Ask Michael Scally: Why Use Both Clomid and Nolvadex Together for PCT?

UNTIL I POINTED IT OUT, you were completely unaware of the E2 blockade demostrating reduction in prostate and assoc. size etc..
BBC3, this hasn't been demonstrated anywhere. You even said it yourself in your last post that the mechanism was speculative. But go ahead and pretend that the mechanism of action for rat prostate atrophy has been elucidated.
You have remained completely adverse to the idea that E2 may indeed harm the prostate, and even moreso than androgens, so dont try to deny your position now.
I'm averse to the idea because you haven't done anything to substantiate it, except to say that you think it's the case (just like all the other crackpot theories you push). Reminds me of this thread where we argued about the prostate, cancer, E2, and tamoxifen. I posted several academic references on the topic while you just unloaded the usual endless stream of nonsense while learning nothing.
Regarding the RATs. It just so happens that research on every drug man uses starts there. There are enough similarities to draw the line. DON'T pretend there are not.
Yes, research often starts there. But when it comes to human application, it never, ever, ends there. At best, animal data provides a physiological precedent or basis that invites further study in actual humans. You're going to be incredibly lost and confused if you don't make a stark distinction between tentative animal data and actual human data.
The proof is in. E2 is bad for the prostate, so enough.
Proof? LOL. WHERE? I've asked you this same question before and you never have an answer. Maybe in your little world you can make grandiose claims and nobody questions you, but not here.
Your babble is only documenting the weakness of your narrow little mind.
Healthy skepticism is no weakness. However, when you take a mere possibility that has no support in reality and jump to asserting that it's a fact, you're demonstrating nothing but mental foolishness.
 
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Yes, the very practical implication from all this is that nolva alone would be superior to clomid or a nolva/clomid mix, since the clomid (acting as an estrogen) would inhibit LH release form the pituitary, impairing recovery.

x2 here. If you use HCG during cycle correctly and follow up with Nolva there is no need for Clomid. I tried the various combos and I don't like the bitchy sides and blurry vision that Clomid creates. No more Clomid for me.

After my last cycle I ran HCG properly during second half of a long 16 week cycle and followed up with Tamoxifen and the boys were back in biz before week 4 post cycle.

My .02
 
I'm quite glad we have knowledgable people on here to debate these things......BBC not withstanding. ;)

Ask Conci asked, I'm also curious as to whether Dr. Scally has data comparing the three groups of treated patients; Nolva only, Clomid only, and Nolva/Clomid. Without some kind of actual lab results, this is all academic. We, and by we I mean you two, can debate this untl we're blue in the face. But until someone takes the time to collect the data on ACTUAL people, it seem this will just keep going round and round.
 
Allright der CHIZZLE CHEZST. That will be about enough out of your puny little mouth. If I hear it much more I am lival to get stimulated unmerrited.

We all know. I am the opposite of your existance. You bring the books, I bring the Dream. So dont flatter yourself at the ease of which you are allowed to blast the Ducks I float for you.

Back to my initial input. In the past, you did deny that the action of SERMS was a direct result of physical interaction with the Brain. I wont degrade myself to searching for the posts in order to belittle you.

I don't think that it is one bit unfair to assume that the CNS could be providing indirect perhiperal stimulation of the HPTA. The proof is already clear, nerves control every cell in our body.
1) Pleasure/pain/feeling
2) Temperature
3) hormone release
4) Local Growth Factors/stimulus
5) Muscular Control

IT IS NOT UNFAIR TO ASSUME THAT A HORMONE RECEPTOR SITE COULD FEED BACK TO THE HYPOTHALMUS AND REPORT A SURPLUS OR DEFICIENTCY, HENCE STIMULATING A RESPONSE BY THE PITUITARY...

I could make examples of any of the above, over and over. But the most obvious proof would be. If the nerves in that tiny little nut sack of your's worked properly, your brain would have expanded your sack in response to all that hot air you put out a long time ago, and thus your testicles may have been able to mature at puberty. But since they dont they remain overheated, tiny, and malfunctioning.[:o)] But then again, no amount of room would give them relief from that steam bath!!!!1:eek::eek:


BBC3, this hasn't been demonstrated anywhere. You even said it yourself in your last post that the mechanism was speculative. But go ahead and pretend that the mechanism of action for rat prostate atrophy has been elucidated.
I'm averse to the idea because you haven't done anything to substantiate it, except to say that you think it's the case (just like all the other crackpot theories you push). Reminds me of this thread where we argued about the prostate, cancer, E2, and tamoxifen. I posted several academic references on the topic while you just unloaded the usual endless stream of nonsense while learning nothing.
Yes, research often starts there. But when it comes to human application, it never, ever, ends there. At best, animal data provides a physiological precedent or basis that invites further study in actual humans. You're going to be incredibly lost and confused if you don't make a stark distinction between tentative animal data and actual human data. Proof? LOL. WHERE? I've asked you this same question before and you never have an answer. Maybe in your little world you can make grandiose claims and nobody questions you, but not here.
Healthy skepticism is no weakness. However, when you take a mere possibility that has no support in reality and jump to asserting that it's a fact, you're demonstrating nothing but mental foolishness.
 
