665 reasons to not order from UncleZ

[biggerben69]

This is the second half of the PM Mike Arnold sent me....I don't want to hear how PM's are supposed to be kept that way. I normally agree with that,,,but not when it's a tactic to try and shut me up. And he gave me permission if I read it correctly.
By the way...I've heard the last sentence in his pm by a couple of females I've broken up with in the past...


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Mike Arnold Mike Arnold is offline
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Default truce
continued...

Lastly, I don't care of you show anyone this post. I don't need any enemies...I have had my share in the past from being a hot-head, and it caused me more problems than it was worth...so now I try to avoid it. Anyway, I would like to put this behind us. I understand that won't be possible if you still believe all the stuff you said about me, but I would like to start over.
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[CensoredBoardsSuck]

Why not? They've sent in pretty much the whole crew at this point, minus Chino..... Ol Chino's probably too busy making youtube vids.

We haven't heard from Shaggy, yet. I expect he'll be arriving momentarily.

Here's another endorsment from ol Mikey.

This is one thing about Z's gear that is far above average. There is a LOT of gear out there which gives anywhere from minor to severe PIP. I have been using only Z gear for some time now...and just to clarify, I have used every injectable Z makes many times, while always using 3-4 different injectables at a time. I have used each of these injectables over several different batches, which cancels out the possibility of getting a "good" batch.

The bottom line is this. I have not experienced ANY PIP, to ANY degree, with ANY of Z's injectables the ENTIRE time I have been using them. That is exceptional, as I have had numerous experiences using other manufacturers and I have NEVER gone such a long time using such a large variety of products without any pain whatsoever, as I have whenh using Z products. ]This doesn't have a damn thing to do with "building up" Z products as a rep...it is the truth, plain and simple.

No, it wouldn't have A THING to do with "building up Z products as a rep." It must be good stuff. Will it grow hair and cure the clap, too?

 

[Mike Arnold]

If Z's testing is so good, then why was he caught selling fakes? I guess his testing wasn't good enough for OLM.

I know nothing about this. Remember, I worked for the Uncle Z store about a year or less and then it closed. During that time, no one raised any such complaints about fakes. I am not denying the possibility that this could have happened...and I have also said that I know basically "nothing" about Z's history prior to my involvment with him. I have known him about 2 years or so. in adition, during that time, Z sold ONLY EP gear, various peptides, and GH. He was not selling gear from any other sources or any pharma-grade gear...at least not when I was with him.

Regardless, I still believe that at that time, his testing was probably the best around. For example, who else at that time was testing every single batch of GH and publically posting the results, using both reps and unaffiliated test subjects? There were at least 4-5 tests done for each batch. We even puclically annouced the results of a fake batch after a couple reps got labwork with negatve results. As you know, most UGL's would not have said a word. Even worse is that most UGL's never would have even tested their GH to make sure it was legit or proplery dosed. That's another thing...we didn't just post the results online rearding its legitimacy...we posted the actual numbers, so customers/potential customers could see if it was dosed proplery. WE even went a step further and had multiple people test each batch...because we knew that a single test was not proof of proper dosing, as not everyone will respodn the same with equal dosing. So, once we saw 4-5 test redsulst, we had a prettyy good idea of what we were delaing with.

Again, with gear, we would choose at least 3-4 unaffiliated members from the source board each month to test out different types of gear....not to mention the customers who bought gear and then posted the results themselves. We also conducted mass pec on every single AAS at various times...and gaveout other gear to customers so they coud lig theur experience. We have out a LOT of gear every month....and we didn't choose just any member from each source board...we chose the most reputable members from each board, so that no on would say we hand picked Z supporters.

All in all, out testing policies and procedures were very good, relatively speaking. No one will have perfect testing, as it would involve spending a ton of cash and a lot of time. In order to have perfect testing in place, every single batch of every single product would have to be tested through an independent 3rd party lab, with confirmable results made available to the public. Obviously, no UGL has ever come anywhere close to implementing such thorough testing procedures, but it would be awesome if UGL's could offer that type of gaurantee.

 

[Mike Arnold]

What's the solution then? You're saying that by your own estimate 90% of the noobs that post a good experience are probably schills, so what does that say about how these sources operate?
I've been around the boards for a long while now, the alternative to guys like me speaking up is a censored environment where only the good stays posted...... The ologys, the OLM, the Pro's, you're only going to get 1 side of the story and that's the side the sponsor wants the potential customers to see.

