide (rust) is one of the most frequent contaminants found in sterile liquid pharmaceutical products. Some articles claim that it is the most frequent contaminant. Any black specks seen within the vials will most likely be rust particles from vial manufacturing or, again, from the sterilization wraps manufacturing equipment.
C: It is possible that things floating in the air can get in the vial during the time my smaller trays are exposed before the wrap is applied. I am very careful and practice very good hygiene when this is done; but I do not have a certified clean-room and I am not sterile during the vial transfer to my autoclave trays.

Please keep in mind that this is common enough for billion-dollar pharmaceutical companies and hospital surgical suites to have encountered the same issues-----prompting articles to be written and resolution strategies to be designed. While I do my very best to do a good job at this; I am not nearly as equipped as many entities who have had similar issues. In short----I have done the absolute best I could do with what I had to work with.

Going forward:
From my deduction, there is a singular root cause to any potential contamination of a vial; and that is the process of sterilization of the vials. I have looked for hours at different sterile vial suppliers and I have found one with vials that are of nearly the same dimensions as mine but do not have the blowback ridge for the stopper since they are not North American made. This is not a problem and I intend to use these pre-sterilized vials for any future injectable preparations.
I am not using pre-sterilized vials because they will be 'more sterile' than my process; but because they are sterilized by gamma radiation and have no contact with synthetic or natural fiber wraps. It will cost me more money; but will take a step out of my process that will benefit everyone.

Existing stock:
I'm not going to empty out all of those vials and re-filter them. I'm just not. The contents of those vials are sterile and I have not found one single fiber/floater/pube/or otherwise in them. I'm not finished with them yet; but I haven't found anything so far EXCEPT some inclusions that look like black spots within the walls of a few of the vials. This is a common problem that is discussed in one of the links I have as well if anyone would like to read about it. These black spots are rust also and they are contained within the glass; so there is no way that they could ever enter the body through injecting the contents of the vial. The injectable vials will still be available for purchase after each one is examined and then examined again under blacklight.

Refunds and reshipments:
Nothing has changed about the way I stand behind my products. Anyone who has any product that has:

1. a bad analytical test (with a legitimate report),
   
2. a vial with visible contaminants (with a photo of the contaminant), or
   
3. an omission/mistake in their order

will receive his/her choice of an immediate refund for the affected container(s) or a reshipment of the same value.

I was very caught off guard by this whole thing and I was/am embarrassed about it.
However, in the last couple of days there have been many people who emailed me to demand their entire order be replaced, including oral suspensions and armodafinil.
One even threatened to ruin my "bitch ass in the anabolic world" if I didn't refund AND reship his order. I do not respond to threats well.
I am not going to reship or refund full orders as some sort of expectation; and those representatives of the community have completely removed any excess generosity I had going into this problem resolution.
I do not mind helping and I require myself to make amends; but I will certainly not be taken advantage of in that way.

I am open to any questions or comments and I am always willing to work for an amicable solution. This is a sound theory of contamination possibility and a sound proposal for remedy of any future contamination potential.

I am very very tired and I need to sleep tonight. I realize that there will be some emails that pass the 24 hour mark before I can reply in the morning; but I have gone as long as I can without sleep now.
No person will be left with an issue that is not addressed. Just please remember that there are 10x as many worried-well emails as there are potential issues and each person gets the same level of attention. Emails are answered in the order they are received; except for new order emails which are left to the autoreply only.

I want to briefly inquire about the widespread inability to take photographs of these contaminants:
My phone is fairly old; but it has a 8mp camera that takes very good photos.
In the photos below there is a speck I saw in a NPP vial. It is tiny and is circled in blue. It was actually on the label and circled in blue in the 2nd picture although I mangled the label when trying to remove it. Yes, this is in my bathroom and this is from my personal supplies that are the same as what I send out in packages. And yes, that is a floss pick beside it for reference of size. The point of these pictures is to show that my ordinary phone can take pictures of very tiny specks at very close distances. Also, of note is that I did not see that until I looked into the vial for about 2 minutes.
View attachment 133293
View attachment 133292

The link for the article is here. I hope it is done right.

https://www.mccrone.com/mm/contaminant-identification-pharmaceutical-products/

Well Sym, I’ll say I’m disappointed. This was supposed to be a kick-ass proposal that would put everyone’s mind at ease so you could continue operating as usual. Instead, you have given us a half-ass write up.

You gave us nothing to work with regarding trust. You could have provided product and batch numbers for the vials that may be affected. Are we left to believe it’s ALL of them?

And then you are leaving it as buyer beware for any vials you have in your current inventory since you indicated that you have no interest in re-filtering them. So anytime someone orders and receives their stuff, they need to inspect everything they get from you. To make matters worse, there seems to be stuff stuck to your labels on the outside that may look like a floater but it’s not.