In the past, you did deny that the action of SERMS was a direct result of physical interaction with the Brain. I wont degrade myself to searching for the posts in order to belittle you.
No, find the posts. Now's your chance to show everyone that you can post a reference, that you can actually back up what you say, and that you're not constantly talking out of your ass. I welcome you, no I implore you, find where I said that and post it. Prove me wrong.

Because I know you can't. Your inability will just make you look like the ass you are.
I don't think that it is one bit unfair to assume that the CNS could be providing indirect perhiperal stimulation of the HPTA. The proof is already clear, nerves control every cell in our body.
As usual, your logic is horrendous. I agree, it's not unfair to assume the possibility that it could occur. But countless things that are conceivable or possible are not the case. Mere possibilities are a far cry from the positive evidence one needs in order to form a rational belief. Also, you're ignoring the data I already posted showing that there IS a direct action. It's not like we're at a loss to explain it without resorting to an unsubstantiated, indirect action.
IT IS NOT UNFAIR TO ASSUME THAT A HORMONE RECEPTOR SITE COULD FEED BACK TO THE HYPOTHALMUS AND REPORT A SURPLUS OR DEFICIENTCY, HENCE STIMULATING A RESPONSE BY THE PITUITARY...
It's not unfair to assume the possibility, but it's certainly unfair to assume the existence of such a phenomenon without a shred of evidence that it actually occurs. It blows my mind that you need someone to explain this to you.
 
NO, actually I did not need anyone to explain that to me. I am here to suggest possibility. I did not deny facts. I NEVER DO. Given that, it is funny how you generate an argument with me, when I am not denying anything factual in nature. But you know I am more than happy to provide the service.:rolleyes: Anything to make you feel better about yourself......

I am going to have to take a different approach with you now. At first I thought I was tired. But I think I am becomming sick of the obstinanace. You are a younger buck than I. My spunk has grown thin and watery in my old age. I guess thats why we leave it all to you youngsters.

Perhaps one day soon when things are a little slower, I will refresh the thread with an intoxicated response and attack. Till then, carry on Ol Son....

And by the way..... JACKASS......
 
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NO, actually I did not need anyone to explain that to me. I am here to suggest possibility. I did not deny facts. I NEVER DO. Given that, it is funny how you generate an argument with me, when I am not denying anything factual in nature. But you know I am more than happy to provide the service.:rolleyes: Anything to make you feel better about yourself......

I am going to have to take a different approach with you now. At first I thought I was tired. But I think I am becomming sick of the obstinanace. You are a younger buck than I. My spunk has grown thin and watery in my old age. I guess thats why we leave it all to you youngsters.

Perhaps one day soon when things are a little slower, I will refresh the thread with an intoxicated response and attack. Till then, carry on Ol Son....

And by the way..... JACKASS......

BBC....I'm very disappointed in you. :(

You can rest when your dead.

Now go take some adderal and get back here....pronto!:popcorn:
 
Sorry, that nasty thing called "work" has been getting me down lately....:mad: The stress is enough to cause any of the symptoms noted at this site...[:o)] Just that time again....:(

I'll be back to my usual self soon enough. Then maybe I'll give him back the keys to his car if he's a good boy. Remember ConciBoy, study hard and eat your veggies, and I just MIGHT make sure you get that shiny new red bicicle this year..! Shes been a good girl lately.....:p As long as she continues beggin for that spankin, I won't have to give you one. WORD......[:o)]


BBC....I'm very disappointed in you. :(

You can rest when your dead.

Now go take some adderal and get back here....pronto!:popcorn:
 
Clomid and E2 "priming" in rat pituitary cells...



Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro

E. Y. Adashi, A. J. Hsueh, T. H. Bambino and S. S. Yen


The direct effects of clomiphene citrate (Clomid), tamoxifen, and estradiol (E2) on the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) were studied in cultured anterior pituitary cells obtained from adult ovariectomized rats. Treatment of pituitary cells with Clomid or enclomid (10(-8) M) in vitro for 2 days resulted in a marked sensitization of the gonadotroph to GnRH as reflected by a 6.5-fold decrease in the ED50 of GnRH in terms of LH release from 2.2 x 10(-9) M in untreated cells to 3.6 x 10(-10) M. Treatment with E2 or Clomid also increased the sensitivity of the gonadotroph to GnRH in terms of FSH release by 4.3- and 3.3-fold respectively. Tamoxifen, a related antiestrogen, comparable to Clomid in terms of its ability to compete with E2 for pituitary estrogen receptors, was without effect on the GnRH-stimulated LH release at a concentration of 10(-7) M. Furthermore, tamoxifen, unlike Clomid, caused an apparent but not statistically significant inhibition of the sensitizing effect of E2 on the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. Our findings suggest that Clomid and its Enclomid isomer, unlike tamoxifen, exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin. "

I know about the human study comparing Tamox/Clomid on sensitising the pituitary to GnRH (Tamox), but this is intresting.

Conciliator...
 
