Avodart - question for the experts

[solo47]

Okay, I've read everything from horror stories of lost libido, deep depression, and eternally low testosterone levels to songs of priase as the result of using Proscar® or Avodart®. Certainly some BBs feel that using either one of these will work against their goals.

So, okay, I've been prescribed Avodart (dutasteride) to help shrink my advanced BPH at the full dose of 5 mg each day. I've read Anthony Roberts say 2.5 mg each day should not adversely affect any bodybuilder using exogenous testosterone, but my doc said 5 mg is the proper dose and it will either affect me adversely or it won't, no matter what the dose.

Sounds like there's plenty of advantages to running Avodart (rather then, say, the dreaded operation that will never allow me to ejaculate again), and the doc insists it will not lower total testosterone (just DHT at the prostate). However, the list of potential side affects says otherwise and I've read enough complaints in personal testimonials.

What I want to know — from Anthony, from Doc Scally, or from anyone who knows anything about this matter — is whether running this Avodart will adversely affect my favourite sport, iron lifting, or if it might lessen the effects (and pleasures) of my AAS use.

Will it?

Solo

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Okay, I've read everything from horror stories of lost libido, deep depression, and eternally low testosterone levels to songs of priase as the result of using Proscar® or Avodart®. Certainly some BBs feel that using either one of these will work against their goals.

So, okay, I've been prescribed Avodart (dutasteride) to help shrink my advanced BPH at the full dose of 5 mg each day. I've read Anthony Roberts say 2.5 mg each day should not adversely affect any bodybuilder using exogenous testosterone, but my doc said 5 mg is the proper dose and it will either affect me adversely or it won't, no matter what the dose.

Sounds like there's plenty of advantages to running Avodart (rather then, say, the dreaded operation that will never allow me to ejaculate again), and the doc insists it will not lower total testosterone (just DHT at the prostate). However, the list of potential side affects says otherwise and I've read enough complaints in personal testimonials.

What I want to know — from Anthony, from Doc Scally, or from anyone who knows anything about this matter — is whether running this Avodart will adversely affect my favourite sport, iron lifting, or if it might lessen the effects (and pleasures) of my AAS use.

Will it?

Solo

The first (immediate) thing you need to do is to never read anything by Anthony Roberts again, ever. I have read some of his trash. He does not know a thing about physiology. He is a joke.

Regarding dutasteride or finasteride, 0.5/5 mg is the dose, respectively. If you are taking exogenous AAS, this dose might not be adequate to decrease DHT. Obtain a baseline as a monitor of effect. Does toy physician know about the AAS? As far as BB, the drug will have no effect (none). I have references on this, but not immediately at my reach.

For BPH, both 5-AR inhibitors take months, >3-6, to demonstrate a clinical effect. If the BPH is problematic, you might want to add an alpha blocker, possibly only temporarily.

 

[solo47]

I meant Bill Roberts, not Anthony Roberts!

Solo

Okay, I've read everything from horror stories of lost libido, deep depression, and eternally low testosterone levels to songs of priase as the result of using Proscar® or Avodart®. Certainly some BBs feel that using either one of these will work against their goals.

So, okay, I've been prescribed Avodart (dutasteride) to help shrink my advanced BPH at the full dose of 5 mg each day. I've read Anthony Roberts say 2.5 mg each day should not adversely affect any bodybuilder using exogenous testosterone, but my doc said 5 mg is the proper dose and it will either affect me adversely or it won't, no matter what the dose.

Sounds like there's plenty of advantages to running Avodart (rather then, say, the dreaded operation that will never allow me to ejaculate again), and the doc insists it will not lower total testosterone (just DHT at the prostate). However, the list of potential side affects says otherwise and I've read enough complaints in personal testimonials.

What I want to know — from Anthony, from Doc Scally, or from anyone who knows anything about this matter — is whether running this Avodart will adversely affect my favourite sport, iron lifting, or if it might lessen the effects (and pleasures) of my AAS use.

Will it?

