The hunt for a new lab for testing

[Millard]

If any meathead who had not majored in chemistry manages to decipher spectra as convoluted at those of oils, they are in a wrong field.

Bill Roberts said as much but without the pejorative "meathead" reference:

"The advice may be helpful for some. Due to a fairly high degree of technical difficulty this type of analysis will always be only for some, rather than suitable for all, unfortunately. If developments make it easy for anyone to do without needing a book’s worth of guidance, definitely at that time I’ll write more on how to do that. But presently, this is a way that could enable getting started."​

 

[janoshik]

Bill Roberts said as much but without the pejorative "meathead" reference:

"The advice may be helpful for some. Due to a fairly high degree of technical difficulty this type of analysis will always be only for some, rather than suitable for all, unfortunately. If developments make it easy for anyone to do without needing a book’s worth of guidance, definitely at that time I’ll write more on how to do that. But presently, this is a way that could enable getting started."​

There was nothing pejorative about that. It was a joke.

Just like that article.

It is not going to be helpful to some.
It is not going to be helpful to anybody.

It is pure nonsense.

If anybody is even remotely capable of deciphering convoluted spectra of a sample full of hydrocarbons, one of which is an anabolic steroid (ie, literally any AAS oil), they don't need any article for that nor they need to hide their intentions, as they probably have unlimited unsupervised access to multiple analytical techniques already.

And for anybody else it's completely useless as well.
It is an article for the sake of writing something.

There is a way to do what the article aims to achieve, without any of the hassle, and I have outlined it in mere 2 sentences in post #120.

 

[Millard]

There was nothing pejorative about that. It was a joke.

Just like that article.

It is not going to be helpful to some.
It is not going to be helpful to anybody.

It is pure nonsense.

If anybody is even remotely capable of deciphering convoluted spectra of a sample full of hydrocarbons, one of which is an anabolic steroid (ie, literally any AAS oil), they don't need any article for that nor they need to hide their intentions, as they probably have unlimited unsupervised access to multiple analytical techniques already.

And for anybody else it's completely useless as well.
It is an article for the sake of writing something.

There is a way to do what the article aims to achieve, without any of the hassle, and I have outlined it in mere 2 sentences in post #120.

I don't think you understand the point of the article. You seem to assume that the article is only intended as a DIY to perform NMR spectroscopy and interpretation. It is quite silly to think a short article is intended to make the average person a "PHD level chemist" capable of doing this.

The practical applications of the article info seem obvious to me. But maybe they are not to everyone. That is:

The average person can pay a real lab to perform NMR on the "unidentified" substance.

Then they can hire a qualified chemist to interpret the NMR data.

There are significant legal issues involved in the handling of AAS in the U.S. Maybe you don't have these in your jurisdiction. But this sidesteps some of those here.

It may not be the best method for everyone to accomplish their objective but it could be for "some".

 

[janoshik]

I don't think you understand the point of the article. You seem to assume that the article is only intended as a DIY to perform NMR spectroscopy and interpretation. It is quite silly to think a short article is intended to make the average person a "PHD level chemist" capable of doing this.

The practical applications of the article info seem obvious to me. But maybe they are not to everyone. That is:

The average person can pay a real lab to perform NMR on the "unidentified" substance.

Then they can hire a qualified chemist to interpret the NMR data.

There are significant legal issues involved in the handling of AAS in the U.S. Maybe you don't have these in your jurisdiction. But this sidesteps some of those here.

It may not be the best method for everyone to accomplish their objective but it could be for "some".

Millard. The article literally suggests for one to interpret it by himself.
Does it not?

Even if it did not, literally any point of view I take at the article it's nonsense.

I don't understand why are you defending it and I wish you wouldn't try to misinterpret my argument and ridicule me by implying I think that the said article is intended to provide any sort of knowledge "making one a chemist." Because now that would be silly indeed - but those are your words, not mine.

Spoiler

The thing is, even if the average person managed to get a chemist to interpret it, out of a hundred postgraduate chemists, there's maybe two that are capable of interpreting convoluted spectra. What is the likelihood of an average person finding a chemist just like that, who's willing to interpret "blind" sample, is available for hire for private person and won't charge a rate that's appropriate for specialized professionals - read as rate that would pay for the analysis in ANY of the labs available twice over at least? And all that just for... Identification.