And does someone really need to order from a bad source to give an honest opinion of their service? If I know for a fact that someone sold faked gear and lied about it, but I didn't buy it, does that make my experiences in seeing it happen irrelevant?
If I say stay away from anything related to Dan Cote because I have seen him scam numerous people, and I can back that up, how is that not relevent? Do I need to join the list of people he's scammed to make what I'm saying valid?

I have no doubt that Z has delivered to far more people than he's fucked over, but I have been around and witnessed firsthand what he is capable of doing..... And he won't bat an eye about it.

I hear your point and agree. Of course, you should always use your own discernment and judgment regarding the content of any message. You should also be free to come to your own conclusion as you see fit, again, regarding the subject matter. However, there is a marked difference between the speaker and the message. While a message may be full of error, it does not mean the speaker is intentionally being dishonest. All of us, many times over, have been decieved throughout life. For this reason the speaker himself should be given the benefit of doubt, not being slandered on assumption alone, until either time or evidence shows him to be a liar or simply in error about what he believed.

 

[Millard]

Here are some open questions to everybody:

Do any company reps have credibility and under what conditions?

If not, what about former company reps? Do they ever have credibility?

Why? Why not?

 

[Mike Arnold]

I just checked one board you listed so far...IM. You're a mod there with a join date of 2011. Your 20 posts there are ALL PUSHING ONE OF THE SPONSORS THERE!
As a mod you have a vested interest in the sponsors. WTF? Are you gonna say that you've been on the boards forever and that you run shit behind the scenes and that;s why you have a join date of 2011? Gimme fucking break.
Also...your PM to me asking for a "Truce" is ridiculous.
I'll check the rest of the board you claim.
My boards are at the bottom of each post I make in my signature? What don't you see?
I've been a member at IM since 06. I've only made 20 0r 30 posts in the 7yrs as I don't care for boards like IM...or OLM...or PM and others. Quit it.
Say hi to TommyGunz for us......he's a lame. I know where that troll works out in OC, CA......He shut his trap after I found out.
Like a child he started to give me neg rep points or something over there. Said I was in his neighborhood and would neg rep me until I was gone? IS he gonna tell his mommy next? LAME.

LOL. I love how you twist stuff around, lie, and misrepresent the facts in order to make something sound other than what it is. You've been doing it since I got here and I am SURE others are seeing it. Unlike a lot of guys who won't post about stuff like this because they are worried someone like you will rip them open a new asshole, I enjoy it, as guys like you always dig their own grave.

Anyway, allow me to continue. Here is an example of your deceptiveness. You ask me to list the boards I am on so you can "confirm" what I am saying is true. So, I agree to do what you say. I list over half-dozen boards for you, but not ony that...I also list radio interviews, direct you to articles, tell you where I Mod and Super Mod, etc. I even told you which boards to check first, as thiose were the ones I tend to post more on. What do you do?

You respond to my post by saying you checked out IMF, which not only wasn't one of the 2 I told you to check first, but was further on down the list, as just recently started posting there and my post count is not as high as some of the others. You then say I signed up in 2011 and have only 20 posts...then commence bashing me, basically calling me a liar.

I find it hilarious how you "skipped" over the boards I told you to check first and skip down to one that was 4-5 down the list. Why? Well, because in the first two boards on the list I have nearly 20,000 posts in total...that's why. In addition, you LIED about my post count at IMF. Yes, I signed up in 2011, but I barely posted there until 2 months ago (when I got hired by Rob)...and since then I have posted about 300 times (only a fraction of them are devoted to the sponor)...with many of them being very long (instructional) posts, equal to about 10-20 normal length posts. In total I have about 30,000 posts online, but in reality, due to the ength of most of my posts, the contest is more like 50,000! hell, one of my psots there is almost 10,000 words in length (a cmprehensve injection manual i wrote).

So, after your failed attempt to use dishonesty in trying to make me look like a liar, you still have not told me what boards you are on...and NO, I don't see ANY boards at the bottom of your posts. So, post that shit up for me so I can check them out see how many posts you have out there on all these boards. Somehow, I think they will be a fraction of mine...an certainly, they won't contain anywhere close to as much useful info. My guess is they are mostly filled with whining, complaining, putting people down, etc...with very litle useful info. iguess it will be poven shortly...after you tellme whic biards you are on.

