A GH and fat loss protocol (rhGH lipolysis) that is science-based

[Type-IIx]

@Type-IIx Is it still reasonable to expect at least some of the connective tissue improvements HGH confers if using a single bolus (5-6iu for example) in the AM only? Alternatively, the bolus would be at ≈3pm (training at 5:30pm). Or would it be advisable to add something on the order of a single iu pre bed for that purpose?

Yes, this is reasonable. There's a slight but significant advantage to PM versus AM administration for retention of N, K, Na, etc.

 

[Deadp007]

@Type-IIx are you releasing your HGH book or am I being trolled?!?

 

[hghlover]

@Type-IIx I thought HGH peaks at the 4 hour mark? Would it not then be ideal to workout (say 30 min cardio) around the 3-4 hour mark post shot?

Also am I understanding it correctly - you can pin HGH, eat maybe an hour later, do cardio 2-4 hours post shot and the food will not have affected the fat loss effects?

 

[hghlover]

@Type-IIx going a bit off topic here, which HGH protocol would you advise for injury healing / rehabilitation? 1 bolus shot daily vs split injections etc

 

[Jin23]

@Type-IIx or anyone else for that matter:

Do you have any opinion on the possibility of combining exogenous HGH with that of one or more secretagogues (let's say CJC/Ipa, for example?).

I've heard whispers of people using a pre-bed CJC/Ipa dose to support/maintain a high "baseline" dose of natural GH, while supplementing with a morning/daytime exogenous GH dose if/when additional GH is desired for either fat loss or supporting anabolism during a heavier cycle.

Anecdotal reports are almost non-existent, however.

I have never found any literature directly addressing this, and as hard as I've tried I've never been able to come up with any solid theoretical conclusions either mechanistically or otherwise.

The most specific part it seems would be how much the stimulation of GH production with a secretagogue would overcome (if at all) the suppression present from a morning dose of exogenous GH.

Is this a totally insane/pointless idea or does it have some merit?

You should be able to use a GHRP alongside GH, as they bind to a different receptor then GHRH, which is inhibited by somatostatin buildup.

Regarding GHRH use, ei. mod grf 1-29 and it's long actin cousin cjc-1295, I use them for sleep. Slow wave (nrem 3 and 4) sleep is promoted by GHRH, not GH, and when using GH, especially if you do it before bed, which I disadvise, you get more REM and les NREM and you get more sleep fragmentation. So using a GHRH to counteract that, seems to work, at least in my experience.

I don't know how much, if any at all, GH excretion a GHRH in combination with GH would a add. But as said, GHRP's do work with GH.

 

[Jin23]

Reduced IGF-I conversion by Gilbert's syndrome per se is unlikely (because acromegalics with the UGT1A1*28 extra TA repeat still show profoundly elevated IGF-I), but I would be very cautious about a couple of other major contraindications against using AAS, SERMs, and potentially rhGH (due to structural similarity to Pegvisomant and its association in Gilbert's syndrome patients with cholestatic hepatitis and potential liver failure).

Specifically:
* The Uridine 5'-diphospho (UDP)-glucuronosyltransferases (UGTs) are involved in phase II metabolism, with respect to AAS, these facilitate excretion of toxic compounds and metabolites (even endogenous testosterone is toxic, in fact), and these are affected by Gilbert's syndrome.
* SERMs (e.g., tamoxifen) are clearly therapeutically contraindicated in Gilbert's syndrome (due almost certainly to profound concentrations induced by effects on phase II metabolism).
* Pegvisomant is a PEGylated rhGH analog that inhibits (antagonist to) the GH receptor. It differs from rhGH (Somatropin) by its PEGylation that reduces the rate of clearance, prolonging half-life and of course, its acting oppositely at the GHR. Pegvisomant is associated with severe liver injury in patients with Gilbert's syndrome.

Basically, I'd not be concerned with significantly reduced IGF-I (GH response) given an rhGH dose, but I'd be remiss to not mention these risks with AAS, SERMs, and potentially multiple dose (i.e., split dosing) rhGH (or use of any purported long-acting GH preparation, secretagogue, etc.) I'd be particularly concerned about the SERMs, AIs, etc. also.

Practically, I'd tread extremely carefully if not adhere to abstinence from PEDs if I had Gilbert's syndrome.

