tenpoundsleft
Member
If there were a God, he would have shown us mercy and killed this stupid thread long ago.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Why there almost certainly is No God!!
- Thread starter Desibaba
- Start date
Charlie Hebdo anniversary cover disrespects all faiths, Vatican newspaper says
Charlie Hebdo anniversary cover disrespects all faiths, Vatican newspaper says
Charlie Hebdo anniversary cover disrespects all faiths, Vatican newspaper says
“It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I’d rather not consider that).” Dropbox - Blueprints.pdf
Groundfighter
Member
hahahahaha^^^^^^^
Groundfighter
Member
Groundfighter
Member
Ok Dr. Scally. I humbly pick up the gauntlet you have thrown down on this one. I say to you that it requires much more faith to NOT believe in God than to believe. Let us start by remembering the impossibility of establishing universal negatives/positives. Random chance origins, the very skeleton of evolution, is grasping at straws. The old idea of tossing up a handful of pennies into the air and having them land in a perfect circle on the ground is appropriate. The number representing the odds of that happening, in the context of the “origin of species” and the origins of the universe, is itself almost impossible to calculate.
Recently I have been looking into the endocrine system, insulin specifically. Looking at "insulin oscillation" I was highly intrigued.
"The insulin oscillations are generated by pulsatile release of the hormone from the pancreas. Insulin originates from beta cells located in the islets of Langerhans. Since each islet contains up to 2000 beta cells and there are one million islets in the pancreas it is apparent that pulsatile secretion requires sophisticated synchronization both within and among the islets of Langerhans." (Wikipedia, "Insulin Oscillation")
This means that over 2 billions cells are perfectly orchestrated and working in unison to release fractions of a "pmol" every 5 mins. Just a slight deviance in either direction could prove fatal. I liken this to the location of our sun. It is perfectly distanced from our planet. Move it just a few miles (outside of the ~93million) and we either have another "ice age" or we simply get incinerated. And it has been just so perfectly spaced from us for the at least 14,000 years (creation story) or million/billion years (evolution), despite the few degrees F/C that we complain about in "global warming."
Outside of creationism, within atheism/evolution/humanism, there is always the undercurrent of "man IS God" or "god-like." To that I say, until the day when one can completely and fully comprehend his own physiology, down to the cellular and atomic level, including every structure, system, and interaction, he is in no way A GOD and lacks the authority and wisdom to say with absolute certainty that the Creator God does not exist.
We are prideful beings. Man does not wish to relinquish any of his perceived power and control to another, including some invisible God. Man has an innate drive to have dominion, to subdue, and to lead. So admit inferiority on any level is to humiliate oneself. This is counter-intuitive, but then again an Almighty God does not think like a mortal man. We can seek to comfort and fill ourselves with knowledge, pleasure, power/control, and possessions, but there will always remain a void. Some have referred to the "God gene." It has been shown on EEGs that when religious people pray/meditate, there is an unusual and powerful response in the physiology of the brain. This is not the same effect achieved by simply "emptying the mind" as many do in an attempt to "meditate." There is a powerful extra-sensory communication occurring.
Things that cannot be explained away by science/evolution is the very fact that we are spiritual/emotional beings. A simple example would be, why does a person ever "deny himself” anything that is pleasurable and immediately safe? If “instinct” says to pursue something, and previous experience doesn’t deter him, why would be refrain from indulging? How would you rationalize “greater good” on a biological level? Forget survival. I am speaking of consciousness. How does a mere 6 foot tall pile of chemicals have awareness and personality and preferences and shades of feelings? If God does not exist, than we could say there is no “supernatural” dimension. If all is “natural,” or organic, then we have no need to love ourselves, our neighbors, and even perfect strangers. How do you preclude morals? Even if my own freedom is not in danger by defying a system of morals, as if I walked into a store and shot the cashier to steal the money in the register, risking jail time or worse, I still have a certain bias against such behavior. I could in a remote village, lacking any formal law, and still be hesitant to kill a man in cold blood, just because it seemed convenient.