On another note, I also want to mention that earlier, you said I was avoiding answering your questions. Now, this was a lie, as I said right from the start that I would be happy to answer any questions anyone had to the best of ability, but you never asked me any questions. Despite this, you continued saying I was avoiding your (imaginary) questions (this is a common tactic used by those who can't win with the truth). After hearing you say this a 3rd time, I said again (very clearly)...please list ANY questions you have and I will answer them all to the best olf my ability. You STILL have not listed a single question, despote your repeated (dalse_ accusations. See, people like you , who lie, manipulate, and trash people's character without casuse, generally have little to NO respect. I suspect this is why I am going to find that you lied about posting an a bunch of boards (when you catually get around to telling me what boards you are on). My guess is that you will have 20-30 posts on various boards, with no real activity and worthwhile contributions.

I have no idea who tommygunz is, but it is funny to me that you find it necessary to make a point of telling me how he "shut his mouth" after you found out her he worked out. Another internet tough guy. You see, the thing is, there actually are some interenet tough guys in real life...and chances are, with this type of continued childish behabior, you might just run into one.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Mike Arnold,..just to state the obvious....moderators on respected boards aren't on the take and pushing sponsors like you do. They are moderators to make sure the board runs smoothly and looks out for members,,,,they don't whore themselves out to say how wonderful a sponsor is.
Do I give you the impression that I don't know what I'm talking about? Do I come off as a guy you can PM and spout more bullshit or stroke to agree with you?

Yes, I am a Mod over there and also help out a sponsor. I was given permission to do this by the owner, as my job as Mod over there is ONLY to run the chem forum. In addition, not as though it matters, but I am in pretty good standing with the other sources there...and if they don't have any issue with it, why do you? LOL. By the way, I was with the sponsor BEFORE becoming a Mod there. I was originally approached by the Admin to mod there...and he knew I was with him. I didn't even ask to continue working with the sponsor, he initiated the conversation and told me he didn't care what sponsor I helped, as long as I did my job, so I took the position. Does that make me and the board a "bad" board in your eyes, bigben?

As far as the PM goes, I was hoping that you would realise making enemies without cause is not wise and agree to just bury the hatchet, but you decided you liked this better.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Its too bad that if his testing was that good he couldn't test for fakes Mike..... Seeing as you are a member of Outlaw I'm sure that you're aware of that situation.

Yeah, I think I put that up last year or something. I addressed your post about fakes in a previous post. Refer to it for my response on this matter.

As for Outlaw, I didn't even know I was a member there. Are you sure I am? If I am, I doubt I have more than 1-2 posts there, if any. I probably only registered because I found something in a Google search on that site that I wanted to read and needed to register in order to read it. I know virtually nothing about any of the content on Outlaw. I have heard of it, of course, but never participated. See for yourself.

I am a member at probably 25-30 boards around the Net, but at least 15 of them I have never posted at, or I posted just 1-2 times looking for info.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Haha...what a POS. I wonder who's coming next? Maybe it'll be a guy claiming to be a Pro from the IFBB?

What are you talking about?

Why am I a POS for putting up a post at Steroidology about the sponsor I worked for? That was probably about a year ago, before he closed shop.

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

I For this reason the speaker himself should be given the benefit of doubt, not being slandered on assumption alone, until either time or evidence shows him to be a liar or simply in error about what he believed.

Why? Why should the speaker be given the benefit of the doubt? You're suggesting the onus should be on the critic to provide the burden of proof rather than the person asserting the claim. That's nonsense and you know it. Commiting a falacy of argumentum ad ignorantiam and getting away with it might be the norm on censored boards, but it doesn't fly here.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Why not? They've sent in pretty much the whole crew at this point, minus Chino..... Ol Chino's probably too busy making youtube vids.

Here's another endorsment from ol Mikey.

This is one thing about Z's gear that is far above average. There is a LOT of gear out there which gives anywhere from minor to severe PIP. I have been using only Z gear for some time now...and just to clarify, I have used every injectable Z makes many times, while always using 3-4 different injectables at a time. I have used each of these injectables over several different batches, which cancels out the possibility of getting a "good" batch.

The bottom line is this. I have not experienced ANY PIP, to ANY degree, with ANY of Z's injectables the ENTIRE time I have been using them. That is exceptional, as I have had numerous experiences using other manufacturers and I have NEVER gone such a long time using such a large variety of products without any pain whatsoever, as I have whenh using Z products. This doesn't have a damn thing to do with "building up" Z products as a rep...it is the truth, plain and simple.

If you really want to read all my posts from when I repped for Z before he closed last year, I can make it easier for you and direct you myself. Would you like that?

As far as the PIP goes, it is true. I never had ANY PIP from any of his injectables...ever, aside from prop, but it was VERY minor. Many other guys said the same thing. It was actually pretty common knowldge and one of the things which differentiated him from many other UGL's. Personally, I appreciated it.