Hell, melting point test or labmax would be more reasonable choices in any of the scenarios that I can imagine.

 

[movingiron88]

Millard. The article literally suggests for one to interpret it by himself.
Does it not?

Even if it did not, literally any point of view I take at the article it's nonsense.

I don't understand why are you defending it and I wish you wouldn't try to misinterpret my argument and ridicule me by implying I think that the said article is intended to provide any sort of knowledge "making one a chemist." Because now that would be silly indeed - but those are your words, not mine.

Spoiler

The thing is, even if the average person managed to get a chemist to interpret it, out of a hundred postgraduate chemists, there's maybe two that are capable of interpreting convoluted spectra. What is the likelihood of an average person finding a chemist just like that, who's willing to interpret "blind" sample, is available for hire for private person and won't charge a rate that's appropriate for specialized professionals - read as rate that would pay for the analysis in ANY of the labs available twice over at least? And all that just for... Identification.

Hell, melting point test or labmax would be more reasonable choices in any of the scenarios that I can imagine.

Jesus christ shit up. You sound like a kid throwing a tantrum. Dont worry I dont think it's going to hurt your business. It's doing bad enough on its own.

 

[mands]

Whay do you think about FTIR Spectrometer?
Is it a reliable method to test if your var is in fact var and not 50% flour and 50% dbol?

Have access to free analysis in Canada

An FT-Raman, FT-IR, and Quantum Chemical Investigation of Stanozolol and Oxandrolone

mands

 

[Mathg44]

An FT-Raman, FT-IR, and Quantum Chemical Investigation of Stanozolol and Oxandrolone

mands

"This conclusion is of great importance for the possible application of vibrational spectroscopy coupled with Surface Enhanced Raman Spectroscopy (SERS) as a diagnostic tool, since it consistently shows promising techniques."

Sadly, I'm not smart enough to understand 90% of what said in the paper.

If I understood correctly, this means that FTIR is a reliable method of testing?

 

[janoshik]

Sadly, I'm not smart enough to understand 90% of what said in the paper.

If I understood correctly, this means that FTIR is a reliable method of testing?

Don't worry, neither is he

That article has no relation to your question at all, so it's no wonder it doesn't make sense to you. It takes more than linking a first google result PubMed article to be actually helpful. It requires some actual knowledge.

FTIR is a reliable method of testing, especially for pure material or process analyses [read as analysis of same sample a million times], but it's not suitable for experimental purity determination or analysis of impure samples that don't have well documented impurities.

So it might be good for identification of your raw powder, but if there is some problem, ie impurity, or contamination, the usefulness is quickly diminished.

 

[Mathg44]

Don't worry, neither is he

That article has no relation to your question at all, so it's no wonder it doesn't make sense to you. It takes more than linking a first google result PubMed article to be actually helpful. It requires some actual knowledge.

FTIR is a reliable method of testing, especially for pure material or process analyses [read as analysis of same sample a million times], but it's not suitable for experimental purity determination or analysis of impure samples that don't have well documented impurities.

So it might be good for identification of your raw powder, but if there is some problem, ie impurity, or contamination, the usefulness is quickly diminished.

Are aas raws known to have high impurities?

 

[janoshik]

Are aas raws known to have high impurities?

Most of them are pure indeed.
But if yours were not, I don't think you'd find out with FTIR, unfortunately.

 

[Mathg44]

Most of them are pure indeed.
But if yours were not, I don't think you'd find out with FTIR, unfortunately.

Thanks brother

 

[janoshik]

Thanks brother

Happy to help. Good luck with your testing!

 

[mands]

"This conclusion is of great importance for the possible application of vibrational spectroscopy coupled with Surface Enhanced Raman Spectroscopy (SERS) as a diagnostic tool, since it consistently shows promising techniques."

Sadly, I'm not smart enough to understand 90% of what said in the paper.

If I understood correctly, this means that FTIR is a reliable method of testing?

It states that the testing method can be used and has been used to identify anacbolics. It can indeed tell the difference between dbol and anavar.

It cannot tell you the impurities or purity. Sort of similar to what labmax does crudely.

Jano is a fuck stick and obviously didn't read your entire question. Looking back on your quoted message he does shed some light stating it can be used for identification so my post actually does shed light on your OP.

