Aren't all religions the same? Is Christ the only way to God?

[Bob Smith]

Who gives a rats ass about the Catholic church anyway?

 

[Grizzly]

I must admit that I did get a bit of a chuckle...or maybe it was a chortle...when I read that about you probably never having read Augustine.

 

[Mark Kerr]

Who gives a rats ass about the Catholic church anyway?

Good question...

 

[Rod]

Hehe. Sorry, I'll get off of my soapbox...

I was just a little insulted that he accused me of never reading Augustine...

I dont know much, but philosophy is something that I do know.

Mark since you are so good at philosophy, maybe you could start with a definition of logic and faith. I think that it may save me some time.

Grizzly, please don't chortle or chuckle at me. I am not as sophisticated as you but I know a few things.

 

[Grizzly]

It has nothing to do with sophistication. I just thought it was rather humorous that you hypothesized that Mark(Mr. MENSA, philosophy degree having, law student) hadn't read Augustine.

 

[Rod]

"As far as Aquinas, he did indeed seem to have a problem with faith and logic..."

Mark, why is faith in God an illogical problem? Maybe God really does exist, and thinking logically from the evidence will lead one to the belief in his existence.

 

[Grizzly]

I already posted the answer to that. I'm sure Mark will expound upon it, but it's illogical to believe in something that NO ONE can touch, taste, smell, hear, see, converse with, high five, low five, on the side five, play cards, dissect, etc.

As I stated before, we tell our children to knock it off when they are talking to their imaginary friends. What's the difference?

 

[Rod]

It has nothing to do with sophistication. I just thought it was rather humorous that you hypothesized that Mark(Mr. MENSA, philosophy degree having, law student) hadn't read Augustine.

I didn't think that that Mr. Mensa had not read Augustine. I just wanted a reference for his assertion that "Augustine ... actually seems to give Plato more credit for Christianity than Christ himself. I guess that that is too much to ask from Mr. Mensa. I too have read Augustine and Marks interpretation just doesn't seem right. I guess that I am not as perceptive as Mr. Mensa.

 

[Rod]

"it's illogical to believe in something that NO ONE can touch, taste, smell, hear, see, converse with, high five, low five, on the side five, play cards, dissect, etc."

Oh fuck Grizzly! People have touched, smelt, heard, and, conversed with Jesus and God. There is a strong historical record.

 

[Hogg]

"As far as Aquinas, he did indeed seem to have a problem with faith and logic..."

Mark, why is faith in God an illogical problem? Maybe God really does exist, and thinking logically from the evidence will lead one to the belief in his existence.

Rod, Mark believes in God, on blind faith if nothing else, and that was his initial argument, God does not follow logic, belief in God need not follow logic, etc. His argument was never whether or not God exists.

I tend to see science as reaching a singularity which thereafter can only be considered as by God's order without any further understanding.....science is logical though it may seem abstract at times. But when a scientist closes his book and says 'Its God from this point back', it is not logical....there is nothing to truly support the belief that God, by some method, is responsible for anything.....that is the dichotomy.

 

[Hogg]

BTW - I like your new nickname MK

 

[Grizzly]

Oh fuck Grizzly! People have touched, smelt, heard, and, conversed with Jesus and God. There is a strong historical record.

And there's a strong historical(and current) record that wearing a tin foil hat will keep the alien mind control beams from penetrating you skull. Also, if you spray aerosol deoderant around you, it keeps the spirits away from you.

There's been a multitude of people who have claimed to be God. In fact, IIRC, a pope claimed that he was god. We don't believe any of them, so why on earth would you believe some cracked out Guadalupan in the middle of the fucking jungle when he says, "hombre, I just saw the Virgin Mary standing on that rock over there."

As long as we're taking non-verifiable, personal accounts for evidence, I'd just like to let you know that my cock is 7" in circumference and 9" in lenght.

 

[garyzilla]

If one believes that Jesus is God, then there are those that have seen God. But if you do not believe the Bible then you can say that noone has seen God. It is that simple.

-Pastor

 

[Hogg]

If one believes that Jesus is God, then there are those that have seen God. But if you do not believe the Bible then you can say that noone has seen God. It is that simple.

-Pastor

Enlighten me if you will pastor, Jesus was suppose to be an image of God that man could understand, in other words, a form that man could relate to and put on earth to suffer all that a man could suffer (or worse) which in a way shows that man in its form could be worthy of God....

