Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivity?

m_ob

New Member
Androgen receptor down regulation has been generally disproven, rather upregulation, but there is a lot of research that points to the ability of the androgen receptor to become desensitive or basically almost useless when exposed to high doses of androgens over time. Here's a reading on it, I'd like to know if anyone buys into this and what they do about it.



Basically, one must view the receptor sites as parking spaces.

Envision a slew of parking spaces that are all empty. Now we are going to call these parking spaces your receptor
sites and we shall call steroids the cars. Now I want you to imagine one of those old 1950's style drive up
hamburger stands where the girls come up in roller skates and take your order. Typically one would order a burger,
fries and a coke--ah the food of the gods--the waitress would take the order, go bring the information to the
cook, who would in-turn make the food and the waitress would then bring the food to you and you would then
begin eating which is the whole reason you came to the hamburger stand in the first place.

I think everyone can easily understand that. Which means everyone can easily understand all they need to know
about the receptor sites because they do the exact same thing. We will keep with this hamburger stand model and
explain what happens when you inject steroids and they begin to go to work.

Remember how I said steroids were like the cars and the parking spaces were like the receptor sites? Well it is
basically that simple. When you inject testosterone or any one of it's anabolic or androgenic derivatives, you are
sending a whole slew of "cars" into your system. Now these "cars" are on a mission--just like you would be if you
were hungry and heading to a hamburger stand. They have orders to place with the cells, but before they can
place them they must first find a parking space.

Now let's say you have never used steroids before. If this were the case, it would be very much like a hamburger
stand that was having a grand opening....lots and lots of empty parking spaces waiting for cars to fill them up and
place their orders. The steroids (cars) enter the system and come to a brand new hamburger stand called your
cells. Now these cells have never previously been open to the boat-load of anabolics that are now present in the
system because they previously only dealt with what your body naturally produced. However, there are lots of
extra parking spaces that can be utilized and so the steroids park themselves into these spaces.

Once they are parked a "waitress" called CYCLICl AMP literally crosses the cellular membrane which is totally
impenetrably to anything else and takes the order from the steroid. The order is quite simple: Build More Muscle!!

The "waitress" then crosses back through the cellular membrane and brings the order to the "cook" called the
Nucleus who begins to fill it by ordering its helpers called Ribosomes to produce muscle protein.. Now different
steroids will have slightly different orders in that some may have a bigger order for the cook to fill--such as
testosterone. The thing you have to realize is that a lot of times, after the order is placed, the steroid does not
necessarily leave the parking space and make it available to other steroids.....it will often sit in the parking space
even though it is no longer sending orders to the "waitress" to bring to the "cook", and this is where the problem of
"DOWN-REGULATION" comes in. You see even if you send in more and more fresh new "cars" to occupy the
receptor spaces, if they are already taken up by old "dead cars" you are **** out of luck.....

This is why you do not continually grow by injecting bigger and bigger doses of steroids. THERE ARE A LIMITED
NUMBER OF PARKING SPACES. Now it would not be so bad if all the parking spaces were taken by "cars" that were
sending orders to the cook, because that is when you grow. The problem is when there are "cars" that are no
longer sending orders and on top of that have dead batteries which is preventing them from exiting the receptors
parking space.

This is what the whole point of this article is....TOWING AWAY ALL THE DEAD "CARS" FROM THE RECEPTOR SITES
PARKING SPACES AS TO FREE THEM UP FOR NEW, FRESH, HUNGRY "CARS" TO OCCUPY THEM...This will result in
new muscle mass!

O.K. Trevor, I am with you so far, but what the **** can I do about it?

The answer is ...PLENTY!

First and foremost, is to plan sensible courses. This is why I am an advocate of short courses designed in such a
fashion as to have all drugs out of the system by the end of the cycle and then allow for a 3-4 week off time in
which you are totally clean. If you stay on these monster 4-6 month courses, you just wind up screwing yourself
and requiring that much longer of an off period. The longer you are on, the more the body recognizes that there is
"too much" in the system and will begin to take counter measures. And the longer you are on, the more "dead cars"
you will have sitting in the receptor parking spaces which means NO MORE GROWING!

Now with this in mind, how can we help get the cars out of there?

Well WE actually cannot, but the body can and will. Basically as time goes by, the body will free up the parking
spaces just like a tow truck would remove a dead car from a parking space. However, you are at the mercy of time
in this situation which is why it is important to utilize short courses that will cause less disturbance in the system,
less "dead cars" in the receptor spaces and therefore less time needed for the body to remove them and free up
the spaces.
 
Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

Provide a single cite for AR down regulation with AAS administration in bone or muscle.

[What you provided is BS - .:. Arabian Muscles .:. ]
 
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Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

Doc, I'm not advocating a down regulation theory. My question is regarding the possibility for a long period of exogenous testosterone administration causing a loss of sensitivity to androgens, therefore making more T worthless. Can androgen receptors lose their sensitivity?
 
Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

Doc, I'm not advocating a down regulation theory. My question is regarding the possibility for a long period of exogenous testosterone administration causing a loss of sensitivity to androgens, therefore making more T worthless. Can androgen receptors lose their sensitivity?

No.

The OP is trash.
 
Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

No.

The OP is trash.

Then theoretically you could run 500 mg a week or more and remain just as sensitive to testosterone as you were before you started?
I know there are other factors in control of why we stop growing, myostatin and genetics, but what research is there to support that sensitivity remains the same? I have some real life experience that says otherwise.
 
Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

Can you build a tolerance to testosterone?
 
Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

The body will adapt to excessive stimuli of any sort IMO. This applies to almost everything, opiates, amphetamines, SSRI, D2agonists, hCG, light, darkness, heat, cold, spankings et cetera..

You asked if the androgen receptor in itself loses sensitivity. Scally says no.

You are aware that other factors play a role in myogenesis and those factors are used to adapt to excessive stimuli IMO.
 
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Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

The body will adapt to excessive stimuli of any sort IMO. This applies to almost everything, opiates, amphetamines, SSRI, D2agonists, hCG, light, darkness, heat, cold, spankings et cetera..

You asked if the androgen receptor in itself loses sensitivity. Scally says no.

You are aware that other factors play a role in myogenesis and those factors are used to adapt to excessive stimuli IMO.

Is this why pros can run year round and never really shrink or see significant declines?
 
Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

I expressed my opinion on pharmacological and physiological interactions. Do you perceive them to be false?

I don't even really know how to answer your question. Lets put it like this. I don't believe professional bodybuilders are only using AAS to achieve growth and maintain muscle mass. :)
 
Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

I expressed my opinion on pharmacological and physiological interactions. Do you perceive them to be false?

I don't even really know how to answer your question. Lets put it like this. I don't believe professional bodybuilders are only using AAS to achieve growth and maintain muscle mass. :)

Then if Scally says no, you too believe insensitivity will never become an issue? I'm talking about on TRT doses, not steroids. If it were possible it would mean that every guy on TRT would eventually bottom out and it would never work, but that's not at all the case.
 
Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

Wow! Your questions are different each time. First it's androgen receptor, then tolerance to testosterone, then pro bodybuilders now TRT :) I can follow, but don't selectively interpret the answers to correlate to your different questions.

TRT patients are receiving a physiological dose that shouldn't be affected at all in the bottoming out aspect in regards to the AR. The body is at stasis why would it want to differ from that?
 
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Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

Wow! Your questions are different each time. First it's androgen receptor, then tolerance to testosterone, then pro bodybuilders now TRT :) I can follow, but don't selectively interpret the answers to correlate to your different questions.

TRT patients are receiving a physiological dose that shouldn't be affected at all in the bottoming out aspect in regards to the AR. The body is at stasis why would it want to differ from that?

Even if they remained a wee bit above 1,000 (ng/dL) for an entire year? Is that considered super high or still close to physiological levels? This is mainly about me personally lol.
 
Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

Not a lot of guys are 1000+ naturally, you want to replace your natural testosterone not exceed it.

What do you specifically fear might happen?
 
Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

Not a lot of guys are 1000+ naturally, you want to replace your natural testosterone not exceed it.

What do you specifically fear might happen?

I've seen a lot of guys talking about how they're either on 100mg a week or 200, but I've also seen the occasional 400 a week guy, which is crazy, but you usually don't hear anything but positives aside from libido and ED issues maybe.

My fear stems from confusion I guess. When I first started any TRT it was 4 pumps of androgel daily along with a wee bit of HCG. It kept me feeling great, gained me 40 pounds of muscle, and just did its job. It kept my T up near 1,200 ng/dL, and my theory then was that my androgen receptors were extremely starved for test, which resulted in quick and noticeable gains. What doesn't make sense about this theory is that I kept making gains for almost the entire year.

Fast forward to basically a year later and I was noticing changes again. They were subtle at first, but noticeable nonetheless. First I lost tone, then libido went, then a few pounds. I started to get facial bloat, something that had never happened to me while my levels were high and even when my E2 was elevated. I figured I had enough T in my blood to outweigh a 52 pg/mL E2 level.
Anyway, I have to theories on this..
1.) It tends to be the same for many on transdermals. If it works, it works but it will only work for a certain amount of time. You're on borrowed time from the start, and its only a matter of time before your skin adapts as a result of external factors (maybe even the gel itself) and your stratum conreum thickens, thus leading to an overall decrease in absorbtion. For me I feel that as my T dropped, E2 and SHBG took over, just raising hell in my body.

2.) I was too high, too long and I payed the price? This one makes less sense to me because especially on the gels you aren't always elevated. You have daily peaks and troughs that should keep a certain level of sensitivity..no? My troughs had to be down in the 400's, and the peaks in the 1,000's.

