Ask Michael Scally: Why Use Both Clomid and Nolvadex Together for PCT?

[OhNoYo]

Cause I made up with him and he had no further fight around here... LOL

Really, I think is cause his mommy called him home and he cant come out to play anymore...[)]

R U 2 really STILL beefn!?

 

[barbelle]

I'm bumping this thread. It's 2015. I mean come on.

 

[taco33150]

Bump

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Don't.

 

[Nicolaus]

Bump...

 

[Dr JIM]

It's a thread well worth reading, and critically reviewing from
an evidence based perspective as "both sides" have strengths and weaknesses, and a shame few have IMO.

 

[Baxter513-proton]

Its been 6 years now since the thread. Hopefully BY NOW we have a consensus, do we not?

a) Nolva
b) Clomid
or
c) Nolva + Clomid?

 

[Northern Nutrition]

d) Donald Trump

 

[Nicolaus]

Hi

 

[master.on]

Clomid and E2 "priming" in rat pituitary cells...



Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro

E. Y. Adashi, A. J. Hsueh, T. H. Bambino and S. S. Yen


The direct effects of clomiphene citrate (Clomid), tamoxifen, and estradiol (E2) on the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) were studied in cultured anterior pituitary cells obtained from adult ovariectomized rats. Treatment of pituitary cells with Clomid or enclomid (10(-8) M) in vitro for 2 days resulted in a marked sensitization of the gonadotroph to GnRH as reflected by a 6.5-fold decrease in the ED50 of GnRH in terms of LH release from 2.2 x 10(-9) M in untreated cells to 3.6 x 10(-10) M. Treatment with E2 or Clomid also increased the sensitivity of the gonadotroph to GnRH in terms of FSH release by 4.3- and 3.3-fold respectively. Tamoxifen, a related antiestrogen, comparable to Clomid in terms of its ability to compete with E2 for pituitary estrogen receptors, was without effect on the GnRH-stimulated LH release at a concentration of 10(-7) M. Furthermore, tamoxifen, unlike Clomid, caused an apparent but not statistically significant inhibition of the sensitizing effect of E2 on the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. Our findings suggest that Clomid and its Enclomid isomer, unlike tamoxifen, exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin. "

I know about the human study comparing Tamox/Clomid on sensitising the pituitary to GnRH (Tamox), but this is intresting.

Conciliator...

Nice post
OTOH Tamoxifen is better than Clomid in stimulating Testosterone
Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. - PubMed - NCBI

Nolva vs Clomid vs both?
IMO the answer is neither

as full testicles will take many months of low to moderate HCG use to fully recover (by full recover I mean an increase in size too not just recovering Test+sperm production).

I just don't take it is wise to use SERMs for extended periods. Personally I had a hard time getting rid of Nolva visual side effects after 3 months at only 10 mg ED.
So IMO HCG + tiny dose AI is better

 

[ddp7]

Well tamoxifen IME is the perfect link between my brain and my nuts.Clomid is just a VERY good ilusion of the recovery feeling.But not sure about future pct plannings.
I mean after moderate AAS use seems to be wise do a little PCT.I dont know just my journal notes.
An AI is not the way to recovery your sexual health imo.
If in the future when my package arrives I would running some very low doses of test with anavar at 40mg during 8weeks my PCT could be:

Two weeks in total of 10mg of tamoxifen QD and maybe the first three days a very little dose of clomid.In my case clomid scared the shit out of me like panic full mode nervous etc.No nice.
BTW tamoxifen sublingual is awfulTHAT was my problem with angry.Via oral w/o problems.

Do you like this planning Dr Scally?

 

[master.on]

Its been 6 years now since the thread. Hopefully BY NOW we have a consensus, do we not?

a) Nolva
b) Clomid
or
c) Nolva + Clomid?

Here we go with another rant

During a cycle 2 thing athropy/downregulate

1 Testicles make less Testosterone and sperm
2 The pituitary gland makes less LH and FSH

Recovering #1 can take a long time
only HCG (and maybe some pricey HMG) seems to work
Clomid/Nolva (and AIs to a lesser degree) can only increase natural LH/FSH so much, while testis require a stronger chemical signal that only moderate dosages of HCG seem to provide (HCG works like LH and a bit like FSH)

#2 is the easiest to recover
no studies have proved that LH/FSH production can be PERMANENTLY atrophied from AAS use.

 

[SuperMaroid]

During a cycle 2 thing athropy/downregulate

1 Testicles make less Testosterone and sperm
2 The pituitary gland makes less LH and FSH

Recovering #1 can take a long time
only HCG (and maybe some pricey HMG) seems to work
Clomid/Nolva (and AIs to a lesser degree) can only increase natural LH/FSH so much, while testis require a stronger chemical signal that only moderate dosages of HCG seem to provide (HCG works like LH and a bit like FSH)

#2 is the easiest to recover
no studies have proved that LH/FSH production can be PERMANENTLY atrophied from AAS use.

Do you just copy and paste everything?

Nolva vs Clomid vs both?
IMO the answer is neither

This is horrible advice. Nolva and Clomid for PCT.

 

[BirdieNumNum]

Tamoxifen worked well alone for me and clomid emotional sides are SHIT AS HELL. Tamox we love youu <3

 

[ddp7]

@Jay Monks I guess my mental focus ability is super great bc my clomid experience is like an agressive discussion where you have a lot of fear because you smell the death.Terrorific feelings.anyways,not sure what sides you had but those was the mines.

 

[BirdieNumNum]

Bro I don't really understand that lol. But clomid has wrecked my mind every time I have taken it.

 

[Northern Nutrition]

@Jay Monks I guess my mental focus ability is super great bc my clomid experience is like an agressive discussion where you have a lot of fear because you smell the death.Terrorific feelings.anyways,not sure what sides you had but those was the mines.

You shouldn't be allowed on the internet.

 

[ddp7]

Bro I don't really understand that lol. But clomid has wrecked my mind every time I have taken it.

Could you describe your mind experience with clomid?Thanks

 

[ddp7]

You shouldn't be allowed on the internet.

Hahah very funny c'mon bro just gear science.The way is crazy but the leson is forever

 

[BirdieNumNum]

Could you describe your mind experience with clomid?Thanks

extreme anxiety, paranoid, flashes of absolute rage - followed by absolute regret.. then the depression.... NAH BRO