Who keeps most gains from Tren?

[Deacon]

This is a false statement.

I think you are confusing hyperplasia with hypertrophy.
Gear does not do this and will not RAISE your set point.
I think this is just wishfull thinking.

Hyperplasia can happen with IGF-1 and HGH, even still I think it is minimal.
I have tried both of those but not together.

There is only so much muscle you can hold onto with the amounts of hormones you have.

using gear will raise your set point without a doubt - come on and get a clue - how do you think guys gain over their genetic limit if steroids didnt do this?

 

[DocJ]

This is a false statement.

Gear does not do this and will not RAISE your set point.
I think this is just wishfull thinking.

A lot of very respected people in our "field" of study would strongly disagree.

 

[DonkeyKong]

gear actually can inc. number of sattelitte cells in muscle...

 

[hackskii]

A lot of very respected people in our "field" of study would strongly disagree.

I am sure they would disagree.
There is no medical evidence to suggest that this set point goes higher than normal.

Steroids (not IGF-1 or HGH) do not produce hyperplasia, so what set point are you talking about.
You dont get an increase in muscle fibers, you only get hypertrophy (size).

So you mean to tell me two guys same size and weight both trained and one used gear and the other didnt the guy that used will be bigger, stronger than the guy that didnt after they both had a layoff?
What a joke, thats BS.
Wishfull thinking at most.

You will not keep more gains than your body can support with its natural hormones.
Does this so called set point raise your natural testosterone levels after you come off?
In fact they can be below par, which will end up with some losses.

Hey if gear raised your setpoint then comming off with no PCT and shutdown for a year would this lower your set point?

My brother had low test levels for 1 year after a failed Deca cycle.
Wouldnt this lower his set point with test levels of a woman?
It didnt, once his levels returned he was fine.

I am an Identical twin, we both train together and do the same lifts, we both have the same type of dieting/eating habbits.
I have had probably 10 cycles and he just 1 (remember the failed one?), guess what we are the same size now that I am off the gear.

I would love for just one person to give me some study that suggests you are correct, just one.
Maybe one of these experts that DocJ talks about will post one
Haaaa Haaaaa

 

[hackskii]

gear actually can inc. number of sattelitte cells in muscle...

So does lifting weights without gear.

 

[DocJ]

I would love for just one person to give me some study that suggests you are correct, just one.
Maybe one of these experts that DocJ talks about will post one
Haaaa Haaaaa

You're correct, there's no research that suggests a general increase in set point. I can appreciate sticking to what the science says but everyone who's been in this game awhile knows that real life practice doesn't always follow these rules. If you think that someone who cycled for 10 years or more and then came off would be the same size after a few years clean as he would've if he trained naturally the whole time, you're crazy.

 

[GGR678]

using gear will raise your set point without a doubt - come on and get a clue - how do you think guys gain over their genetic limit if steroids didnt do this?

It might raise it by a tiny bit but thats all, if you trained naturally for 10 years and bench 400, squat 550 and weigh 220 at 10% body fat you might jump up to 225 at 10 BF and a 415 bench, 575 squat...after juicing for 5 years and then stopping.......then after 2-3 years that is all you will keep, not something to write home about.

 

[hackskii]

How can you maintain more muscle than your body can hold on to naturally with your natural test levels?

The body does not like anabolism.
It will make countermeasures to combat what you are doing.
The body loves homeostasis.

Sure protein supports lean muscle but without testosterone how is the body to stay in positive nitrogen balance?

I think having a good body is great, I do think it can be done naturally, I also believe with a good diet you can maintain or gain lean muscle mass and also lose bodyfat.
20 years down the road you will still be looking good if you train and eat right, keeping the glucagon ratio to insulin in check.

Even if there is a raised set point (which I dont see) can the AAS user still use 20 years down the road with no negative health risks like the natural person?
Where is the set point then?