It is true, I confess, that hypocrisy exists in all faiths. No follower of any religion is totally consistent in how he lives in comparison to what he professes. Then there are some (eg, the Catholic Church during the crusades; ISIS now) who carry around the name of God in vain. They claim to be doing God a service meanwhile contradicting the very teachings of God. There IS delusion. There IS selfish motive. But there are also those who genuinely show their faith by their lives (and indirectly by their deaths – NOT suicides). I believe in God. I also know that many times I fall short by not “practicing what I preach” or even what I believe. It is only humility, oftentimes painful, that allows me to make this distinction and admission. If you were to read the Bible cover to cover, you would see that the picture painted of all the holy men of God in it, is not one of fantasy but of reality. Not only does it reject the idea that any man is infallible but strongly points to his weaknesses despite his many great strengths. Religion is not intended to be some abstract idea, posed as an afterthought or alternative way of living. It is very much hard-wired into our very fabric, into what it means to be human. If every man only lived for himself, we would become instinct very quickly. Even if every man only lived for his own family, the same would result. The smaller our view of our personal roles within the universal family of mankind, the more predatory, antagonistic, and consuming we necessarily become. Either we can live for “self” or we can live for something “greater than self.” Rarely would one base their existence on something “less than self.”
The harder we try to deny the existence of God, the more overwhelmed and frustrated we become. It is common knowledge that the more we learn, the more we know we DON’T know. Knowledge, at a certain point, has the effect of diminishing returns. It seems almost humorous that one would claim not to have a Creator, and therefore no “purpose” for existing, yet devote their entire life to defining how life began and in the process attempt to MANUFACTURE a “purpose” or “reason for being.” Why not save yourself the time and effort and START with a purposeful creation? Why not shift your faith from something that never fully satisifies, and never will, to something that is already available to satisfy? Religion is in many ways like science. It requires initiation, indoctrination, systematic desensitization, and practice. I understand that. Outside of that, it is only simple pride that creates the great rift between man and God. I never want to admit I am wrong, insufficient, or accountable. Then when I do make those admissions, it is usually for some ulterior motive.
Recently I have been looking into the endocrine system, insulin specifically. Looking at "insulin oscillation" I was highly intrigued.
"The insulin oscillations are generated by pulsatile release of the hormone from the pancreas. Insulin originates from beta cells located in the islets of Langerhans. Since each islet contains up to 2000 beta cells and there are one million islets in the pancreas it is apparent that pulsatile secretion requires sophisticated synchronization both within and among the islets of Langerhans." (Wikipedia, "Insulin Oscillation")
This means that over 2 billions cells are perfectly orchestrated and working in unison to release fractions of a "pmol" every 5 mins. Just a slight deviance in either direction could prove fatal. I liken this to the location of our sun. It is perfectly distanced from our planet. Move it just a few miles (outside of the ~93million) and we either have another "ice age" or we simply get incinerated. And it has been just so perfectly spaced from us for the at least 14,000 years (creation story) or million/billion years (evolution), despite the few degrees F/C that we complain about in "global warming."
Outside of creationism, within atheism/evolution/humanism, there is always the undercurrent of "man IS God" or "god-like." To that I say, until the day when one can completely and fully comprehend his own physiology, down to the cellular and atomic level, including every structure, system, and interaction, he is in no way A GOD and lacks the authority and wisdom to say with absolute certainty that the Creator God does not exist.
We are prideful beings. Man does not wish to relinquish any of his perceived power and control to another, including some invisible God. Man has an innate drive to have dominion, to subdue, and to lead. So admit inferiority on any level is to humiliate oneself. This is counter-intuitive, but then again an Almighty God does not think like a mortal man. We can seek to comfort and fill ourselves with knowledge, pleasure, power/control, and possessions, but there will always remain a void. Some have referred to the "God gene." It has been shown on EEGs that when religious people pray/meditate, there is an unusual and powerful response in the physiology of the brain. This is not the same effect achieved by simply "emptying the mind" as many do in an attempt to "meditate." There is a powerful extra-sensory communication occurring.
Things that cannot be explained away by science/evolution is the very fact that we are spiritual/emotional beings. A simple example would be, why does a person ever "deny himself” anything that is pleasurable and immediately safe? If “instinct” says to pursue something, and previous experience doesn’t deter him, why would be refrain from indulging? How would you rationalize “greater good” on a biological level? Forget survival. I am speaking of consciousness. How does a mere 6 foot tall pile of chemicals have awareness and personality and preferences and shades of feelings? If God does not exist, than we could say there is no “supernatural” dimension. If all is “natural,” or organic, then we have no need to love ourselves, our neighbors, and even perfect strangers. How do you preclude morals? Even if my own freedom is not in danger by defying a system of morals, as if I walked into a store and shot the cashier to steal the money in the register, risking jail time or worse, I still have a certain bias against such behavior. I could in a remote village, lacking any formal law, and still be hesitant to kill a man in cold blood, just because it seemed convenient.