Solo

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I meant Bill Roberts, not Anthony Roberts!

Solo

What a world of difference! having said that, and knowing Bill, I would like to see the original post. The Avodart does is a mistake in decimal points (see my post).

 

[BBC3]

Solo, Have you ever controlled E2 on cycle, or off. I know that there are SERMs out there that are documented to shrink prostate and associated significantly.... That right, a reduction is estrogen actually reduces prostate size. Perhaps DHT is not your problem. You know lowering DHT defeats the goals, especailly with you love of Masteron. Why not give it a try before the Finasteride/durasteride. Look up Toremifene (fareston)... Read the prescribing info....

 

[solo47]

What a world of difference! having said that, and knowing Bill, I would like to see the original post. The Avodart does is a mistake in decimal points (see my post).

Hey Doc. The mistake is mine (again). I see the package lists the dosage as 0.4 mg, and I'm certain that Bill suggested a smaller dosage of half a tab (but it's tough to break gel-caps in half!). He wrote (with regard to testosterone):

"Dutasteride (Avodart) can be used to keep DHT levels normalized despite heavy testosterone use. Most users do not do this out of concern for excessively reducing DHT, which may be a valid concern at full label dosing, but which I do not think is a concern with low-dose use (½ tab every other day) in the context of a high-dose testosterone cycle.

Finasteride (Proscar) may be employed instead, if one wishes to use a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor. In this case, in the context of a high-dose testosterone cycle, one tab (5 mg) of this drug per day is unlikely to excessively decrease DHT."

I'm already on Flomax® (which is the best-known a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor), so it should work in combination with the Avodart®. Avodart is supposed to lessen the chances of prostate malignancy by 25% and in six months it should shrink the goddamned thing. I just want to feel more certain that my AAS enhanced libido & body can keep living the high life. (I'm on HRT, but I still cycle off and go down to about 100 mg of Test cyp EW for several months at a time.)

Yes, I do love my masteron, so this is a painful time for me.

Solo

 

[solo47]

Hey Doc. The mistake is mine (again). I see the package lists the dosage as 0.4 mg, and I'm certain that Bill suggested a smaller dosage of half a tab (but it's tough to break gel-caps in half!). He wrote (with regard to testosterone):

"Dutasteride (Avodart) can be used to keep DHT levels normalized despite heavy testosterone use. Most users do not do this out of concern for excessively reducing DHT, which may be a valid concern at full label dosing, but which I do not think is a concern with low-dose use (½ tab every other day) in the context of a high-dose testosterone cycle.

Finasteride (Proscar) may be employed instead, if one wishes to use a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor. In this case, in the context of a high-dose testosterone cycle, one tab (5 mg) of this drug per day is unlikely to excessively decrease DHT."

I'm already on Flomax® (which is the best-known a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor), so it should work in combination with the Avodart®. Avodart is supposed to lessen the chances of prostate malignancy by 25% and in six months it should shrink the goddamned thing. I just want to feel more certain that my AAS enhanced libido & body can keep living the high life. (I'm on HRT, but I still cycle off and go down to about 100 mg of Test cyp EW for several months at a time.)

Yes, I do love my masteron, so this is a painful time for me.

Solo

Well, Bill, Doc, is "excessively reducing DHT" a valid concern at 0.5 mg ED? My urologist says not likely, but only trying it out will tell the tale for sure (and it's not to do with the amount of of Avodart run). Remember that since I'm on HRT and still run fairly heavy cycles, I may need a lot of Avodart to have effect.

Solo

 

[BBC3]

I am not sure if I am understanding. Why are you so worried about DHT but still willing to TRT and cycle? Does it not interest you at all that the Serm I referred to will shrink your prostate?? And thus you could potentially avoid the Avodart? Are you afraid the DHT is causing cancer. You holding back an elevated PSA?? Of course I am not sure of the long term consequences of the Serm in particular. But then again who knows the long term issues with Avodart?? What if E2 is indeed a strong cause of Prostate Cancer? What if reducing DHT only opens the door for even more E2 to bite??

