SymBiotics (U.S. domestic)

[size26s]

This is how I feel sometimes. When I hear people are running tren or other drugs and I see them at the gym and I can’t even tell they are on anything. A lot of guys run a ton of shit and you see them and you think YOU like you normal, not ripped not cut nothing just normal. I see it all the time. A lot of guys on a lot of gear and you can’t even tell. Not all of us have the same goals or genetics or work ethic but when I hear joe doe is talking this and that and it blows my mind when they are 185 pounds soaking wet. Not that I’m some beast kinda beast but I see it all the time.

And not everyone abuses who competes my body is national qualified and doing nationals and he is running 200 test 200 tren 200 mast and 50 anavar. To me that’s not a lot to gear guys on here I see guys sayin what they take and I know aren’t competing it’s way more than that. Again every one has diffrent goals but if you run a bunch of compounds I hope it shows some what

 

[OnTheRize]

Any idea how many mg of test he applied and what his bloodwork showed? Most guys will probably compare those results against injections unless their just using it on recovery days or preworkout. I knew one other guy selling transdermal test but never saw bloods from it.

There are many different forms of transdermal Testosterone.
The gels like Androgel are garbage. They have inconsistent absorption rates and react differently to different skin types.
The patches have similar problems and cause nasty skin reactions over time for some reason.
The scrotal patches are known to fall off due to SBS (sweaty ball syndrome).
...but the versabase creams absorb Testosterone though the dermal barrier almost perfectly, have no record of skin reactions, and are now vastly preferred over injections in the TRT community. Versabase T-creams provide absolutely more consistent levels of T in the body over injections. With versabase T-creams, the level of testosterone in the body is consistently the same all day every day. The exception to injections providing the same level of consistent T levels is with ED or EOD injections of long esters at precise doses...which is a pain in the ass to measure with 200mgs/mL or higher out of a vial. Levels of T fluctuate somewhat even with E3D injections. With versabase T-cream, you wash your balls in the shower, dry the boys off (use a towel, floss them with a Shamwow, deerskin cloth, Kleenex brand tissue, blot them with a newspaper...whatever your into), apply the cream and go hit your syllabus for the day.

As of recent there are liquid Testosterone drops made to absorb through the skin at almost 100% within 5 minutes of application. Unfortunately there are very very few compounding pharmacies that use very complex medical equipment to infuse the T into the liquid-complex carrier that allows this delivery system...this will become the norm for TRT in the next 10-20 years. Maybe UGL guys will be able to do this eventually.

The only argument I could make for it not being a good idea for someone to use it would be if they have children, I would be worried about it transferring to them or my wife.

It's a very good argument. The old T-gels could transfer T to other people up to an hour and a half after application. If Symbiotics is using a versabase cream, the T is absorbed and dry in less than 15 minutes with a zero chance of transference after that time...plus it's typically applied to the balls. I keep my balls inaccessible to anyone but my girlfriend but she can wait to play with them till I pin or apply cream before she touches them.

I worry that my son will get cute and try to get into one of my vials to pin himself to have muscles like dad so I keep that stuff on lockdown. "Hide your wife, hide your kids, hide your PEDS!"

 

[ibncaleb]

Anyone have good feedback from the test e, orals, ai's?

 

[Logan44551]

There are many different forms of transdermal Testosterone.
The gels like Androgel are garbage. They have inconsistent absorption rates and react differently to different skin types.
The patches have similar problems and cause nasty skin reactions over time for some reason.
The scrotal patches are known to fall off due to SBS (sweaty ball syndrome).
...but the versabase creams absorb Testosterone though the dermal barrier almost perfectly, have no record of skin reactions, and are now vastly preferred over injections in the TRT community. Versabase T-creams provide absolutely more consistent levels of T in the body over injections. With versabase T-creams, the level of testosterone in the body is consistently the same all day every day. The exception to injections providing the same level of consistent T levels is with ED or EOD injections of long esters at precise doses...which is a pain in the ass to measure with 200mgs/mL or higher out of a vial. Levels of T fluctuate somewhat even with E3D injections. With versabase T-cream, you wash your balls in the shower, dry the boys off (use a towel, floss them with a Shamwow, deerskin cloth, Kleenex brand tissue, blot them with a newspaper...whatever your into), apply the cream and go hit your syllabus for the day.

As of recent there are liquid Testosterone drops made to absorb through the skin at almost 100% within 5 minutes of application. Unfortunately there are very very few compounding pharmacies that use very complex medical equipment to infuse the T into the liquid-complex carrier that allows this delivery system...this will become the norm for TRT in the next 10-20 years. Maybe UGL guys will be able to do this eventually.



