I'd Rather Die Standing Than Live on My Knees - Charlie Hebdo Pays the Price for Free Speech

There's a lot of intelligent discussion in this thread, I like it. I've avoided making any political statement since being at meso as I think politics, religion etc are obviously topics that can create drama and after all we have enough drama here already :confused:
I just need to state that we're not all from the US so our take on what has occurred over the years, and our world view, I guarantee is somewhat different to many here.
one thing I think we can agree on is that shit is going to get real before it settles
 
There's a lot of intelligent discussion in this thread, I like it. I've avoided making any political statement since being at meso as I think politics, religion etc are obviously topics that can create drama and after all we have enough drama here already :confused:
I just need to state that we're not all from the US so our take on what has occurred over the years, and our world view, I guarantee is somewhat different to many here.
one thing I think we can agree on is that shit is going to get real before it settles
You should always share your point of view, IMHO. Especially if you live outside the US. Another perceptive is good for educating one another. This forum is a community and that is what community is about. Not everyone is going to like what you say, as long as things are stated respectively, it shouldn't matter. Once again, IMO.
 
You should always share your point of view, IMHO. Especially if you live outside the US. Another perceptive is good for educating one another. This forum is a community and that is what community is about. Not everyone is going to like what you say, as long as things are stated respectively, it shouldn't matter. Once again, IMO.
Oh yeah what if I said that anyone who plays American football is a big pussy for wearing all that protective gear. Or that anyone who eats sandwiches with peanut butter and some form of jelly spread is fucking crazy :eek:
Oh you said respectfully... Not that I think these things of course ;):D
 
Oh yeah what if I said that anyone who plays American football is a big pussy for wearing all that protective gear. Or that anyone who eats sandwiches with peanut butter and some form of jelly spread is fucking crazy :eek:
Oh you said respectfully... Not that I think these things of course ;):D
I agree about the football! lol. I am play/watch Hockey. I think they need to reduce at least shoulder pad sizes.

Don't mess with my PB&J's!!!
 
Have a look at some of the football firms across the continent. In the past they were used as a front for rights wing extremism, often reported in the media as hooliganism. They have quietened down in recent times, but moves afoot to increase the numbers
Some are quiet but I have a good friend who is a Brit and just got back from England. He was telling me there are a lot of grumblings that the Premier League doesn't have enough English players too global. He noted that the nationalist front is alive and well there.
 
The good and the bad of Charlie Hebdo.

Je suis Charlie vs. Je ne suis pas Charlie.

What everyone gets wrong about Charlie Hebdo and racism
I don't buy this at all. His target audience isn't that sophisticated, and he was well aware of that. The average reader took those cartoons at face value, and there was ample feedback to show that. If his cartoons were "misunderstood" it was an intentional misdirection on his part.
 
I didn't say it was rational and normal to discriminate against and fear all Muslims. I didn't mention discriminate at all. I said it was rational and normal to fear Islam because it's an ideology that commands its followers to slay and subjugate the unbelievers, and, unfortunately, there are more than enough followers that are slaying and subjugating unbelievers to make the fear rational and normal.

I'm not in favor of discriminating against anybody based on the actions of a few. But at the same time, taking on this problem requires that one be honest and admit that there is only one religious group that is currently slaughtering thousands of innocent men, women and children in its name and it's not Christian extremists. It is Islam.

For a whole bunch of theological reasons that I won't bore you with here, I do not believe that Islam, in its current form, is compatible with Western liberal democracy. In fact, I do not believe that Islam is capable of peacefully coexisting with any other ideology. At its very heart, Islam is a supremacist ideology.

That said, I don't know of a solution to Europe's problem - or at least one that is acceptable. My fear is that an acceptable solution doesn't exist, and that the lack of an acceptable solution will eventually lead to the implementation of an unacceptable one. And it will be bloody.

Religions do not tend to be unchanging monolithic entities. They adapt and change. At any given point in time their may be multiple versions or strains of a particular religion. A single religion can have various interpretations, many of which may be incompatible with each other. From what I've seen, people conveniently tend to make religion whatever they want it to be.

Why do you think Islam is different?

Just because Western liberal democracies and religious pluralism have not prevailed in predominantly Islamic cultures does not necessarily mean Islam is fundamentally incompatible with it. A similar argument could have been made about other religions before they encountered Western democracy. But the religions adapted.

Why are you convinced Islam is different?