 

[Zaven]

You mean to tell me that people still believe that you can keep most all your gains after coming off cycle......that's hillarious

So what did I do wrong to lose all my cycle gains..?..Did I train like a pussy..?

Or was it because the amount of circulating test and aas was much lower and in insufficient amounts in order to keep the nutrient uptake at suffice levels in order to maintain the new muscle fiber size that was gained on cycle..????...I think so.....things that make you go HMMMMMM..

 

[Bigkarch]

premier where are you bro..

 

[stevemac]

You mean to tell me that people still believe that you can keep most all your gains after coming off cycle......that's hillarious

So what did I do wrong to lose all my cycle gains..?..Did I train like a pussy..?

Or was it because the amount of circulating test and aas was much lower and in insufficient amounts in order to keep the nutrient uptake at suffice levels in order to maintain the new muscle fiber size that was gained on cycle..????...I think so.....things that make you go HMMMMMM..

well for one it depends on the drug used, yes i beieve some steroids are better for keeping gains post cycle. after cycle it depends on trainign and diet. just my opinion.

 

[jasthace]

You would think that with all the experiance of all the individuals that have contributed to this thread,that there would be a clear answer to this basic question about keeping gains,post cycle.But the class is divided,so given that no one has any reason to lie for personal gain ,then surely it must be concluded that each persons body reacts differently in its ability to keeps gains.Perhaps other growth factors are involved?

 

[Finest]

You would think that with all the experiance of all the individuals that have contributed to this thread,that there would be a clear answer to this basic question about keeping gains,post cycle.But the class is divided,so given that no one has any reason to lie for personal gain ,then surely it must be concluded that each persons body reacts differently in its ability to keeps gains.Perhaps other growth factors are involved?

Half the people here are dedicated to lifting and make it a lifestyle. The other half, half-asses their diet/PCT/training/etc and loses their gains shortly after their cycles.

 

[PreMier]

Half the people here are dedicated to lifting and make it a lifestyle. The other half, half-asses their diet/PCT/training/etc and loses their gains shortly after their cycles.

So what is your point son??? Bottom line get off steroids for a few years and then tell me you kept more than 5% of your gains.

 

[MANWHORE]

Man i don't have time to read all the BS and i forget what i wrote about this subject .. All i will say is that there are more Hormons other than IGF and HGH which increase hyperplasia .. DHT,Estrogen,HGH .. AHHH got yah LOL .. OK point being .. AAS will raise your natural limits .. Muscle memory is all that is needed to do this if nothing else does .. If Dorian Yates ever decided to train again,he will easily pass his natural limits .. By NATURAL i mean his natural limits before he ever picked up a weight .... AND if Hack is right and AAS doesn't increase natural limits,no one will ever know because i say most will not make it to their natural limits before using AAS .. I have seen it with my own eyes .. A friend of mine who was in the Corp with me was about 225 and pretty damn solid .. I would say he was in the range of about 12% BF .. Well he was barely training at the time we met and couldn't possibly use AAS because one of the officers in our unit had it out for him .. My friend was dating a girl this guy liked and just mentioned the if he ever thought my friend was using AAS,he would have him tested .. THe guy was pretty cool with me and i didn't picture him being like that but i knew my friend was telling the truth .. Anyway,my friend was clean for a few years and was in the gym about 2X/week with very low intensity .. i know because he came one time i was there and i saw his workouts .. He was actually getting jealous of me because i was blowing up from the Sost i was using .. Just by looking at him,i thought that wasn't far from his natural muscular weight but when he showed me a pic of when he started training and using gear,i could not believe my eyes .. He was literally,a STICK at a height of about 5'11" ... He was embarrassed of the pic but he showed me because i was his good friend .. He was actually the one who taught me a little about AAS back in 91 when i only knew a little from the streets .. He had the ananbolic reference .. i think that was it by Bill Philliphs .. What i am basically trying to get at is,anything is possible and if someone says it happened,i really like to believe them .. If i don't know them that good,i usually just flame the shit out of them,then make friends with them,and start homebrewing dirt cheap for them .. I'm too fucking nice,i have to stop promissing shit .. I guess stopping those Roxys might be a start .. .. Get ready for my pics boys,because in a few months,i really believe i will be ready for the Mr. O .. lol .. OK so maybe the Jr. Mr. O

 

[Beefy]

LMAO at MW!!