Where this all applies to me now is, after all that mess with the androgel, my doc puts me on androgel 1.62% for 3 months thinking that would do the trick..only made matters worse and made me hate transdermals more. He tried Testim as a last resort effort and finally started me on 60 mg test cyp a week..so extremely low. I was on that dose for about 2 months, then he tested and bumped it up to 100 mg a week for about 3 months. Finally about 5 weeks ago he bumped it to 200 mg a week, as I wasn't feeling the 60 or 100. Now it comes down to,
1.) Have I given it enough time or am I expecting too much too fast.
Some dudes say it takes around 6-8 weeks to fully notice changes.
2.) Am I truly insensitive as a result of what I've done, and will this not work for me at all?
3.) Is it even possible? It doesn't seem to add up with real world results as far as testosterone's concerned.

There's my little book :P
 
Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

... I figured I had enough T in my blood to outweigh a 52 pg/mL E2 level. ...:P

is this even the way this works? that high e2 is ok if you have high testosterone too? I'm leaning toward against
 
Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

is this even the way this works? that high e2 is ok if you have high testosterone too? I'm leaning toward against

I didn't seem to have any problems while my T was high, just going off what I felt..that parts not especially significant to what I'm getting at..
 
Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

OP
Your posting a OPINION from a blog site, but is there any evidence which supports their "logic"......NOT!
:)
 
Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

This thread, if you take the time to read and comprehend it will answer a lot of your questions: https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134313630

"For a far shorter version: the studies you refer to show downregulation as androgen levels increase from zero up to normal.
It is true that the body responds to abnormally low androgen levels by increasing the number of androgen receptors: this effect is lost on restoring androgen levels.
That is a totally different matter than what happens when androgen levels are increased above normal."

-Bill Roberts in response to studies showing AR downregulation.

"Sinha-Hikim I, Taylor WE, Gonzalez-Cadavid NF, Zheng W, Bhasin S. Androgen Receptor in Human Skeletal Muscle and Cultured Muscle Satellite Cells: Up-Regulation by Androgen Treatment. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 2004;89(10):5245-55. Androgen Receptor in Human Skeletal Muscle and Cultured Muscle Satellite Cells: Up-Regulation by Androgen Treatment

Androgens stimulate myogenesis, but we do not know what cell types within human skeletal muscle express the androgen receptor (AR) protein and are the target of androgen action. Because testosterone promotes the commitment of pluripotent, mesenchymal cells into myogenic lineage, we hypothesized that AR would be expressed in mesenchymal precursor cells in the skeletal muscle. AR expression was evaluated by immunohistochemical staining, confocal immunofluorescence, and immunoelectron microscopy in sections of vastus lateralis from healthy men before and after treatment with a supraphysiological dose of testosterone enanthate. Satellite cell cultures from human skeletal muscle were also tested for AR expression."

- A study posted by Scally
 
Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

This thread, if you take the time to read and comprehend it will answer a lot of your questions: https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134313630

"For a far shorter version: the studies you refer to show downregulation as androgen levels increase from zero up to normal.
It is true that the body responds to abnormally low androgen levels by increasing the number of androgen receptors: this effect is lost on restoring androgen levels.
That is a totally different matter than what happens when androgen levels are increased above normal."

-Bill Roberts in response to studies showing AR downregulation.

"Sinha-Hikim I, Taylor WE, Gonzalez-Cadavid NF, Zheng W, Bhasin S. Androgen Receptor in Human Skeletal Muscle and Cultured Muscle Satellite Cells: Up-Regulation by Androgen Treatment. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 2004;89(10):5245-55. Androgen Receptor in Human Skeletal Muscle and Cultured Muscle Satellite Cells: Up-Regulation by Androgen Treatment

Androgens stimulate myogenesis, but we do not know what cell types within human skeletal muscle express the androgen receptor (AR) protein and are the target of androgen action. Because testosterone promotes the commitment of pluripotent, mesenchymal cells into myogenic lineage, we hypothesized that AR would be expressed in mesenchymal precursor cells in the skeletal muscle. AR expression was evaluated by immunohistochemical staining, confocal immunofluorescence, and immunoelectron microscopy in sections of vastus lateralis from healthy men before and after treatment with a supraphysiological dose of testosterone enanthate. Satellite cell cultures from human skeletal muscle were also tested for AR expression."

- A study posted by Scally

The title, "Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, NO Decreased sensitivity? Has nothing to do with downregulation. THERE IS NO SUCH THING. It doesn't correlate with real world results. I understand this, but sensitivity is an entirely different thing on its own. Downregulation would be a decrease in the number of androgen receptors as a result of an increase in androgens, you already know this. A decreased sensitivity would mean that there are the same amount of androgen receptors, but each becomes less sensitive rendering them essentially useless unless you stop all testosterone to regain sensitivity. Yes or no, do receptors lose sensitivity to testosterone specifically? This is only a matter of sensitivity, or let me put it this way, it'd be like insulin resistance..the cells are no longer able to respond to the normal actions of the hormone insulin. Can the same go for test?
 
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