But can it survive the changing demographics? I don't believe it can. France's birth rate dropped below 2 children per woman last year - the rate at which population declines. Still higher than that of Italy and Germany, but it seems to be moving in the same direction as the rest of Europe. On the other hand, France's Muslim population will continue to grow. Predictions are that Muslim population growth will eventually slow too, but will it slow enough and quickly enough to save laïcité

I don't know. I'm a fan of laïcité in France. I hope to see it preserved. But there are a lot of forces working against it.
 
I don't buy this at all. His target audience isn't that sophisticated, and he was well aware of that. The average reader took those cartoons at face value, and there was ample feedback to show that. If his cartoons were "misunderstood" it was an intentional misdirection on his part.
I don't know the demographics of Charlie's readership. But I do know that Charlie didn't have much of an audience at all. It struggled to sell 30,000 copies a week. Consider that today it probably sold more copies (5,000,000) in a few hours than it did in all of the past 5 years combined.

Still, context is very important. And I think a lot of non-French readers simply don't understand the context. It doesn't mean there is no racism, xenophobia, misogyny, etc nor that it doesn't appeal to readers who support those viewpoints.

Here is another article about cultural context of Charlie Hebdo with emphasis on its anti-clerical, anti-religion, anti-extremism and pro-secularism agenda:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/10/1356802/-Charlie-Hebdo-some-context
 
Do you have a link to how the vote broke down by demographics in Marseille's 7th sector? It would be interesting to see what percentage of Muslims voted for Ravier.
Sorry, I don't. My information came from the same CSM article.

I thought it was interesting that the Houellebecq interview you linked touched on the "schizophrenic situation" of Muslims potentially voting for National Front candidates:

Well, Marine Le Pen strikes me as a realistic candidate for 2022—even for 2017 … The Muslim party is more … That’s the heart of the matter, really. I tried to put myself in the place of a Muslim, and I realized that, in reality, they are in a totally schizophrenic situation. Because overall Muslims aren’t interested in economic issues, their big issues are what we nowadays call societal issues. On these issues, obviously, they are very far from the left and even further from the Green Party. Just think of gay marriage and you’ll see what I mean, but the same is true across the board. And one doesn’t really see why they’d vote for the right, much less for the extreme right, which utterly rejects them. So if a Muslim wants to vote, what’s he supposed to do? The truth is, he’s in an impossible situation. He has no representation whatsoever. It would be wrong to say that this religion has no political consequences—it does. So does Catholicism, for that matter, even if the Catholics have been more or less marginalized. For those reasons, it seems to me, a Muslim party makes a lot of sense.

Source: http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2015/01/02/scare-tactics-michel-houellebecq-on-his-new-book/
 
I don't buy this at all. His target audience isn't that sophisticated, and he was well aware of that. The average reader took those cartoons at face value, and there was ample feedback to show that. If his cartoons were "misunderstood" it was an intentional misdirection on his part.


Lost in translation: Charlie Hebdo, free speech and the unilingual left
Leigh Phillips
January 13, 2015

https://ricochet.media/en/292/lost-in-translation-charlie-hebdo-free-speech-and-the-unilingual-left



On Charlie Hebdo: A letter to my British friends
11 janvier 2015 | Par Olivier Tonneau

http://blogs.mediapart.fr/blog/olivier-tonneau/110115/charlie-hebdo-letter-my-british-friends


Dear friends,

Three days ago, a horrid assault was perpetrated against the French weekly Charlie Hebdo, who had published caricatures of Mohamed, by men who screamed that they had “avenged the prophet”. A wave of compassion followed but apparently died shortly afterward and all sorts of criticism started pouring down the web against Charlie Hebdo, who was described as islamophobic, racist and even sexist. Countless other comments stated that Muslims were being ostracized and finger-pointed. In the background lurked a view of France founded upon the “myth” of laïcité, defined as the strict restriction of religion to the private sphere, but rampantly islamophobic - with passing reference to the law banning the integral veil. One friend even mentioned a division of the French left on a presumed “Muslim question”.


As a Frenchman and a radical left militant at home and here in UK, I was puzzled and even shocked by these comments and would like, therefore, to give you a clear exposition of what my left-wing French position is on these matters.
 
laïcité, defined as the strict restriction of religion to the private sphere, but rampantly islamophobic
Laïcité is opposed to ALL religions in the public sphere. To single out Islam (with that word that you don't like) really mischaracterizes the concept. Islam, Catholicism, Judaism, Protestantism... It doesn't matter - it's equally opposed. Granted, how it is carried out in actual practice may differ.
 