It is true, I confess, that hypocrisy exists in all faiths. No follower of any religion is totally consistent in how he lives in comparison to what he professes. Then there are some (eg, the Catholic Church during the crusades; ISIS now) who carry around the name of God in vain. They claim to be doing God a service meanwhile contradicting the very teachings of God. There IS delusion. There IS selfish motive. But there are also those who genuinely show their faith by their lives (and indirectly by their deaths – NOT suicides). I believe in God. I also know that many times I fall short by not “practicing what I preach” or even what I believe. It is only humility, oftentimes painful, that allows me to make this distinction and admission. If you were to read the Bible cover to cover, you would see that the picture painted of all the holy men of God in it, is not one of fantasy but of reality. Not only does it reject the idea that any man is infallible but strongly points to his weaknesses despite his many great strengths. Religion is not intended to be some abstract idea, posed as an afterthought or alternative way of living. It is very much hard-wired into our very fabric, into what it means to be human. If every man only lived for himself, we would become instinct very quickly. Even if every man only lived for his own family, the same would result. The smaller our view of our personal roles within the universal family of mankind, the more predatory, antagonistic, and consuming we necessarily become. Either we can live for “self” or we can live for something “greater than self.” Rarely would one base their existence on something “less than self.”
The harder we try to deny the existence of God, the more overwhelmed and frustrated we become. It is common knowledge that the more we learn, the more we know we DON’T know. Knowledge, at a certain point, has the effect of diminishing returns. It seems almost humorous that one would claim not to have a Creator, and therefore no “purpose” for existing, yet devote their entire life to defining how life began and in the process attempt to MANUFACTURE a “purpose” or “reason for being.” Why not save yourself the time and effort and START with a purposeful creation? Why not shift your faith from something that never fully satisifies, and never will, to something that is already available to satisfy? Religion is in many ways like science. It requires initiation, indoctrination, systematic desensitization, and practice. I understand that. Outside of that, it is only simple pride that creates the great rift between man and God. I never want to admit I am wrong, insufficient, or accountable. Then when I do make those admissions, it is usually for some ulterior motive.
If you truly are fond of atheism, than you shouldn't be offended by the idea that someone might mug you, sleep with your wife, and kill your children for no reason. After all, who are YOU to decide what is right and wrong? If there are no morals, and therefore no need of conscience, then "everything goes" is the norm, and you should live in constant crippling fear because everyone you encounter WILL be out to get you in some way.
I'm just sayin'...
Groundfighter
Member
Religion was created when the first conman met the first fool.
Groundfighter
Member
I am not trying to play "devil's advocate" here, but in your argument, the terms "hallucinations" and "insanity"/"religion" are arbitrary and relative terms. Right now, you're resorting to "mud-slinging." This is sort of what Betrand Russell restorted to in his interview "Why are you not a Christian." This is not politics. I am not trying to win votes for myself or even for my "cause" (God). I simply present the facts and let you make a free will decision for yourself. Dr. Scally, for example, looks at both sides of the argument with comparable focus. That is commendable. That shows open-mindedness, even if he never decides never to dive into religion with complete abandonment.
So if you have particular issues against God/religion, present them. We will discuss them. We can "agree to disagree." Even God Himself doesn't force people to believe. Though there are consequences presented both for belief and unbelief, the final decision to believe is left up to the individual.
So do you have any concerns you would like to address?
So if you have particular issues against God/religion, present them. We will discuss them. We can "agree to disagree." Even God Himself doesn't force people to believe. Though there are consequences presented both for belief and unbelief, the final decision to believe is left up to the individual.
So do you have any concerns you would like to address?
Groundfighter
Member
You need to back up and read more of this thread. I posted a YouTube clip from both Christopher Hitchens and Michael Shurmer who explain my thoughts exactly.
Groundfighter
Member
Groundfighter
Member
Groundfighter
Member
My last comment for the day is this, no religion can get past 2 easy words " Prove It ". Have a good day RaveHead.
Since ancient times there have been servants, indentured servants, slaves, etc. The slave/master relationship was not always bad. Many times it was mutually beneficial. Many times people assumed the role of servants/slaves as a matter or survival. A source of provision for themselves and their families.