I don’t know man, none of that exudes “order with confidence. This is the “trust” that we are use to working with here. You’ve broken that trust to the point where guys are now filtering YOUR gear before they use it. That’s what people can do with semi-finished oil from Panda at HALF the cost.

I gave you advice to think long and hard about this because your proposal for moving forward was like starting over brand new here. I appreciate that you will make things right for guys that find floaters. You do realize now that you opened yourself up to potential reverse scams? This is why you are probably better off pulling your inventory and refiltering or trashing it. Selling that stuff doesn’t exude confidence in the product and you’re going to have the balcos of MESO taking advantage of you.

I expected more Sym. You have a loyal following for sure but I would guess that customer base that you worked hard for will be cut in half. You’ll get noob buyers moving forward. You were one of the better domestic sources here for now. But just like you buried Prissy, the next good source to pop up is going to bury you real quick. Accurately dosed product with the fear of floaters isn’t “top product”. You could do better to help your cause.

 

[dokdonia]

If he's been using the cellulose and "low lint" SMS fabric sterilization wraps in his vial sterilization process from the beginning, this has been a potential contamination source from the beginning, last August. Every vial filled/sold.

 

[Test_Subject]

Any black specks seen within the vials will most likely be rust particles from vial manufacturing or, again, from the sterilization wraps manufacturing equipment.

If the "rust particles" are left over from the vial manufacturing process, you clearly didn't rinse them very well prior to heating.

 

[BigJ89]

Just offer both stocks. Offer the old vials at a discount with a buyer beware, until it is sold out and then offer the new stock with the new vials also

 

[Mdrock98]

Ok ok.. you guys win. There’s no excuse. Thanks for giving me a left hook to the chin. I need rattled up from time to time.

 

[limitphobic]

There’s no way to inspect every vial properly before shipping them out. I’m no mathtologist but it took me a good 2-3 minutes to find the debris in 1 vial... any math majors want to have at this one? Not defending Sym. He should have had better procedures from the jump. To say he inspected every vial before sending them out... must’ve been a glance and a short one to boot. Time to start street-doc shopping on the forum again I suppose. ....... UNLESS HE RECTIFIES THIS.

 

[Rival]

Just offer both stocks. Offer the old vials at a discount with a buyer beware, until it is sold out and then offer the new stock with the new vials also

that’s a great solution IMO. That way the buyer is aware and accepting that fact.

 

[BigJ89]

that’s a great solution IMO. That way the buyer is aware and accepting that fact.

Exactly. Offer both stocks at the same time so whoever it is can make a choice

 

[jbil75]

that’s a great solution IMO. That way the buyer is aware and accepting that fact.

That’s realky the only solution if he’s intent on selling the old stock.

 

[Test_Subject]

I can't believe that people on Meso are actually suggesting that a source should knowingly sell contaminated gear.

Unreal. So much for the moral high ground.

BRB, I'm going to convince Uncle Z to make a thread here.

 

[BigJ89]

I can't believe that people on Meso are actually suggesting that a source should knowingly sell contaminated gear.

Unreal. So much for the moral high ground.

Don’t buy it then. That’s the point, if you feel it’s contaminated, you have that option. Or demand he trashes all his old stock and starts over with the new method he stated. Alls I was trying to say is it’s a possible option

 

[Villain]

I can't believe that people on Meso are actually suggesting that a source should knowingly sell contaminated gear.

Unreal. So much for the moral high ground.

BRB, I'm going to convince Uncle Z to make a thread here.

It’s not too much different than semi-finished oils, both require filtration.

 

[Test_Subject]

It’s not too much different than semi-finished oils, both require filtration.

That's fair. It just feels icky to say "yeah man, sell it."

I have nothing against Sym, but sources have been run off for less. It kind of feels like he's getting a pass because he has a lot of people who buy from him.

 

[Villain]

That's fair. It just feels icky to say "yeah man, sell it."

I have nothing against Sym, but sources have been run off for less. It kind of feels like he's getting a pass because he has a lot of people who buy from him.

Can’t and won’t disagree with you on either point. I think it’s sad that Meso has sunk to accepting the garbage we’ve been fed over this past year with sources.

 

[BigJ89]

It’s not too much different than semi-finished oils, both require filtration.

I didn’t even think of that, that’s an even better idea. Label the old stock as semi finished With a buyer beware and a recommendation to refilter, of course with a discount and then offer the new stock as finished. Problem solved

 

[Sp2.0]

Meso's new source standards. If you brew floater gear dont worry, just tag it as semi-finished gear or better yet just say I'm not filtering it buy it if you want to.

Come back greyscale, venom and little bear labs we desperately need sources.