It's a very good argument. The old T-gels could transfer T to other people up to an hour and a half after application. If Symbiotics is using a versabase cream, the T is absorbed and dry in less than 15 minutes with a zero chance of transference after that time...plus it's typically applied to the balls. I keep my balls inaccessible to anyone but my girlfriend but she can wait to play with them till I pin or apply cream before she touches them.

I worry that my son will get cute and try to get into one of my vials to pin himself to have muscles like dad so I keep that stuff on lockdown. "Hide your wife, hide your kids, hide your PEDS!"

Sounds like you know way more about transdermal testosterone than I do. There is a lot of good information in this post, thank you

 

[SymBiotics]

I don't know how many would vote for a transdermal T cream but I for one am all about it.

I don't mind pinning at all but the advantage of not having to pin larger quantities of oil running different compounds together with Test, large amounts of oil from a single vial of Test, or deal with pip from a high dose vial (Test-E 400mgs/ml) seems very favorable to me.

I don't know if others would want to part ways with what's familiar for something they haven't tried though. There is, however, at least one gentleman on this board that uses raws with DMSO for the administering many different AAS and stands by it.

You would be the first that I personally know of to offer an AAS transdermal cream as a UG manufacturer which would be huge if your market was big enough. Of course others would have to be on board but I see absolutely no reason why anyone who knows about Test base cream to give a good argument as to why they shouldn't use it over pinning an oil based version of T.

A couple questions:
Would this be a versabase or other lipoderm based cream. Specifically, what would be the carrier?
Would it require scrotal application?
What would the strength of the cream be and how would it be measured out accurately by user?

For what it's worth, my hats off to you for innovation regardless of what the members of this board decide.

Thank you for your response.
The base I used for this one is a pluronic lecithin organogel base; and I dosed it at 2% w/w testosterone. I have another non-PLO vanishing base that I received after I made his cream; and I found it to be less irritating to the skin.
Both of the bases, that I have, have been studied against others, VersaBase included; and these were found to have greater absorption at 12 hours than VersaBase. I'm sorry, but I can't divulge the manufacturer because it is not available for unlicensed purchase.
The dose metering container is FDA approved for topical pharmaceutical dispensing; and dispenses 1ml per application.

My friend was using 1ml per day applied to alternating sites, including: both wrists, both upper arms, and both inner thighs. I decided to exclude scrotal application because I would not use this method; and I wouldn't ask someone to do something I won't do myself.

At 1ml/day, he was using 20mg testosterone in the 2% cream. He had his blood drawn at 27days total therapy, on the morning before the 28th dose.
This was 140mg testosterone per week, which gave him a total serum testosterone of 713ng/dl reported by LabCorp. His serum testosterone before using this cream was 193.
Anecdotally, he stated he felt much better. We did not discuss erections, libido, etc.

 

[OnTheRize]

Sounds like you know way more about transdermal testosterone than I do. There is a lot of good information in this post, thank you

Glad to be able to help brother.

I'm fortunate to get to share with others what I've learned from the TRT world. I've had to go through a lot of personal experiences (some good, some bad), do a shit ton of research, talk to many medical practitioners, pharmacologist, etc... and sift through a lot BS to separate facts from opinions.
I wished more people doing the TRT thing educated themselves before speaking in absolutes out of ego when advising others on how to proceed...would have spared me a lot of grief.
After spending so much time over there I want to learn as much as I can over here and eventually be able to educate others on AAS in a similar way. I'm still relatively wet behind the ears with PED and relying on all of you for better footing.

I'm really grateful for all the AAS users here that are willing to check their damn egos before posting and help point me in a good direction.

 

[SymBiotics]

I would be in for some but not as my main source. My long term dream is Test-U every 14d for a baseline and some cream to help out with recovery on hard training days.

Testosterone undecanoate powder is en route currently.

 

[SymBiotics]

The only argument I could make for it not being a good idea for someone to use it would be if they have children, I would be worried about it transferring to them or my wife.

Those are valid concerns regarding medication safety.
I do maintain that the end user of my product must assume the responsibility for their use or misuse. Any and all medications should always be unreachable for children; and it was one of the main things I felt compelled to include on my labels.
Cutaneous transference from intimate contact is something that the user would have to be mindful of. The particular bases I have are completely absorbed after a short time; but must be rubbed into the skin as opposed to smeared on and walking out the door.