It just seems odd that you would dismiss so easily when Serms are so commonly taken by steroid users.... I would appreciate if you get the chance to ask your urologist what his thoughts are on E2's role in prostate issues, and what he thinks about that particular SERM for prostate size reduction.

Well, Bill, Doc, is "excessively reducing DHT" a valid concern at 0.5 mg ED? My urologist says not likely, but only trying it out will tell the tale for sure (and it's not to do with the amount of of Avodart run). Remember that since I'm on HRT and still run fairly heavy cycles, I may need a lot of Avodart to have effect.

Solo

 

[Conciliator]

I know that there are SERMs out there that are documented to shrink prostate and associated significantly.... That right, a reduction is estrogen actually reduces prostate size.

I know you'll hate this, because 1) you expect people to just take your word for everything and 2) you criticize me for being able to back up what I say, but do you have a reference?

 

[Bill Roberts]

I'm sorry, I didn't answer this until now as the first time in, I'd seen this as being a question about an Anthony Roberts statement, and then later on saw that Dr Scally had given a fine reply.

Ordinarily the best thing is to not read more into my statements than they actually say. For example, if saying that half of a 5 mg tab (assuming tablets) does not cause any problem for a bb'er using exogenous testosterone, this doesn't mean that I'm saying that a dose higher than this must do so. It means that I knew of a good number of cases where this worked fine, none where it didn't, and on considering the literature information of the drug and its pharmacology it is completely consistent that this should be fine.

The full 5 mg tablet (if that is the dose conveniently available, which often is the case) per day may be perfectly good for many or most if taking testosterone at doses typical for bb'ing (500 mg/week or more) and possibly so even with less testosterone than that.

There are horror stories out there but there are horror stories about Splenda as well. I don't know how seriously to take them. There are people that are going to be stricken with various maladies at some point in their life, and some of them will have started a new drug shortly before this malady was due to strike them. When reports are scattered and relatively rare, it's hard to know what to make of them.

Flomax isn't a 5AR inhibitor and in fact does nothing to reduce BPH, but only to improve urinary flow.

The LEF Ultra Natural Prostate formula seems to be a very fine one, both from considering its ingredients and amounts thereof, and personal experience. While I don't know if it would properly be described as BPH, typically by about 6 weeks into a cycle I have reduced urinary flow. The LEF product reverses this rather quickly even while still on-cycle.

It isn't trivially-priced, but considering the seriousness of your condition I'd certainly give it a try.

Lastly, it would be reasonable to consider the idea of NOT USING TESTOSTERONE when having this problem. While the assays used to determine "anabolic/androgenic ratio" have fairly little overall validity, they are in fact valid assays for prostate enlargement.

Testosterone is, unlike most of the synthetics, potentiated (made more powerful) in the prostate.

I would consider using whatever relatively minimal amount of testosterone kept me feeling good, for example 100-200 mg/week, combined with a synthetic injectable of your preference.

If long-term inhibition isn't an issue for you -- and it sounds as if it's not, as you say you're on HRT anyway -- and if Deca doesn't give you depression or impotency, this is one of the cases where Deca would not only be a reasonable choice but a great one. For example, 400 mg/week Deca plus 100-200 mg/week testosterone.

The points already made by others regarding the benefits to keeping E2 to low-normal also are very important.

 

[BBC3]

YES, Look up the prescribing info on the SERM I referenced above. You will find the statements in the company's literature.

I know you'll hate this, because 1) you expect people to just take your word for everything and 2) you criticize me for being able to back up what I say, but do you have a reference?

 

[solo47]

I'm sorry, I didn't answer this until now as the first time in, I'd seen this as being a question about an Anthony Roberts statement, and then later on saw that Dr Scally had given a fine reply.

Thanks for replying, Bill, and for being patient with my flow of misinformation. I really do know the difference between an Anthony Roberts (not even his real name) and Bill Roberts. I just had a brain glitch for a moment.