 

[Mike Arnold]

We haven't heard from Shaggy, yet. I expect he'll be arriving momentarily.
No one has heard from him since he fled.

No, it wouldn't have A THING to do with "building up Z products as a rep." It must be good stuff. Will it grow hair and cure the clap, too?

Certainly, it makes the products sound good, but when I posted this, my motivation came from the fact that I had just injected 3 cc's of prop with no pain. I was impressed and put up that post a couple of minutes later.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Why? Why should the speaker be given the benefit of the doubt? You're suggesting the onus should be on the critic to provide the burden of proof rather than the person asserting the claim. That's nonsense and you know it. Commiting a falacy of argumentum ad ignorantiam and getting away with it might be the norm on censored boards, but it doesn't fly here.

I can understand your position under those circumstances, but that is not how it is here. Here, we are equal members of a board where we can freely express our opinions/beliefs. We are both the critic and the claimant...we are eqaual....both posting our thoughts on the same subject. It is not me trying to prove to you, anymore than you are trying to prove to me.

Now, I did not say you needed to believe what was said, but it is common sense (and common decency) not to trash the shit out of someone when you have no idea whether they are telling the truth or not. More so, I am NOT trying to convince you of anything. It is not my burden. I simply spoke my beliefs/opinons, just like you have. You don't have to believe what I say, but you don't have a clue whether I am being honest or not, so why act like it?

In the real world, when someone communicates opposing beliefs/opinions on a matter, the other person doesn't automatically tear the shit out of them and/or attack their charcater just because they have different view, especially when it is a non-moral issue. Anyone who does is gauranteed to have MAJOR problems in life.

Like I said earlier (more than once), the only reason I initialy posted here was to tell the guys who got ripped off the re-send was real (in case guys wanted to get their gear but were afraid he might be LE)...and I forgot the other one...LOL.

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

Here are some open questions to everybody:

Do any company reps have credibility and under what conditions?

IMO, they have about the same credibility as a car salesman. They will tell you the cars they sell are the best and embellish the gas mileage and other features but you wont really know until after you buy it or talk to someone who already has. With AAS reps, this would be assuming the source isn't a scammer.

If not, what about former company reps? Do they ever have credibility?

Why? Why not?

Former reps are a little harder to figure out. You can never be certain they are really former reps if they're pro source or disgruntled former employees if they're bashing the source.

These are only my opinions so make of them what you will.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Here are some open questions to everybody:

Do any company reps have credibility and under what conditions?

If not, what about former company reps? Do they ever have credibility?

Why? Why not?

I think it is much the same as anyone else. All of us post online with basically zero accountability for what we say. So, just like a non-rep builds cred over time based on what he says and how he conducts himself, so to do reps build cred and respect in the same way.

Of course, one who stands to benefit by speaking positively of a particular business is more likely to gaurd their words, as well as embellish or exaggerate, in comparison to someone who has nothing to gain through their words.

In my opinion, UGL's/reps should not seek to gain cedibility through their words. It is an uphill battle with minimal return. On the other hand, if the UGL/rep abstains from using manipulative speech to win over customers and instead uses confirmable facts (or near confirmable facts), they will build cred without even having to try.

For example, in going back to what I was saying earlier about product testing...if UGL's would invest more time and effort into extensive product testing (mass spec & bloodwork with confirmable results), as well as seelking out non-affiliated board members to run logs by giving away free gear, the UGL/rep would be off to a good start.

Confirmable facts don't need time to build cred...they are what they are, which is why we pushed so hard last year for Z to do such extensiove product testing. We knew that if we provided these things, the amount of trust generated would skyrocket...and it did. Our sales were going through the roof, with the overwhelming majority of customer reviews being positive.

A UGL who wants to grow as quicly as possible needs to provide facts. In my opinion, a UGL would be MUCH better off sticking to just 1-2 boards (to start), while building a stable foundation for their business through extensive, confirmable product testing. Instead of spending a ton of cash paying sposnor fees at 6-7 different boards and hiring a half dozen or more reps...why not save all that cash for product testing...and build a reputation as the UGL who calls things the way they are...a no bullshit UGL's who provides "proof" of product legitimacy. It would not takle long for the word to spead and the UGL's popularity tp grow. Before long, people from all over would be loking into that UGL. As time goes on and the business grows, slowly take on additoional boards, but never at the expense of what got them there in the first place.

 

[Zestorer]

What are you talking about?

Why am I a POS for putting up a post at Steroidology about the sponsor I worked for? That was probably about a year ago, before he closed shop.