Hey Swifto.........You get around....lol


Hey Conciliator, any reason they use clomid over nolva for diagnosing secondary hypogonadism?
I know it is 2002 but.....

AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF CLINICAL ENDOCRINOLOGISTS
MEDICAL GUIDELINES FOR CLINICAL PRACTICE
FOR THE EVALUATION AND TREATMENT OF HYPOGONADISM
IN ADULT MALE PATIENTS—2002 UPDATE


Clomiphene Stimulation Test.—In the clomiphene
stimulation test, 100 mg of clomiphene citrate is given for
5 to 7 days as an evocative test of the hypothalamic-pituitary
axis. Clomiphene acts by interrupting the negative
feedback loop and thereby stimulating release of
gonadotropin from the pituitary. A doubling of LH and a
20 to 50% increase in FSH are normal results indicative of
an intact hypothalamic-pituitary response (13).


I have tried nolva alone and to be honest it didnt seem to work as well as clomid and nolva, as judged by night time erections, morning wood, and libido.
 
Here's a study showing low-dose Clomid therapy (25mg ED) boosts testosterone by 250% in 4-6 weeks:


Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism, Shabsigh A, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, Goluboff E. Department of Urology, NY Presbyterian Medical Center, New York, NY, USA. J Sex Med. 2005 Sep;2(5):716-21.

AIM: Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio. METHODS: Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed.

RESULTS: The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients.

CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism.This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.



Study showing a hypogonadic 30-year old male, suffering permanent shutdown from steroid abuse, fully recovered natural hormone levels and HPTA function from 2 months of 100mg Clomid therapy:



Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse, Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene. DESIGN: Case report. SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic. PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male.

INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH.

RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis.

CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.



Here's another study showing only 7 days of Clomid therapy increased total testosterone by 100% and, more importantly, free testosterone by over 300% in young men:


The effects of aging in normal men on bioavailable testosterone and luteinizing hormone secretion: response to clomiphene citrate, J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1987 Dec;65(6):1118-26.

Geriatric Research, Education, and Clinical Center, Veterans Administration Medical Center, Seattle, Washington.

Serum testosterone (T) levels in men decline with age while serum LH levels, as measured by RIA, increase. To assess if the decline in serum T levels in healthy aging men is paralleled by an age-related decline in the bioavailable non-sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG)-bound fraction of T and to determine whether there are age-related changes in LH secretion or LH control of T production, we studied 29 young (aged 22-35 yr) and 26 elderly (aged 65-84 yr) healthy men. All men had single random blood samples drawn, and 14 men in each age group underwent frequent blood sampling for 24 h, both before and after 7 days of clomiphene citrate (CC) administration. Both mean 24-h serum total T levels and non-SHBG-bound T were reduced in elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), while estradiol and SHBG levels were similar in the 2 age groups. Serum FSH determined by RIA and LH by RIA and bioassay were higher in the elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), but the ratios of LH bioactivity to immunoreactivity and the LH pulse frequency and amplitude were similar. After CC administration, mean serum total T and non-SHBG-bound levels in young men increased by 100% and 304%, respectively, while in older men these values increased by only 32% and 8%, respectively. However, CC-stimulated LH pulse characteristics and serum levels of estradiol, SHBG, FSH, and bioactive and immunoreactive LH were similar in the 2 groups. Thus, both at baseline and after CC stimulation, elderly men had significantly lower serum total T and non-SHBG-bound (bioavailable) T levels than did young men, despite similar or increased levels of bioactive LH and similar bioactive to immunoreactive LH ratios and LH pulse characteristics. These results suggest that major age-related changes in the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis occur at the level of the testes and are manifested by decreased responsiveness to bioactive LH. Administration of CC to young and elderly men resulted in similar changes in LH pulse characteristics and LH bioactivity and immunoreactivity, suggesting preserved hypothalamic-pituitary responsiveness in the elderly.

I see this as double what William L. suggested: increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline with 20mg of nolva.
Clomid elivated T levels 200%, 300%, and 304% is a bit higher than 142% that nolva did.
 
Dr Scally,what are you thoughts on using something like Clomid or Nolvadex to raise my test levels since i am 65 years old and dont really want to do TRT right now.I still do bodybuilding and lately since i have been using your procol for PCT have noticed i can hold onto a lot more muscle vs not doing any PCT.I started using steroids in 1980 and back then there was no PCT known to follow.I only did 8 week cycles and never had a problem recovering. I used your PCT recomendation and really like the way it helped me after my cycle.I plan on going to a endo the first of the year that specializes in hormone treatment and get a complete bloodwork to see where my hormone levels are and go from there,i Would rather not go on TRT if there is another alternative like Clomid or Nolvadex,the only the thing that bothers me with clomid is the side effects with higher doses.. I do short 8 weeks cycles during the year maby 2 or 3 with moderate doses of test and something like EQ or tren...
 
Often, a person not posting for a time, even an extended time, isn't really the result of a specific decision to stop. It's just how life goes for a time.

So it may not be that he has stopped, so much as perhaps simply be having a break. Hopefully so.
 
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