Aren't all religions the same? Is Christ the only way to God?

[Grizzly]

He deserved it anyway, Mark. He called Nietzsche an existentialist. That bastard!

 

[oldtimer]

OT, do you have any websites (prefer in English) that talk about normal Muslims and the qu'ran? I did a quick search and pretty much everything was about Jihad.

Heya Bob, sorry for the late reply as i was on road and came back late last night.

Start with this: http://www.ahya.org/invite/index.shtml

If you have specific Qs, pls let me know.

-OT

 

[dolfe1]

"If "logic" is in the character of God, then we comprehend it because of His will."

Yes, I know that argument very well. Other than Platonic Idealism (and the watered-down version seen in Augustine), where is there ANY EVIDENCE, Biblical or otherwise, that logic is in the character of God?

Sure, we humans, especially Socrates (the paradigm for logic over emotions and the overdevelopment of reason) seemingly have to be ruled by a logical God. In the 21st Century and every time period since modern philosophy, "illogical" has been a dirty word. In conclusion, there is no evidence that God is pure logic, there is only our desire to be ruled by a logical God.

Kierkegaard, regarded by some to be the greatest of Christian Philosophers (except for Augustine probably), wanted Christianity to throw logic and reasoning out of the window.

The "Leap of Faith" is just that, a leap into the unknown. It is highly unreasonable, and is seen as ridiculous to those who value reason. (Just look at Grizzly. He thinks Christianity is whooey, because he is a highly rational individual.)

[MK]

And by implication all Christians are irrational? Probably the silliest statement I've seen you make MK.

 

[Grizzly]

Did you bother to read his whole post or just the little section you felt like taking issue with? Chrsit, it's like arguing with Mr. Blue from Ironlife!

 

[dolfe1]

Did you bother to read his whole post or just the little section you felt like taking issue with? Chrsit, it's like arguing with Mr. Blue from Ironlife!

Grizzly, you disagree? Does his statement not imply that Christians are irrational? If I felt like taking issue with one "little section" this would mean that I did read the whole post, otherwise it would have not been a decision based on feeling.

 

[Grizzly]

It may imply that, and, as Mark asserted, I agree.

However, the point I was making is that he explained the reasoning of it just fine. I was under the impression that, "The "Leap of Faith" is just that, a leap into the unknown. It is highly unreasonable, and is seen as ridiculous to those who value reason." was justification enough of his statement.

Believing in something that can neither be touched, smelled, seen, heard, conversed with, etc. is unreasonable. We tell our kids to knock it off when the have invisible friends...

 

[dolfe1]

It may imply that, and, as Mark asserted, I agree.

However, the point I was making is that he explained the reasoning of it just fine. I was under the impression that, "The "Leap of Faith" is just that, a leap into the unknown. It is highly unreasonable, and is seen as ridiculous to those who value reason." was justification enough of his statement.

Believing in something that can neither be touched, smelled, seen, heard, conversed with, etc. is unreasonable. We tell our kids to knock it off when the have invisible friends...

I understand MK's point Grizzly, and I do understand faith.

 

[Grizzly]

And, damnit, quit agreeing with me in the Bowflex thread. I'm trying to argue with you all day and you keep fucking it up.

 

[dolfe1]

And, damnit, quit agreeing with me in the Bowflex thread. I'm trying to argue with you all day and you keep fucking it up.

Ok ok ok, Bowflex is soooo awesome I wanna buy four.

 

[dolfe1]

And, damnit, quit agreeing with me in the Bowflex thread. I'm trying to argue with you all day and you keep fucking it up.

Awww, argueing with Grizzly takes me back to the good ole days when I first started posting on the new Meso.

 

[thick]

chics need to stop drinking beer grizzly b/c of their beer bellies

Awww, argueing with Grizzly takes me back to the good ole days when I first started posting on the new Meso.

 

[Grizzly]

Instigating post whore!

 

[thick]

lmao

Instigating post whore!

 

[dolfe1]

lmao

Damn it thick and Grizzly beer is....ahh never mind! lmao

 

[Rod]

"Augustine would probably not be seen as a Christian by today's standards. After all, Augustine didnt believe in Satan and actually seems to give Plato more credit for Christianity than Christ himself. Not to mention Augustine was incredibly wealthy in his old age and was so gluttonous that he had to have a half-circle cut in his desk so he could work. You have to love the early Catholic Church

I dont think Augustine has had a big influence on Christianity, but he has had a big influence on philosophy from a Christian Perspective."


Mark have you actually read Augustine, I suspect that you haven't. Have you even read any of today's intelligent Christian? If you had read these I doubt that you would say "Augustine would probably not be seen as a Christian by today's standards". Modern Christians consider Augustine a saint.

Mark for this statement you need to give a reference: "Augustine ... actually seems to give Plato more credit for Christianity than Christ himself." I have read Augustine, and I can't see from where you got this idea. In fact, it makes no sense.

"Not to mention Augustine was incredibly wealthy in his old age and was so gluttonous that he had to have a half-circle cut in his desk so he could work." Gluttony and wealth do not exclude someone from being a saint. Aquinas was a glutton and from well connected family.

"You have to love the early Catholic Church" I do love the early Catholic Church. I love the rest of the Church through all history. Including the Church today.


P.S. Aquinas had no problem with faith and logic. Mark, I find confusing your contrasting of science, logic, and faith.

 

[Mark Kerr]

FACT: Augustine didnt believe in Satan

FACT: Augustine was not born a Christian, he didnt believe in his youth. The reason he began to believe in Christianity was because there was a philosophy that made such a belief possible (Plato). Therefore, if there had never been works by Plato, Augustine never would have converted to Christianity. As an intellectual, Augustine felt Christianity was justifiable because Platonic philosophy allowed for such belief. Augustine was Platonist first, then Christian. (See Book 7 and Book 8 of Confessions...)

FACT: The Catholic Church abused its position of power for personal gain. Augustine was no different. No one can convince me that writing philosophy in a palace made of gold built on the money, sweat and blood of early believers is righteous.

As far as Augustine being a Saint, its true and I cant argue with that. However, being labeled a Saint by the Catholic Church does not make one truly saintly. For my reasons, see fact #3.

If I told someone at almost any church that I didnt believe in Satan, believed in the Christian God because Plato made it "philosophically possible" and wanted churches to give me money to build a golden palace so I can do "God's bidding", I dont think they would think of me as a man of God.

Just my 2 philosophical cents...

[MK]

 

[Mark Kerr]

As far as Aquinas, he did indeed seem to have a problem with faith and logic...

Aquinas has 5 famous philosophical proofs for the existence of God, so it seems Aquinas does indeed need to hide behind logic in order to justify his faith...

For Aquinas, THERE HAD TO BE PHILOSOPHICAL PROOF FOR GOD!!

Aquinas did not have what it takes to make the "Leap of Faith." Aquinas, like Augustine, did not have complete faith in God. Aquinas needed logical proof, and Augustine needed Platonic justification...

A MAN OF FAITH NEEDS NEITHER LOGIC NOR PLATONISM...

[MK]

 

[Grizzly]

Gluttony and wealth do not exclude someone from being a saint. Aquinas was a glutton and from well connected family.

It probably should considering gluttony and greed are both cardinal sins in the catholic tradition, eh?

 

[Grizzly]

You tell him, Mark. LOL

 

[Mark Kerr]

Hehe. Sorry, I'll get off of my soapbox...

I was just a little insulted that he accused me of never reading Augustine...

I dont know much, but philosophy is something that I do know.