The transdermal cream is just an idea that started as a "see if I can do it" type of project. I thought I would poll the audience to see if it would be popular. I think I may just scratch the idea for now because it is a bit more work and expense than I am inclined to put forth unless there is overwhelming demand.

 

[SymBiotics]

Monday comes early tomorrow. I hope everyone has a great night and you all wake up well rested and ready for the week.

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[Oj Da Juice Mane]

Just want to do my first post by asking for donations to the hoods of America! We are a local group, with a mission to provide underprivileged poverty stricken Americans in the ghetto an opportunity to make money selling illegal products.
Any donations are welcome! The minimum being a cycle of test e and Winny. F

 

[movingiron88]

This is how I feel sometimes. When I hear people are running tren or other drugs and I see them at the gym and I can’t even tell they are on anything. A lot of guys run a ton of shit and you see them and you think YOU like you normal, not ripped not cut nothing just normal. I see it all the time. A lot of guys on a lot of gear and you can’t even tell. Not all of us have the same goals or genetics or work ethic but when I hear joe doe is talking this and that and it blows my mind when they are 185 pounds soaking wet. Not that I’m some beast kinda beast but I see it all the time.

And not everyone abuses who competes my body is national qualified and doing nationals and he is running 200 test 200 tren 200 mast and 50 anavar. To me that’s not a lot to gear guys on here I see guys sayin what they take and I know aren’t competing it’s way more than that. Again every one has diffrent goals but if you run a bunch of compounds I hope it shows some what

Great, well explained response. This is what I'm talking about as well. I cant believe what some people run, especially for the results they are obtaining or lack there of. People bragging about all the shit they take, like a badge of honor. I feel better results could be obtained simply through diet and hard work. But who wants to do that anymore? For many this lifestyle has become drug centered.

 

[TheObjective1]

Goodnight everyone!

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When will a drol be back on with Supension or orals. An have you considered instead of just 30ml oral suspension do 50 or 60 if you could find them? Just curious I have had other sources who did oral sup. And they offered a 30day dose if you dosed 1xa day with what the mg was to ML. But then a 60 day jug. Thanks hope all is well.

 

[OnTheRize]

Thank you for your response.
The base I used for this one is a pluronic lecithin organogel base; and I dosed it at 2% w/w testosterone. I have another non-PLO vanishing base that I received after I made his cream; and I found it to be less irritating to the skin.
Both of the bases, that I have, have been studied against others, VersaBase included; and these were found to have greater absorption at 12 hours than VersaBase. I'm sorry, but I can't divulge the manufacturer because it is not available for unlicensed purchase.
The dose metering container is FDA approved for topical pharmaceutical dispensing; and dispenses 1ml per application.

My friend was using 1ml per day applied to alternating sites, including: both wrists, both upper arms, and both inner thighs. I decided to exclude scrotal application because I would not use this method; and I wouldn't ask someone to do something I won't do myself.

At 1ml/day, he was using 20mg testosterone in the 2% cream. He had his blood drawn at 27days total therapy, on the morning before the 28th dose.
This was 140mg testosterone per week, which gave him a total serum testosterone of 713ng/dl reported by LabCorp. His serum testosterone before using this cream was 193.
Anecdotally, he stated he felt much better. We did not discuss erections, libido, etc.

I appreciate the response.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Androgel is PLO based gel and it is a pharmaceutical product which is well known to have erratic absorption across various skin types and a high chance of transference to others.
The studies I've found concerning other compounded testosterone PLO bases have shown and absorption efficacy of between 6%-50% from individual to individual as well as a high chance of transference of testosterone to others.
PLO based gels can irritate particular skin types as well as skin on certain areas of the body, especially with prolonged use.
Are there new PLO bases that mitigate these problems?

Can you point to the data or link some studies that specifically shows a PLO base testosterone gel is superior to versabase T or other transdermal T-creams?

PLO base drug delivery systems efficacy concerning absorption are proven to vary depending on the particular drug being delivered transdermally. While PLO carrier bases may be more efficient in transdermally administering drugs such as Ketamine, I believed the contrary is true with testosterone.
Testosterone cream bases such as the one used in Pentravan are shown to be 1.6-1.8 times more efficient at absorption through all dermal membranes when compared to PLO based Testosterone delivery systems in the medical literature I've read.