I'm a testament to this. I have the "Gilbert's"mutation (TA7/TA7) of UGT1A gene. Oral AAS fuck me up like nothing else. I used them before I knew and really understood what Gilbert's syndrome means. The doctor, when explaining it to me, just brushed it off as nothing that really makes an impact on ones life/physiology. So naturally, I forgot about it and never really minded it. Which might have been ok, if I didn't use AAS. But SSRI's also really fucked me up. In any case, long story short, my liver is fine, according to blood tests, but my gut is trashed. I have ibs, waking up like I've already had 3 meals in me, and my chit is orange not brown, for the past 3 years. And let me tell you, dealing with ibs is a pita in the medical field as most gastroenterologist's are to lazy to really try and do anything about it.

Orals seem to really change the gut microbiota, which is also a pita to manage, once it's fucked. And I don't know why I was so much more susceptible to it then others. But a trial run of vortioxetine, which just gave me severe D for 2 months, followed by a cycle which also contained Dbol and Tbol, destroyed my gut. @Type-IIx , maybe you have any thoughts on this? Also, unrelated, would cortisol metabolism be effected? Or other HPA hormones?

I've never noticed problems with SERMs, but to be honest, I haven't done liver blood tested while on them. Just haven't noticed any physiological simptoms, feeling wise. But I've noticed having higher serum estrogen leads to higher bilirubin levels. And all orals elevated my liver enzymes more then they do for other people. And just being on injectables also elevates them a bit.

I also seem to have higher blood serum levels of testosterone mg per ng/dl ratio. For instance, 75mg's of test, can net me almost 1000 ng/dl at Tmax. I don't know if this is an effect of Gilbert's.

Anyway, some useful anecdotal info, for anybody reading this ...

 

[Type-IIx]

Orals seem to really change the gut microbiota, which is also a pita to manage, once it's fucked. And I don't know why I was so much more susceptible to it then others. But a trial run of vortioxetine, which just gave me severe D for 2 months, followed by a cycle which also contained Dbol and Tbol, destroyed my gut. @Type-IIx , maybe you have any thoughts on this? Also, unrelated, would cortisol metabolism be effected? Or other HPA hormones?

Nobody understands the gut microbiome yet, other than it has a modulating influence on essentially every biological system.

Cortisol metabolism affected by, the gut microbiome and oral 17AAs? Nobody knows.

The hypothalamo-adrenal axis and androgen interactions are not at all well characterized.

I also seem to have higher blood serum levels of testosterone mg per ng/dl ratio. For instance, 75mg's of test, can net me almost 1000 ng/dl at Tmax. I don't know if this is an effect of Gilbert's.

Absolutely, this is the result of decreased excretion in phase II metabolism.

 

[Type-IIx]

@Type-IIx I thought HGH peaks at the 4 hour mark? Would it not then be ideal to workout (say 30 min cardio) around the 3-4 hour mark post shot?

Also am I understanding it correctly - you can pin HGH, eat maybe an hour later, do cardio 2-4 hours post shot and the food will not have affected the fat loss effects?

We don't care about timing of peak GH for lipolysis, we care about peak lipolysis (as reflected by glycerol concentrations).

 

[Jin23]

Cortisol metabolism affected by, the gut microbiome and oral 17AAs? Nobody knows.

No, I worded that a bit poorly, actually I meant if cortisol metabolism is affected by Gilbert's ...

 

[SVENGALI]

So the AM gh shot followed by fasting weights and cardio I've been following was bro science?‍ should've just stuck to EOD it seems. I wanna grow and preserve muscle but the lipolysis is key as well currently cutting hard.

 

[Adg99]

So the AM gh shot followed by fasting weights and cardio I've been following was bro science?‍ should've just stuck to EOD it seems. I wanna grow and preserve muscle but the lipolysis is key as well currently cutting hard.

Wait so what are you going to change it to now? Your current approach seems reasonable

 

[SVENGALI]

Wait so what are you going to change it to now? Your current approach seems reasonable

I have kept it AM 2-4ius, 5 at times and the carpal tunnel hit hard. So, back to 2-3 generally b4 workouts In AM, but w work changing I may have to modify this approach bc all.workouts will be evening, but work will be significantly more blue collar than past so may "count" as fasted cardio. I'll say the spot loss aspect of this for even 2mos has been excellent.