Laïcité is opposed to ALL religions in the public sphere. To single out Islam (with that word that you don't like) really mischaracterizes the concept. Islam, Catholicism, Judaism, Protestantism... It doesn't matter - it's equally opposed. Granted, how it is carried out in actual practice may differ.

I didn't mean to highlight that line. I just wanted to post the first paragraphs of the article.
 
I didn't mean to highlight that line. I just wanted to post the first paragraphs of the article.

It was interesting to see the author say laïcité was Islamophobic but defend Charlie as NOT being islamophobic or racist. Still, it was very insightful about the importance of context in evaluating Charlie Hebdo. As I mentioned earlier, context is very important.

Finally, Charlie Hebdo was an opponent of all forms of organized religions, in the old-school anarchist sense: Ni Dieu, ni maître! They ridiculed the pope, orthodox Jews and Muslims in equal measure and with the same biting tone. They took ferocious stances against the bombings of Gaza. Even if their sense of humour was apparently inacceptable to English minds, please take my word for it: it fell well within the French tradition of satire – and after all was only intended for a French audience. It is only by reading or seeing it out of context that some cartoons appear as racist or islamophobic. Charlie Hebdo also continuously denounced the pledge of minorities and campaigned relentlessly for all illegal immigrants to be given permanent right of stay. I hope this helps you understand that if you belong to the radical left, you have lost precious friends and allies.

...

...we should not be fooled by the fundamentalists who claim to restore Islam in its original purity. The ideology they promote – literal, violent, legalistic, narrow-minded, other-worldly – is a radical novelty in the history of Islam. It is the dramatic perversion of a culture. So how did such a perversion take place? This is where the story gets complex – more complex than that of the West vs. the Muslim world.
...

Let us be clear: fundamentalism is not caused by immigration from Muslim countries. It is very easy to demonstrate this: Muslims migrated in France as early as the 1950s and the issue of fundamentalism only arose in the last fifteen years.
...

France has a long tradition of secular Islam, fully compatible with the laws of the Republic, but at war with fundamentalists.
...

I often read in the English press, or hear from British friends, that French laïcité is a “foundational myth” – as if France lived under the illusion that religion could be eradicated once and for all. This has nothing to do with laïcité properly defined. Laïcité does not deny anybody the right to express their religious beliefs, but it aims to found society on a political contract that transcends religious beliefs which, as a result, become mere private affairs.
...

And yet perhaps this narrative (which, be reassured, is nearing its end) helps you understand what Charlie Hebdo was trying to do. It was precisely trying to defend the republican ideals whereby it is not religion that determines your commitments but justice. It mocked not the religion that Muslims have quietly inherited from their fathers and forefathers, but the aggressive fundamentalism that demands that everybody defines themselves – ethically, politically, geographically – in religious terms. It stressed that a religion that lays a claim to ruling a society is dangerous and, yes, ridiculous, whichever religion it may be – Islam is no sacred cow.

...

This is the difficult argument I am having with my French friends: we are all aware of the fact that the attack on Charlie Hebdo will be exploited by the Far right, and that our government will use it as an opportunity to create a false unanimity within a deeply divided society. We have already heard the prime minister Manuel Valls announce that France was “at war with Terror” – and it horrifies me to recognize the words used by George W. Bush. We are all trying to find the narrow path – defending the Republic against the twin threats of fundamentalism and fascism (and fundamentalism is a form of fascism). But I still believe that the best way to do this is to fight for our Republican ideals. Equality is meaningless in times of austerity. Liberty is but hypocrisy when elements of the French population are being routinely discriminated. But fraternity is lost when religion trumps politics as the structuring principle of a society. Charlie Hebdo promoted equality, liberty and fraternity – they were part of the solution, not the problem.

 
Sign of the times and things to come. I do think this kind of action that is happening here in the states have a correlation to world events.
Maybe it's a good time to share this ->

"Ignore the headlines. The world is getting safer all the time."

It's an interview with one of the editors of "http://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Threat-Perception-National-Security-ebook/dp/B00OGQEZB4/ (A Dangerous World?: Threat Perception and U.S. National Security)".

The book was released by the Cato Institute and edited by Christopher Preble (Cato's vice president for defense and foreign policy studies,and John Mueller (Ohio State professor and Cato senior fellow).
 
The Cato Institute...I remember something about them and their founders, the Koch brothers. Can't put my finger on it, I just remember it wasn't good. Everybody has an agenda.
Course I do feel safer. What with all these new laws and regulations, I especially like the cameras, gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling.:)
 

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