Why not choose the scrotal application method? Scrotal application is widely used and regarded as superior to all other forms of delivery by the leading HRT physicians in the medical field.
Aside from scrotal T-creams being known to elevate DHT slightly higher than other delivery systems (good for libido, bad for prostate) I don't know why you wouldn't consider it. What are your safety concerns?
Compounded versabase creams are, from my understanding, much more efficient at delivering testosterone scrotally as opposed to other current testosterone transdermal delivery system used on other parts of the body. Is there literature which states otherwise?
The scrotum is a much more permeable dermal layer for steroids than other areas of the body.

Comparing Testosterone based PLO gels topically applied to the wrists or upper arms, Pentravan shows an 8 fold increase in absorption on average when applied to the scrotum.
Pentravan reaches peak plasma concentrations within 4 hours. Blood drawn 5 hours after it's application reflect its efficacy in raising total testosterone levels extremely quickly and efficiently.

Lastly, scrotal creams leave a silky smooth nutrient rich looking sheen on the boys...who would object to that? Applying cream to a pair of freshly shaven grapes can't be worse than using a thin hollow metal ice pick to puncture every layer of skin through the fascia and deep into the muscle to inject Testosterone...can it?

What is the other lipoderm matrix carrier compound you were considering using? You said it was a vanishing cream. What is the compound?

 

[MisterSuperGod]

Great, well explained response. This is what I'm talking about as well. I cant believe what some people run, especially for the results they are obtaining or lack there of. People bragging about all the shit they take, like a badge of honor. I feel better results could be obtained simply through diet and hard work. But who wants to do that anymore? For many this lifestyle has become drug centered.

Not specifically speaking of Ronald, as his post is where this all began, but in general, i believe there's a misguided notion that drugs will pick up the slack where diet and training is concerned.

The more slack there is, the more drugs they want to throw into their body, and before long, they're running cycles with a list of compounds as long as my arm.

i think some guys would give me the stink eye if they heard what my last couple cycles looked like. The way some people talk, my cycles are their cruise.

But what can you do? We as members of a harm reduction board can only suggest that more isn't better or that in many instances, the use of drugs isn't required to reach their end result, but at the end of the day, what they choose to do is on them.

Horse to water, yada yada yada.

 

[size26s]

Great, well explained response. This is what I'm talking about as well. I cant believe what some people run, especially for the results they are obtaining or lack there of. People bragging about all the shit they take, like a badge of honor. I feel better results could be obtained simply through diet and hard work. But who wants to do that anymore? For many this lifestyle has become drug centered.

Yea my old trainer always told me gear is 15-20 percent. The rest is diet, training and genetics. Yea I don’t get bragging what others take. Plus I get bloods to know how my actually health is.

One trainer locally is know for this drugging up people on their first cycles and very young
There was a kid maybe 23 170 he had him on first cycle 900 test 900 eq eq and 300 npp for a week! I said that’s inane I said what is your pct he said huh! I said what are doing when you come off. He said me coach said I can stay on all the time. The guys The Olympia don’t come off lol. But I don’t feel bad for him. If you want to pay someone to take advantage of you you on you but with the information we have now, there is no reason to not google or do research.

I do take more drugs when I prep but when I blast and cruise it’s usually just 2 compounds. My cruise was 250 a week and now my blast is 700 test 300 decca a week. I’ve been taking for about 7 years and to me I don’t feel that’s an insane cycle it’ll be 12 weeks and I’m 5”8 215

 

[SymBiotics]

I appreciate the response.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Androgel is PLO based gel and it is a pharmaceutical product which is well known to have erratic absorption across various skin types and a high chance of transference to others.
The studies I've found concerning other compounded testosterone PLO bases have shown and absorption efficacy of between 6%-50% from individual to individual as well as a high chance of transference of testosterone to others.
PLO based gels can irritate particular skin types as well as skin on certain areas of the body, especially with prolonged use.
Are there new PLO bases that mitigate these problems?

Can you point to the data or link some studies that specifically shows a PLO base testosterone gel is superior to versabase T or other transdermal T-creams?

PLO base drug delivery systems efficacy concerning absorption are proven to vary depending on the particular drug being delivered transdermally. While PLO carrier bases may be more efficient in transdermally administering drugs such as Ketamine, I believed the contrary is true with testosterone.
Testosterone cream bases such as the one used in Pentravan are shown to be 1.6-1.8 times more efficient at absorption through all dermal membranes when compared to PLO based Testosterone delivery systems in the medical literature I've read.

Why not choose the scrotal application method? Scrotal application is widely used and regarded as superior to all other forms of delivery by the leading HRT physicians in the medical field.
Aside from scrotal T-creams being known to elevate DHT slightly higher than other delivery systems (good for libido, bad for prostate) I don't know why you wouldn't consider it. What are your safety concerns?
Compounded versabase creams are, from my understanding, much more efficient at delivering testosterone scrotally as opposed to other current testosterone transdermal delivery system used on other parts of the body. Is there literature which states otherwise?
The scrotum is a much more permeable dermal layer for steroids than other areas of the body.