He can't help himself. Every since he faked test results on vials of GH I sent to him, he has been labelled untrustworthy.

mands

 

[Mathg44]

It states that the testing method can be used and has been used to identify anacbolics. It can indeed tell the difference between dbol and anavar.

It cannot tell you the impurities or purity. Sort of similar to what labmax does crudely.

Jano is a fuck stick and obviously didn't read your entire question. Looking back on your quoted message he does shed some light stating it can be used for identification so my post actually does shed light on your OP.

He can't help himself. Every since he faked test results on vials of GH I sent to him, he has been labelled untrustworthy.

mands

Thanks for your input, appreciate it

 

[Millard]

I wish you wouldn't try to misinterpret my argument and ridicule me by implying I think that the said article is intended to provide any sort of knowledge "making one a chemist." Because now that would be silly indeed - but those are your words, not mine.

And these are your words...

If anybody is even remotely capable of deciphering convoluted spectra of a sample full of hydrocarbons, one of which is an anabolic steroid (ie, literally any AAS oil), they don't need any article for that nor they need to hide their intentions, as they probably have unlimited unsupervised access to multiple analytical techniques already.

it's far easier to look up steroids by their molecular mass for separate peaks (what average person can do with google) than deciphering convoluted NMR spectra (which is PHD level chemistry).

The thing is, even if the average person managed to get a chemist to interpret it

I don't know the answer to that. I'm sure you can understand why I'd prefer to hear about its feasibility from someone who is not conflicted.

 

[master.on]

Whay do you think about FTIR Spectrometer?
Is it a reliable method to test if your var is in fact var and not 50% flour and 50% dbol?

Have access to free analysis in Canada

The problem is that FTIR only works fine with pure compounds or very simple mixtures.

If there are many similar substances there, it becomes impossible to tell one substance from another just by using FTIR.
Hence some chromatography (GC or LC) is needed to separate them so they don't arrive to the detector at the same time.

 

[janoshik]

And these are your words...



I don't know the answer to that. I'm sure you can understand why I'd prefer to hear about its feasibility from someone who is not conflicted.

Millard. The article literally suggests for one to interpret it by himself.
Does it not?

I'm sure you can answer this on the other hand, even though you don't want to.

You choose to avoid any arguments of mine, as you can't disprove them. You don't want to determine whether it's feasible or not. You just don't want to lose an argument. There's no point in this discussion any longer.

 

[Millard]

I'm sure you can answer this on the other hand, even though you don't want to.

You choose to avoid any arguments of mine, as you can't disprove them. You don't want to determine whether it's feasible or not. You just don't want to lose an argument. There's no point in this discussion any longer.

Wow. I could care less about winning or losing an argument. I am trying to provide information that could potentially help members. I think most people here know me and know that very well.

On the other hand, I could also say that you don't care whether it's feasible or not. And that you just want to find ways to continue pushing sales of your services on this forum.

As far as your argument is concerned...

Your argument here is simple: the information in Bill Roberts article about NMR is completely useless.

My argument is simple also: the information could empower some individuals to seek a certified lab for NMR analysis + certified chemist for interpretation as a method of substance analysis.

The only question I have is the feasibility.

The article certainly encourages qualified people to interpret it themselves but warns that most people can't do this. Just because the article says it is the individual's job to interpret does not mean that the individual is literally the only person who should interpret it.

The takeaway and conclusion is that the individual hire an expert to perform this step. Again, some people are sufficiently resourceful to do this. Some are not.

 

[janoshik]

On the other hand, I could also say that you don't care whether it's feasible or not. And that you just want to find ways to continue pushing sales of your services on this forum.

That would be an interesting assumption which would not hold next to the fact that I suggested not one, but several actually feasible approaches that I would be completely uninvolved with.

If you care about providing info that could help the members so much, do you think continuing this argument in defense of that ridiculousness instead of, for example, inquiring about details for the real life feasible approaches that I have mentioned in this very thread is the approach to take?

 

[Millard]

That would be an interesting assumption which would not hold next to the fact that I suggested not one, but several actually feasible approaches that I would be completely uninvolved with.

If you care about providing info that could help the members so much, do you think continuing this argument in defense of that ridiculousness instead of, for example, inquiring about details for the real life feasible approaches that I have mentioned in this very thread is the approach to take?

Most definitely. You are free to provide as many alternatives to your services as possible. That we can agree upon.