Ordinarily the best thing is to not read more into my statements than they actually say. For example, if saying that half of a 5 mg tab (assuming tablets) does not cause any problem for a bb'er using exogenous testosterone, this doesn't mean that I'm saying that a dose higher than this must do so. It means that I knew of a good number of cases where this worked fine, none where it didn't, and on considering the literature information of the drug and its pharmacology it is completely consistent that this should be fine.

Yes, I understand this.

The full 5 mg tablet (if that is the dose conveniently available, which often is the case) per day may be perfectly good for many or most if taking testosterone at doses typical for bb'ing (500 mg/week or more) and possibly so even with less testosterone than that.

You appear to be referring to Proscar® (finasteride), which has the 5 mg tabs. Avodart® (dutasteride) gel-caps are 0.4 mg each.

There are horror stories out there but there are horror stories about Splenda as well. I don't know how seriously to take them. There are people that are going to be stricken with various maladies at some point in their life, and some of them will have started a new drug shortly before this malady was due to strike them. When reports are scattered and relatively rare, it's hard to know what to make of them.

Guess I'll have to run the Avodart and see what happens. I just don't want to lose anything AAS has given me!

Flomax isn't a 5AR inhibitor and in fact does nothing to reduce BPH, but only to improve urinary flow.

Yes, another mistake on my part. It's an alpha blocker (which Doc Scally suggested), but my urologist says it works very well in combination with Avodart.

The LEF Ultra Natural Prostate formula seems to be a very fine one, both from considering its ingredients and amounts thereof, and personal experience. While I don't know if it would properly be described as BPH, typically by about 6 weeks into a cycle I have reduced urinary flow. The LEF product reverses this rather quickly even while still on-cycle. It isn't trivially-priced, but considering the seriousness of your condition I'd certainly give it a try.

I've not heard of this, Bill, but I have tried all sorts of natural products for years. I had BPH even off cycle and these products barely helped. I think I'm ready for the Avodart and the urologist thought so, too. He thought I was too young for the slicing up of the prostate operation and for that I'm grateful. With Avodart (& patience) I should need no further natural products, don't you agree?

Lastly, it would be reasonable to consider the idea of NOT USING TESTOSTERONE when having this problem. While the assays used to determine "anabolic/androgenic ratio" have fairly little overall validity, they are in fact valid assays for prostate enlargement.

If you're saying exogenous testosterone aggravates BPH, I am well aware of that. I'm on HRT, as I said, so stopping exogenous testosterone is not a choice. And since it appears I'll always be "having this problem" of BPH, the idea of never cycling AAS again is not a pleasant choice. In fact, this is what I'm asking about.

Testosterone is, unlike most of the synthetics, potentiated (made more powerful) in the prostate.

Not sure what this implies, but it sounds like you're saying Avodart could lessen its effect.

I would consider using whatever relatively minimal amount of testosterone kept me feeling good, for example 100-200 mg/week, combined with a synthetic injectable of your preference.

I hope you mean between cycles, maybe even only one cycle per year?

My main doc has me on testosterone gel (which I use between cycles) but it is most unsatisfactory. I can live on 100 to 200 mg of Test cyp/week, but it looks like I will have to get my own prescription, so to speak. You mean just stay on that, w/o cycling?

If long-term inhibition isn't an issue for you -- and it sounds as if it's not, as you say you're on HRT anyway -- and if Deca doesn't give you depression or impotency, this is one of the cases where Deca would not only be a reasonable choice but a great one. For example, 400 mg/week Deca plus 100-200 mg/week testosterone.

if I had a choice of another AAS, I would probably go with masteron, but I believe that's counter-productive. So my second choice would be EQ, which has always helped my joints. (May have to cough up the cash and get back on GH too.)

The points already made by others regarding the benefits to keeping E2 to low-normal also are very important.

I regularly run arimidex, which should take care of things there. I run HCG too.

But, Bill, to cut to the chase: (1)If I end this cycle and go down to about 200 mg EW of Test with maybe some EQ, would the Avodart impair my libido or my body building? and (2)Are you saying I should never cycle AAS again in the larger amounts I'm now on? (Hey, man, I look good for 60!)