Outside of that "professional" relationship, evil existed. People took advantage of this through physical/verbal abuse, as your last photo depicts. The problem is ultimately evil inside the heart of one man being expressed through his actions toward another person. God originally created Adam/Eve (in the Biblical account) as sinless people. They were also given the freedom to choose to love/obey God and live in the absence of evil and its consequences or to disobey God and be separated from close fellowship with Him. Of course we know that Adam/Eve chose to disobey God and so reaped the consequences. God did not intervene in the Garden of Eden, because to do so would be to take back the divine privilege He gave us in the first place, to CHOOSE. All throughout the Bible, God gave the different peoples choices. Sometimes they chose to disobey God. And many of those times of disobedience God overlooked, in His mercy. Others of those times, He intervened in a major way - sometimes causing wars from other nations, ,or deaths of those people, or enslavement/captivity, etc. If God blasted us every time we sinned, there would be no one left on earth. His mercy retrains His absolute justice.
There are reasons we do know concerning slavery/terrorism, etc.: sometimes a people had been willfully obstinate against God for a long time - He wanted to purify/purge that people, so He sent great calamity, and sometimes it was effective in bringing the people back to a right relationship with Himself; sometimes God allows us to suffer great physical/emotional trials to equip us to be able to reach out to others who go through similar situations - He may allow me to be raped or molested but then once I have been delivered from that, I can counsel others who go through it; sometimes it's simply the work of Satan, who God cast out of heaven due to rebellion - Satan was granted dominion on the earth and possesses a great deal of authority here. Look at Jesus. He was sinless. He was the Son of God. Yet God did not intervene when people were beating him to death and nailing Him to a cross. There was a greater purpose in the mind of God - to be able to redeem all of mankind through the death of His Son.
On the surface, evil is only hurtful and serves no good purpose. To those who have an open mind, evil can serve as a "gateway" to a greater good. God never "causes" a man to sin. God never "condones" evil. Many times God WILL actually STOP evil from happening. If He didn't, this world would be a lot worse off than we see it now. God is sovereign and has the final word in all matters. We knows the beginning from the end and sees every angle in every situation. It's like looking down from a hilltop. You can see for miles around. When you are on level ground, your vision is very limited. We as humans, often only have a horizontal view of situations. We often only relate to situations as they "feel" or as we think they should be, in our limited understanding.
Outside of that "professional" relationship, evil existed. People took advantage of this through physical/verbal abuse, as your last photo depicts. The problem is ultimately evil inside the heart of one man being expressed through his actions toward another person. God originally created Adam/Eve (in the Biblical account) as sinless people. They were also given the freedom to choose to love/obey God and live in the absence of evil and its consequences or to disobey God and be separated from close fellowship with Him. Of course we know that Adam/Eve chose to disobey God and so reaped the consequences. God did not intervene in the Garden of Eden, because to do so would be to take back the divine privilege He gave us in the first place, to CHOOSE. All throughout the Bible, God gave the different peoples choices. Sometimes they chose to disobey God. And many of those times of disobedience God overlooked, in His mercy. Others of those times, He intervened in a major way - sometimes causing wars from other nations, ,or deaths of those people, or enslavement/captivity, etc. If God blasted us every time we sinned, there would be no one left on earth. His mercy retrains His absolute justice.
There are reasons we do know concerning slavery/terrorism, etc.: sometimes a people had been willfully obstinate against God for a long time - He wanted to purify/purge that people, so He sent great calamity, and sometimes it was effective in bringing the people back to a right relationship with Himself; sometimes God allows us to suffer great physical/emotional trials to equip us to be able to reach out to others who go through similar situations - He may allow me to be raped or molested but then once I have been delivered from that, I can counsel others who go through it; sometimes it's simply the work of Satan, who God cast out of heaven due to rebellion - Satan was granted dominion on the earth and possesses a great deal of authority here. Look at Jesus. He was sinless. He was the Son of God. Yet God did not intervene when people were beating him to death and nailing Him to a cross. There was a greater purpose in the mind of God - to be able to redeem all of mankind through the death of His Son.
On the surface, evil is only hurtful and serves no good purpose. To those who have an open mind, evil can serve as a "gateway" to a greater good. God never "causes" a man to sin. God never "condones" evil. Many times God WILL actually STOP evil from happening. If He didn't, this world would be a lot worse off than we see it now. God is sovereign and has the final word in all matters. We knows the beginning from the end and sees every angle in every situation. It's like looking down from a hilltop. You can see for miles around. When you are on level ground, your vision is very limited. We as humans, often only have a horizontal view of situations. We often only relate to situations as they "feel" or as we think they should be, in our limited understanding.
Groundfighter
Member
I appreciate the debate, no hard feelings bro.
This image implies that God is "out of control" or "not in control." He is always in control.