 

[hackskii]

Man i don't have time to read all the BS and i forget what i wrote about this subject .. All i will say is that there are more Hormons other than IGF and HGH which increase hyperplasia .. DHT,Estrogen,HGH .. AHHH got yah LOL .. OK point being .. AAS will raise your natural limits ..

First of all I have never ever heard DHT or estrogen caused hyperplasia.
This sounds like BS to me.
Sure DHT is 5 times as androgenic as testosterone but I really dont think it has the size implications of test compared to its strength and aggression applications.

We are talking about steroids here and IGF-1, and HGH are not in that catagory.

I was looking at old bodybuilders before and after pics yesterday and I saw no evidence ot support the above claim.

I was a skinny kid and lifted for over 28 years, I am not small by any means.
I do see many guys that come off gear then shrink down big time.
Most of those clowns quit working out.
Only to resurface back on cycle.

i have to show you the before and after pic of the pro, it was crazy. He looked beat up.

Weight lifting is a life style and I plan on doing it as long as I am alive.

 

[MANWHORE]

First of all I have never ever heard DHT or estrogen caused hyperplasia.
This sounds like BS to me.
Sure DHT is 5 times as androgenic as testosterone but I really dont think it has the size implications of test compared to its strength and aggression applications.

We are talking about steroids here and IGF-1, and HGH are not in that catagory.

I was looking at old bodybuilders before and after pics yesterday and I saw no evidence ot support the above claim.

I was a skinny kid and lifted for over 28 years, I am not small by any means.
I do see many guys that come off gear then shrink down big time.
Most of those clowns quit working out.
Only to resurface back on cycle.

i have to show you the before and after pic of the pro, it was crazy. He looked beat up.

Weight lifting is a life style and I plan on doing it as long as I am alive.

Yeah i see Dorian Yates got very small but i said my friend was training just very little .. even training very little will help keep gains from AAS .. to a point and if Dorian were to start natural i'm sure he would blow up pretty damn fast from muscle memory alone .. DHT is not as stimulating to the AR in muscle tissue which may be the reason it is not as good for size over Test but Test causes water and many count that as a gain .. i don't,as i like lean muscle .. get more pussy that way IMO .. If your personality isn't one of a shithead that is .. If you do a search i'm sure you will find plenty of DHT and E causing Hyperplasia .. No reason to keep E in cycle as it lowers SHBG .. ONly reason i see to keep it and not get crazy with Anti-Es is health and Hyperplasia .. E is the reason Test is known as being best for size over AAS like Tren .. Hyperplasia .. The E from Test increases the number cells,Tren being better and stonger binder of AR increase muscle size,and Progest from Tren lowering SHBG that E from Test increases .. So you see just a few reasons Test and Tren is a great stack .. Do we really know what happens in our bodies when we put these things in them,other than what the books,articles,and crazy people say? I don't think so which is why i say use it all .. high doses,different stacks,high doses LOL .. Just see for yourself .. BTW,i would give up 10 bottles of Test for one bottle of Tren .. OK i'll take 2 bottles of Tren .. O yeah shots today almost forgot .. Should i up the Tren 2 600/week from 400? Man i really want to but i will have to drink alot more water .. Nah let me just keep it at 400 and i should be good with the Drol,EQ and Test

 

[DocJ]

I believe Yates took a L-O-N-G time off after retiring.

 

[BRICK]

this has to set a record for the most posts. I created a monster It has deviated so many times from the original post.