Solo

 

[Bill Roberts]

Thanks for replying, Bill, and for being patient with my flow of misinformation. I really do know the difference between an Anthony Roberts (not even his real name) and Bill Roberts. I just had a brain glitch for a moment.

You appear to be referring to Proscar® (finasteride), which has the 5 mg tabs. Avodart® (dutasteride) gel-caps are 0.4 mg each.

You're quite right. A brain glitch of my own. I was thinking of finasteride, for which there's a lot more track record of cases that I've known of.

Guess I'll have to run the Avodart and see what happens. I just don't want to lose anything AAS has given me!

The potential problem with being low on DHT is having not enough androgenic CNS effect if not using any injectable or oral anabolic steroid. And you will know, by feel and how you perform in the gym, if this is the case.

It isn't the case that there's a substantial anabolic quality associated with typical DHT levels, and what there is, is easily substituted for by a quite small amount of injected or oral anabolic steroids.

I've not heard of this, Bill, but I have tried all sorts of natural products for years. I had BPH even off cycle and these products barely helped. I think I'm ready for the Avodart and the urologist thought so, too. He thought I was too young for the slicing up of the prostate operation and for that I'm grateful. With Avodart (& patience) I should need no further natural products, don't you agree?

You might not, but if it were me I would do it. It's not that expensive to buy a bottle and see if you get prompt and favorable results or not. If you don't, then don't buy another.

If you're saying exogenous testosterone aggravates BPH, I am well aware of that. I'm on HRT, as I said, so stopping exogenous testosterone is not a choice. And since it appears I'll always be "having this problem" of BPH, the idea of never cycling AAS again is not a pleasant choice. In fact, this is what I'm asking about.

You could discontinue the HRT and only use otherwise-acquired anabolic steroids.

if I had a choice of another AAS, I would probably go with masteron, but I believe that's counter-productive.

No, Masteron has less adverse effect on the prostate for a given anabolic effect than is the case with testosterone.

So my second choice would be EQ, which has always helped my joints. (May have to cough up the cash and get back on GH too.)

EQ would be a perfectly reasonable choice as well. In fact, if you don't do anything to maintain T production (HCG) or include any testosterone in your injections, you'd want to include an aromatizable steroid, though you would want to keep E2 levels to low normal. A Masteron/EQ could stack could be a great choice for your situation.

Higher doses would be used during cycles, and more modest doses, such as say a total of 250 mg/week, when "off." A different form of HRT basically, using compounds that have the advantages of not being potentiated in the prostate.

When using more EQ during a cycle, I'd find what dose of an AI kept your estrogen levels low-normal, which it seems you're already familiar with. Off-cycle, you could just keep the EQ use down to what gave you low-normal estradiol.

Since you're now running HCG, if wanting to continue that you wouldn't need the EQ while off-cycle, and would want to use the Arimidex.

The Avodart would be useful if using HCG or injecting testosterone, and not of much use if using a Masteron/EQ stack.

But, Bill, to cut to the chase: (1)If I end this cycle and go down to about 200 mg EW of Test with maybe some EQ, would the Avodart impair my libido or my body building? and (2)Are you saying I should never cycle AAS again in the larger amounts I'm now on? (Hey, man, I look good for 60!)

Solo

I don't think the Avodart will impair your bodybuilding. You might want to keep on the milder side during cycles such as the 500-750 mg/week total range.

Ideally you'd maintain a situation where you don't need the Flomax. I wouldn't be surprised if keeping estrogen low, using the 5AR inhibitor or not injecting testosterone or HCG, and taking the LEF prostate product that you might not need the Flomax.

Though if you do need it, then certainly use it. But it would be a great sign and reference point if the situation improved to where you don't need it.

 

[Conciliator]

YES, Look up the prescribing info on the SERM I referenced above. You will find the statements in the company's literature.

I looked up the prescribing info for Fareston and saw nothing about BPH. Can you provide a link or a quote?