Now if we talk about state, were Jesus God at the time he walked on the earth, he would not have died a man's death.....God isnt man, he does not die as a man would....he is immortal. Further, though he performed miracles of healing and the like, Christ displayed far less power than God. Further, he prayed to the Father. Now were he himself God and not an image of God, the son of God, etc, he would not pray to himself....I dont know if that makes sense or not. It is said that Christ was the Lord's only begotten son....which implies that he was not God .....though perhaps this issue takes on an esoteric form that is far outside of man's ability to comprehend.

 

[garyzilla]

Enlighten me if you will pastor, Jesus was suppose to be an image of God that man could understand, in other words, a form that man could relate to and put on earth to suffer all that a man could suffer (or worse) which in a way shows that man in its form could be worthy of God....

Now if we talk about state, were Jesus God at the time he walked on the earth, he would not have died a man's death.....God isnt man, he does not die as a man would....he is immortal. Further, though he performed miracles of healing and the like, Christ displayed far less power than God. Further, he prayed to the Father. Now were he himself God and not an image of God, the son of God, etc, he would not pray to himself....I dont know if that makes sense or not. It is said that Christ was the Lord's only begotten son....which implies that he was not God .....though perhaps this issue takes on an esoteric form that is far outside of man's ability to comprehend.

Hogg,

The questions that you have a asked are huge! Books have been written on the very questions that you have asked. I will try to anwser the questions with as few words has possible.

Terms and Definitions:

Hyponstatic Union- The union if two natures, undiminshed Deity and perfect humanity forever in one person without addition, subtraction, or change.

Theanthropic Being- Literally, Christ is the God/man, uniquely both God and man, combining the nature of God and the nature of SINLESS MAN inot one person

Incarnation- God's act of taking on a human body or flesh. John 1:14, 1 John 4:2

Impeccability- Chirst was NOT able to sin. 1 John 3:5, and James 1:13

Kenosis- "to empty" Christ voluntarily emptied Himself of His glory or existence in a manner equal with God, while on earth. He veiled, or voluntarily did not excercise His attributes as God, but still possessed them. Phil 2:5-11

A good was of looking at the Trinity is this: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Christ took on a submissive role while on earth by choice, does mean the he was any less God. The definition of "Kenosis" explians this.

 

[Mark Kerr]

Rod: Sorry, I wasnt trying to say that I know so much about philosophy that intelligent minds cant disagree. We can disagree about our interpretation of Augustine. What I didnt like was (and you did indeed) accuse me of not reading Augustine and you didnt offer any counter-arguments. You just seemed to brush me off.

Mark, why is faith in God an illogical problem? Maybe God really does exist, and thinking logically from the evidence will lead one to the belief in his existence.

Good question, but the answer is simple. There is not enough scientific evidence for one to logically believe in Gods existence. There just isnt. To illustrate my point, I went to a conference called Evolution and Atheism: One in the Same? or something like that at my university. One of the speakers, who was an evolutionary biologist said There is more scientific evidence for Bigfoot than there is for God. It was a joke, but he was trying to make a point.

Hogg described my belief in God very well when he said it was blind faith. Personally, archeologists could uncover a letter written by Jesus himself that says I am going to pull a fast one on all the Jews in the area with my brand new magic tricks and nothing about my beliefs would change. I am the first to admit that my faith is irrational. I am sure there are many people who wish they could slap me for such blind devotion.

If one believes that Jesus is God, then there are those that have seen God. But if you do not believe the Bible then you can say that noone has seen God. It is that simple.

That is a really good point. In fact, that is the center of a huge theological debate, was Jesus true man? True God? Or Both?

Now, here is when my personal religious beliefs are different than mainstream Christianity: I believe Jesus was a man, he felt pain, sadness, and even hate (he did throw the money changers table over in the Temple). Jesus was not true God while he was on Earth, but instead he was A Son of God (the original Greek DOES NOT SAY that Jesus was THE Son of God, it says that Jesus claimed to be A Son of God. A was changed to THE in the King James Bible, and that is why it is always written in italics. Dont believe me? Look it up.) I believe Jesus was sent to Earth by God to die for our sins, but also to show us humans that WE ARE ALL children of God too. The Jews were obsessed with making a hierarchy out of God (some people could not enter the temple at all and only the priests could enter the inner-most chamber, etc.) But Jesus came to say that God is with US ALL. God is not some ghost with a beard in the sky, God is a spirit that is with us always. God does not only belong to a chosen people or to a priestly class. In short, Jesus came to show all of us that GOD DOES LOVE US ALL. That is why God sent a humble servant and not a King of Gold and Wealth (which is what the Jews were expecting).

I will clarify if anyone has any questions.

 

[Mark Kerr]

Garyzilla, you make great points. This very concept (the God/Man) is something that I have given a lot of thought. Its good to have someone with your Bible expertise here on the boards.