 

[vanguardx6]

So i'm currently cutting with Tirzepatide (10mg/week) and Metformin (500mg/day). It's going very well. I'm currently sitting at 8-9% according to a DEXA scan. I've been reading up on HGH for some time now and reading conflicting results regarding fatloss. Some people swear by it, others think its a waste of money. I'm trying to cut down to 5-6 %.

Would any of you have some experience with this? Is it worth running lets say 2iu/day untill i'm at desired bodyfat?

 

[Jin23]

So i'm currently cutting with Tirzepatide (10mg/week) and Metformin (500mg/day). It's going very well. I'm currently sitting at 8-9% according to a DEXA scan. I've been reading up on HGH for some time now and reading conflicting results regarding fatloss. Some people swear by it, others think its a waste of money. I'm trying to cut down to 5-6 %.

Would any of you have some experience with this? Is it worth running lets say 2iu/day untill i'm at desired bodyfat?

Gh helps me a lot at 2iu's. Hard to put on fat and just keep on loosing fat - inspite of me trying not to ... (have a low appetite)

 

[vanguardx6]

Gh helps me a lot at 2iu's. Hard to put on fat and just keep on loosing fat - inspite of me trying not to ... (have a low appetite)

Do you follow the protocol outlined in this thread by Type-IIx regarding the timing etc? How was your water retention?

 

[Adg99]

Gh helps me a lot at 2iu's. Hard to put on fat and just keep on loosing fat - inspite of me trying not to ... (have a low appetite)

How long before you started noticing results?

 

[MFAAS]

@Type-IIx or anyone else for that matter:

Do you have any opinion on the possibility of combining exogenous HGH with that of one or more secretagogues (let's say CJC/Ipa, for example?).

I have experience with this it made me feel like gyno was flaring up. igf-1 has been shown to cause tissue growth in male nipple aka gyno, so this isn't surprising. I can take 10 IU HGH and be fine but 4 IU HGH and 200/150 IPA/MOD GRF had me feeling like gyno.

I've heard whispers of people using a pre-bed CJC/Ipa dose to support/maintain a high "baseline" dose of natural GH, while supplementing with a morning/daytime exogenous GH dose if/when additional GH is desired for either fat loss or supporting anabolism during a heavier cycle.

IMO just use them separately, as in, pick one of the other. Just my opinion. I tried this too and felt the same as mentioned above.

Anecdotal reports are almost non-existent, however.

Just gave you one for the first scenario.

I have never found any literature directly addressing this, and as hard as I've tried I've never been able to come up with any solid theoretical conclusions either mechanistically or otherwise.

The most specific part it seems would be how much the stimulation of GH production with a secretagogue would overcome (if at all) the suppression present from a morning dose of exogenous GH.

Is this a totally insane/pointless idea or does it have some merit?

I don't think t has any benefit. The GH secretion will recover soon after cessation of exogenous HGH. It's not like with steroids where using HCG revents atrophy. There is no pituitary atrophy going on with HGH that I am aware of.

If you really want to dose HGH in the morning, then the only benefit I see from that is the nightly peptides might help you sleep more. Other than that it seems kinda pointless.

Just saw type 2 responded as well. Well at least you have an anecdote now.

 

[Jin23]

Do you follow the protocol outlined in this thread by Type-IIx regarding the timing etc? How was your water retention?

I try not eating at least 4h after the pin, but if I can extend it I go towards 5 or 6h (I pin when I wake up). Sometimes I eat first, wait something like 30m and then pin. But this is not sustainable for me, as I'm starting to get a lot of post prandial brain fog, which is a sign of insulin resistance for me. So will need to go back to eating only fats and protein as the first meal after GH pin.

Water retention on 2iu's is small but present. Can feel it a bit in my hand fingers ... nothing to major ...

 

[UncleBuns]

I try not eating at least 4h after the pin, but if I can extend it I go towards 5 or 6h (I pin when I wake up). Sometimes I eat first, wait something like 30m and then pin. But this is not sustainable for me, as I'm starting to get a lot of post prandial brain fog, which is a sign of insulin resistance for me. So will need to go back to eating only fats and protein as the first meal after GH pin.

Water retention on 2iu's is small but present. Can feel it a bit in my hand fingers ... nothing to major ...

Doesn't protein cause insulin release? I thought insulin was needed to shuttle some amino acids into cells?

 

[HB_22]

Doesn't protein cause insulin release? I thought insulin was needed to shuttle some amino acids into cells?

Yes, even protein will force the body to release insulin by elevating blood glucose levels.