 

[BBC3]

http://www.fareston.com/pdfs/Prescribing_Info.pdf

They mention it in the carcinogenesis.. Imparement of Fertility section. to the above manufacturer link. Of course they provide no detail to study and not third party I am sure. They do not really elaborate as to why the drug caused this. I am only assuming it is the reduction of E2 to the prostate. I am still working on it and waiting to see more data. It may be the first out admission of this type... Time will tell. I just found it interesting as this was the first find I had linking E2 with Prostate size. They state this particular serm is not a good HPTA stimulator as well.

I looked up the prescribing info for Fareston and saw nothing about BPH. Can you provide a link or a quote?

 

[BBC3]

The plot thickens......

 

[solo47]

The Avodart would be useful if using HCG or injecting testosterone, and not of much use if using a Masteron/EQ stack.

Hi Bill. You're saying Avodart would not be of much use if I was running a Masteron/EQ stack (w/o testosterone)? How could that be? I still need to block DHT, no matter where it comes from. And I have BPH even off-cycle.

You're also saying to run a low-level testosterone (say Test cyp @ 200 mg EW) & continue the Adex & HCG for my own HRT OR run the Masteron/EQ stack, dropping the Adex & HCG? Or do you mean that I could run the Mast/EQ in addition to the low-level testosterone (with Adex & HCG)?

Sorry for more questions. I just want to be perfectly clear on your valued advice.

And I will order some LEF Ultra Natural Prostate, though I have little faith in herbals any more.

Thanks for the time and trouble, Bill, Doc Scally, and even BBC.

Solo

 

[Bill Roberts]

Hi Bill. You're saying Avodart would not be of much use if I was running a Masteron/EQ stack (w/o testosterone)? How could that be? I still need to block DHT, no matter where it comes from. And I have BPH even off-cycle.

DHT is not produced from either Masteron or EQ.

A 5-AR inhibitor will have zero effect with Masteron. With EQ it might reduce conversion of boldenone to so-called "1-testosterone" but I don't think this would be an important difference.

You're also saying to run a low-level testosterone (say Test cyp @ 200 mg EW) & continue the Adex & HCG for my own HRT OR run the Masteron/EQ stack, dropping the Adex & HCG? Or do you mean that I could run the Mast/EQ in addition to the low-level testosterone (with Adex & HCG)?

The synthetics have the advantage of having no conversion-to-DHT issues. And "despite" the fact that DHT levels almost undoubtedly are greatly reduced during cycles with substantial amounts of EQ and/or Masteron (I don't have measurements though, but it pretty much has to be so) there are no problems from the nervous system not having usual amount of stimulation from DHT, as these steroids apparently fill the gap just fine.

With Avodart one can pretty much kill DHT if desired, but as you've noted that can adversely effect performance in the gym and adversely affect libido.

So either partial or complete substitution of these synthetics for testosterone would, at amounts giving equivalent anabolic effect, be expected to reduce prostate issues without adversely affecting lifting performance or libido.

 

[BBC3]

I am noting a point that may be omitted. While Masteron is not affected by the finestaride,etc. I believe masterone is a derivative of DHT. With that said, it should not be thought that the application of Masteron will not cause the affects that DHT renders. So in essence you may be removing the DHT with the Inhibitor, but you are still adding a finished product of DHT effectively. How those metabolites exhert on the body I am sure, is speculated at best...I could be wrong.

 

[Bill Roberts]

Masteron is not potentiated by 5AR and therefore, unlike testosterone, does not result in higher activity in the prostate than in the rest of the body.

I know there are countless steroid writers who are not medicinal chemists and have no education in that field but play medicinal chemist and announce how things are "DHT derivatives and therefore," etc but they really and truly don't know what they are talking about when claiming that this supposedly proves what they say it does.

Everyone would do well to forevermore ignore every single statement that is based on "because it's a DHT derivative" or "because it's a 19-nor."

The compounds need to be evaluated based on their own properties, not on mistakenly-conceived "family" thinking.