Some of my problems with the idea of Kenosis and the Trinity, is that they were man-made theories. Jesus himself never said "I am going to empty my powers...etc." or that "When I go to Heaven I will join with the Father and the Holy Spirit." I am NOT saying this doesnt happen, I am just saying that I always analyze Christian tradition (man-made tradition) for myself.

This problem really puzzles me!

 

[garyzilla]

Rod: Sorry, I wasnt trying to say that I know so much about philosophy that intelligent minds cant disagree. We can disagree about our interpretation of Augustine. What I didnt like was (and you did indeed) accuse me of not reading Augustine and you didnt offer any counter-arguments. You just seemed to brush me off.

Mark, why is faith in God an illogical problem? Maybe God really does exist, and thinking logically from the evidence will lead one to the belief in his existence.

Good question, but the answer is simple. There is not enough scientific evidence for one to logically believe in Gods existence. There just isnt. To illustrate my point, I went to a conference called Evolution and Atheism: One in the Same? or something like that at my university. One of the speakers, who was an evolutionary biologist said There is more scientific evidence for Bigfoot than there is for God. It was a joke, but he was trying to make a point.

Hogg described my belief in God very well when he said it was blind faith. Personally, archeologists could uncover a letter written by Jesus himself that says I am going to pull a fast one on all the Jews in the area with my brand new magic tricks and nothing about my beliefs would change. I am the first to admit that my faith is irrational. I am sure there are many people who wish they could slap me for such blind devotion.

If one believes that Jesus is God, then there are those that have seen God. But if you do not believe the Bible then you can say that noone has seen God. It is that simple.

That is a really good point. In fact, that is the center of a huge theological debate, was Jesus true man? True God? Or Both?

Now, here is when my personal religious beliefs are different than mainstream Christianity: I believe Jesus was a man, he felt pain, sadness, and even hate (he did throw the money changers table over in the Temple). Jesus was not true God while he was on Earth, but instead he was A Son of God (the original Greek DOES NOT SAY that Jesus was THE Son of God, it says that Jesus claimed to be A Son of God. A was changed to THE in the King James Bible, and that is why it is always written in italics. Dont believe me? Look it up.) I believe Jesus was sent to Earth by God to die for our sins, but also to show us humans that WE ARE ALL children of God too. The Jews were obsessed with making a hierarchy out of God (some people could not enter the temple at all and only the priests could enter the inner-most chamber, etc.) But Jesus came to say that God is with US ALL. God is not some ghost with a beard in the sky, God is a spirit that is with us always. God does not only belong to a chosen people or to a priestly class. In short, Jesus came to show all of us that GOD DOES LOVE US ALL. That is why God sent a humble servant and not a King of Gold and Wealth (which is what the Jews were expecting).

I will clarify if anyone has any questions.

First, there is a big differance berween "Hate" and "righteous anger" What Jesus had for the money changers was a "righteous anger" the Bible says " Be Ye angry and sin not"

Second, one only has to do a study on John 1:1-5, and verse 14 to see that Jesus was indeed without a shadow of a doubt God. Studying it in the Greek makes it even more powerful.

 

[Mark Kerr]

First, there is a big differance berween "Hate" and "righteous anger" What Jesus had for the money changers was a "righteous anger" the Bible says " Be Ye angry and sin not"

You are right. Hate was the wrong word. I am going to edit my post and put anger. I should also note that Jesus did not lash-out at the money changer himself, only his behavior. That is also an important note.

As far as Jesus being God, that is much tougher for me to swallow. There are parts of the Bible where Jesus does things it seems only God could do (walk on water and predict future events for example) but Jesus often asks questions to God. The famous one being "Why hast thou Forsaken me?" Wouldnt he already know? Why would he pray to himself to give himself strength? These are questions that turn my noodle into mush!

Shows the limitations of logic now doesnt it?

BTW- Grizzly, why the sudden shit-talking about my foil hat? JEALOUS? I'll sell you one along with a bag of magic beans that prevent Tiger attacks? Need proof? I have had the beans for years and I have never ONCE been attacked by a Tiger! They practically sell themselves!

 

[garyzilla]

You are right. Hate was the wrong word. I am going to edit my post and put anger. I should also note that Jesus did not lash-out at the money changer himself, only his behavior. That is also an important note.

As far as Jesus being God, that is much tougher for me to swallow. There are parts of the Bible where Jesus does things it seems only God could do (walk on water and predict future events for example) but Jesus often asks questions to God. The famous one being "Why hast thou Forsaken me?" Wouldnt he already know? Why would he pray to himself to give himself strength? These are questions that turn my noodle into mush!

Mark if you read the the post for Hogg tha I wrote. It will anwser your questions.