Alright then Mr.Arnold, then if you are telling me that my eyes deceive me and that you aren't another one of Z' shills and that he (uncleZ) is actually a decent guy than just answer one simple question for me...WHERE IS MY SHIT THAT I PAID FOR LAST MAY???

Until that question is answered by either Z or his shills, I don't care what you guys have to say about 'shaggy', 'oscaro', or any unscrupulous associate of uncleZ, real or fake.

 

[Transhuman]

Alright then Mr.Arnold, then if you are telling me that my eyes deceive me and that you aren't another one of Z' shills and that he (uncleZ) is actually a decent guy than just answer one simple question for me...WHERE IS MY SHIT THAT I PAID FOR LAST MAY???

Until that question is answered by either Z or his shills, I don't care what you guys have to say about 'shaggy', 'oscaro', or any unscrupulous associate of uncleZ, real or fake.

isn't that what resend campaign supposed to be all about? answering that question?

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

I can understand your position under those circumstances, but that is not how it is here. Here, we are equal members of a board where we can freely express our opinions/beliefs. We are both the critic and the claimant...we are eqaual....both posting our thoughts on the same subject. It is not me trying to prove to you, anymore than you are trying to prove to me.

Yes it is. That's why you are here. You came (or were sent here ) with the expectation that your "name" would give credibility to the Z campaign. There's nothing wrong with doing that but at least be honest enough to admit it.

Now, I did not say you needed to believe what was said, but it is common sense (and common decency) not to trash the shit out of someone when you have no idea whether they are telling the truth or not. More so, I am NOT trying to convince you of anything. It is not my burden. I simply spoke my beliefs/opinons, just like you have. You don't have to believe what I say, but you don't have a clue whether I am being honest or not, so why act like it?

In the real world, when someone communicates opposing beliefs/opinions on a matter, the other person doesn't automatically tear the shit out of them and/or attack their charcater just because they have different view, especially when it is a non-moral issue. Anyone who does is gauranteed to have MAJOR problems in life.

I haven't attacked your character or bashed you in any way. In fact, I didn't respond to you at all when you first posted. You seemed likeable enough and have as much right to post your opinion as anyone else. My only interest in this thread is your motive.

Like I said earlier (more than once), the only reason I initialy posted here was to tell the guys who got ripped off the re-send was real (in case guys wanted to get their gear but were afraid he might be LE)...and I forgot the other one...LOL.

You and several others have already done that but your eagerness to continue to engage in this debate has put your motives into question. Why are you willing to invest this much time and your own credibility for Z if you're not doing it for financial incentive? It makes no sense. The more you continue to defend Z, the more suspicious it looks.

I think it's also telling that the others have ceased posting since you arrived. Why? My suspicions are telling me that there is an organized effort to defend Z, and that you were sent in as "the big gun" when the others failed. Surely you can understand how one could come to that conclusion.

The question remains. Why are you really here? I don't believe for one minute you're doing this as a public service and your just "helping Z out." How could anyone possibly believe you are willing to spend this much time and put your "name in the bodybuilding community" in jeopardy just because you're a nice guy? The only possible explaination I can think of is you are either a rep, an employee or have way too much time on your hands.

 

[Kamala]

Here are some open questions to everybody:

Do any company reps have credibility and under what conditions?

If not, what about former company reps? Do they ever have credibility?

Why? Why not?

I do know of some reps that I think have a bit more credibility than others.

The biggest thing IMHO is that a rep needs to be clear that THEY ARE A REP! Mr Arnold was over on another forum, in a moderator position ( which is a whole other can of worms ) praising Z...... But not telling people that he was working for Z.
This is wrong, there is no grey area here...... If you represent something, and are compensated for it, then be strait about it...... This is what is wrong.
It is a very clear conflict of interest, plain & simple.

 

[Kamala]

I hear your point and agree. Of course, you should always use your own discernment and judgment regarding the content of any message. You should also be free to come to your own conclusion as you see fit, again, regarding the subject matter. However, there is a marked difference between the speaker and the message. While a message may be full of error, it does not mean the speaker is intentionally being dishonest. All of us, many times over, have been decieved throughout life. For this reason the speaker himself should be given the benefit of doubt, not being slandered on assumption alone, until either time or evidence shows him to be a liar or simply in error about what he believed.

Sorry, but the benefit of the doubt is long gone in this case.
The organization that you used to work for has a long history of planting people
( such as yourself ) on boards and not being forthright that they are in fact paid representation.
Even on this board recently there are employees of Z's that are not being upfront about the fact they are being compensated for their "work".