Comparing Testosterone based PLO gels topically applied to the wrists or upper arms, Pentravan shows an 8 fold increase in absorption on average when applied to the scrotum.
Pentravan reaches peak plasma concentrations within 4 hours. Blood drawn 5 hours after it's application reflect its efficacy in raising total testosterone levels extremely quickly and efficiently.

Lastly, scrotal creams leave a silky smooth nutrient rich looking sheen on the boys...who would object to that? Applying cream to a pair of freshly shaven grapes can't be worse than using a thin hollow metal ice pick to puncture every layer of skin through the fascia and deep into the muscle to inject Testosterone...can it?

What is the other lipoderm matrix carrier compound you were considering using? You said it was a vanishing cream. What is the compound?

You are correct on the inconsistent absorption rates of Androgel; but it is a hydroalcohilic gel rather than PLO. All of the hydroalcoholic hormone gels are unpredictable to my knowledge. I would assume this is because of the water in them not penetrating the stratum corneum; and the alcohol evaporating prior to the hormone being transported. That is my own rationale and I have no data for that hypothesis.

Older PLO bases are inferior to some of the newer transdermal products; but this one is relatively new. I couldn't speak to how they make this one a better product; but the data is there to prove the manufacturer's claim. I am unsure about new PLO formulations mitigating the skin irritation. It was irritating to me; and that was the reason I found a different base to try next time. Pentravan is a nice product. There is nothing wrong with that base, other than the one I found has greater 12 hour absorption than Pentravan.

I would not hesitate to share the manufacturer; but, as I stated earlier, the sale is restricted. If someone were to know what type of facility I purchase it from, then cross reference the region from where I ship; it would too greatly narrow the possibilities of my supplier. The documentation of efficacy includes the brand name in all of the literature; so provision of the data is also a negative.

Regarding testicular application: I just didn't want to do it. My greatest concern was the apprehension of skin irritation down there. All of your points regarding the superiority of the scrotal surface for transdermal application are valid and accurate: but I just don't like it, so that is my stance on it.

When you mention "versabase", are your referring to the trade name product Versabase; or a generalization to similar transdermal vehicles? I ask because there are many good products out there. I only included the Versabase comparison in my original response because I thought you were discussing the trade named product; which was proven to be inferior to the one I used.

 

[SymBiotics]

When will a drol be back on with Supension or orals. An have you considered instead of just 30ml oral suspension do 50 or 60 if you could find them? Just curious I have had other sources who did oral sup. And they offered a 30day dose if you dosed 1xa day with what the mg was to ML. But then a 60 day jug. Thanks hope all is well.

It was supposed to be included in the box I got Friday; but is not there. Yes, anadrol suspension will be restocked as soon as possible. Please remember that I will have to wait on testing after the raw material arrives.
I will probably not ever offer anything other than the 30ml bottles. They work well and they fit in my shipping containers with room for padding. Larger bottles will not. You are certainly welcome to buy 2 of the 30ml bottles if your desire 60ml

 

[SymBiotics]

I'm off to work in this beautiful, HOT, September weather. I hope everyone has a great day. Stay hydrated if you work outside!!

 

[Robby550]

While there are definitely a lot of guys/gals out there who are guilty of over reliance on peds to achieve their goals dont assume everyone is in this category. Some of us have been screwing around with the jooze for decades and dont rely on it for anything more than competition prep, busting through plateaus, or very calculated parts of their program(specific to goals). People born after 2000 might be another story.

Theres people born after 2000 using this stuff??? Fuk me im getting old. Lol. I got carded today and was like ok cool yea i got ID. Then walkimg out saw sign "we card everyone" i was like well fuk me. Lol. Sry everyone rant over

 

[puckhog]

@Swole Guacamole I am a little late to the party but I just wanted to comment on you “pip report” comment. While I don’t disagree with you I can’t agree 100%. Were you around here when SQS labs was peddling gear? Those motherfuckers sold npp that was a pip monster. I was the one who called them on a faulty brewing process and other people started coming forward with the same experience. They ended up pulling npp off their list because they found of the brewer fucked up the mix. They left meso shortly after. Their rep was incredible. Too bad his products were sub-par.
Sorry @SymBiotics for the detour. Back to regularly scheduled programs.