Confusion with PCT and HCG

[TheEternalBlaDe]

Hi, So I was starting to prepare my PCT which will be in several weeks. Originally I thought I would be okay with just Nolvadex 40/40/40/20/20/20. I am on cyp400/w and trenE200/w. I have received my blood work back today and my LH is 0.1 or less. My testies never shrunk. I have assumed this and have been trying to learn about HCG for post cycle. I get so many various different opinions online and offline. The person in gym tells me twice a week 3000IU and 2000IU for 4 weeks(I thought he first said 300IU and 200IU, that seems like a very large dose to me per week). An IFBB pro online says start 2 to 3 weeks after last long esther and then do every other day for a month lowering the dosage and then others say do it during cycle or dont do it at all. Any recommendations so that I keep my gains and go back to normal in the best and safest possible way?

Also my chortisol on a scale of 171 to 536 is very high at 672, is this something to be alarmed about at the present time? Thank you.

 

[TheEternalBlaDe]

Follow Up: The are my current bloods from taken fasted 2 days ago (its in german but should be easy to understand)

 

[Burrr]

The word around here is to take your HCG right up until PCT. Not during. 250 IU a couple times a week should be good. Definitely doesn't need 2000 or 3000 IU and stop it before you start with the Nolva.
You can probably use half that dose of Nolva. Add a little clomid, its known to have a synergistic effect with nolva

 

[The Terminator]

How old are you, how long will you be on cycle? May or may not be necessary but it can certainly help you not feel like crap in the 3ish weeks from your last shot to pct. 2000iu eod is more for guys that have been on a long time or for fertility.

 

[TheEternalBlaDe]

I am almost 38, I have been on cycle since Last October, started with 200mg test then december added in 200mg deca then increase dosage In Jan to 400mg test 320mg dec and rode that till 3 weeks ago when i started the end of the cycles which is test 400mg and trenE 200mg. In 7 week I will be going into PCT. During above cycle period I used anavar and dbol for about 5 weeks a few months apart.

 

[The Terminator]

So around 8 months, I’d think hCG would be beneficial to use in the 3 weeks before you start serms especially at 38 and because you haven’t used hCG on cycle, could benefit adding clomid with the tamoxifen too. You could have some atrophy that you can’t really see, unless you’re skilled at measuring or using an orchidometer lol. Might be hard to see or feel cause I don’t think it’ll shrink by 50% or something crazy.

 

[TheEternalBlaDe]

Thanks terminator for the great response! So what would you suggest is a good dosage and plan from my last inject?(slipped my mind the last two weeks of cycle i should stay on test only I remember reading, so 9weeks left). I have a 5000IU Ovigil and 100pc nolva. I didn't buy any clomid cause I just am fearful that a side effect could permantely mess up your eyes and mine are sensitive.

(Forgot to mention I use aromasin 0.5mg eod)

 

[The Terminator]

Thanks terminator for the great response! So what would you suggest is a good dosage and plan from my last inject?(slipped my mind the last two weeks of cycle i should stay on test only I remember reading, so 9weeks left). I have a 5000IU Ovigil and 100pc nolva. I didn't buy any clomid cause I just am fearful that a side effect could permantely mess up your eyes and mine are sensitive.

(Forgot to mention I use aromasin 0.5mg eod)

The Dr Scally Power PCt which can be found on this site or google calls for 2000iu eod day 1-20, so 10 total shots, but you can probably do much less than that, the power pct is meant for those that are real shut down which is why the doses for everything is so high. I don’t have any blood tests but while I was on trt after a year I started hCG and I could feel and see a difference at 500iu eod or 3x week, but that’s not the same situation since I was on test. Anyway you could try less than 2000iu if you wish.

I think the chances of getting vision disturbances is small, under 10%, according to 1 study they said 1.5% of women in the study had vision issues. I’ve been on clomid for a couple weeks, trying to pct after 20 months of trt and a few cycles in that time, have a thread in this section. I haven’t noticed anything bad from clomid, I have been noticing the eye floaters that I already had because I’m paranoid too but nothing I’ve noticed. Anyway I’m planning on longer pct than normal, using hCG still just for better functioning testicles even tho I used it the last 8 months on trt.

 

[LeoTC]

Use the HCG as you wind down your cycle. Last ppins on the same day, then wait the requisite period and begin PCT.

 

[TheEternalBlaDe]

I have been doing some more digging and something i wasn't told but now found out is that HCG that comes with 2 amps, one with HCG and one with sodium chloride shouldnt be mixed and put into the fridge. The potency will be lost. So the sodium chloride it comes with should be thrown away and instead get a bottle of bacteriostatic water, then it should last up to about 30 days.

 

[Old]

Follow Up: The are my current bloods from taken fasted 2 days ago (its in german but should be easy to understand)

There are a couple sticky threads you need to read through Steroid Post Cycle Therapy and ASIH Treatment

Your current blood work shows the T is too high to start PCT. Some points to note in the above threads:

1. If you have been on T for a long time without hcg, then you might do well to take it for a few weeks before PCT to help wakeup the testicles (whether they seem shrunk or not). Dosages such as 5000 iu a week for a few weeks might be a place to start, though check the thread. Some just skip hcg and if PCT fails, then start it and try all over.
2. Before starting SERM, you much have TT in the hypogonadal range. You can calculate based on what you have been taking. You could also do blood work though that takes extra $. In your case you want to see it below 8 nmol/l.
3. If you have been using Nandralone (or similar) you need to be off it for 4-6 weeks before PCT regardless of TT levels. Longer if using higher amounts. Otherwise, PCT will fail.
4. Once TT is low (including residual amounts generated from using hcg) then you must frontload your SERM(s), then proceed with the daily dose for 4-6 weeks.

The principles involved are due to both the hypothalmic response being suppressed as well as the testicles shut down. All residual androgens and E2 will interfere with startup - so these must be low. Some androgens have long lasting metabolites that register with the hypothalamus and thus prevent startup regardless of E2 or effects of SERMs. If testicles have been 'dead' a long time, it will take longer to 'awaken' them and hcg can play a role here, allowing one to continue to blast rather than suffer an extended time with low T.

It is important to read those threads even though there is a lot of discussion - perhaps even more due to info one can glean from it.

 

[TheEternalBlaDe]

thank you for such a details response! I will check over that post you mentioned.

There are a couple sticky threads you need to read through Steroid Post Cycle Therapy and ASIH Treatment

Your current blood work shows the T is too high to start PCT. Some points to note in the above threads:

1. If you have been on T for a long time without hcg, then you might do well to take it for a few weeks before PCT to help wakeup the testicles (whether they seem shrunk or not). Dosages such as 5000 iu a week for a few weeks might be a place to start, though check the thread. Some just skip hcg and if PCT fails, then start it and try all over.
2. Before starting SERM, you much have TT in the hypogonadal range. You can calculate based on what you have been taking. You could also do blood work though that takes extra $. In your case you want to see it below 8 nmol/l.
3. If you have been using Nandralone (or similar) you need to be off it for 4-6 weeks before PCT regardless of TT levels. Longer if using higher amounts. Otherwise, PCT will fail.
4. Once TT is low (including residual amounts generated from using hcg) then you must frontload your SERM(s), then proceed with the daily dose for 4-6 weeks.

The principles involved are due to both the hypothalmic response being suppressed as well as the testicles shut down. All residual androgens and E2 will interfere with startup - so these must be low. Some androgens have long lasting metabolites that register with the hypothalamus and thus prevent startup regardless of E2 or effects of SERMs. If testicles have been 'dead' a long time, it will take longer to 'awaken' them and hcg can play a role here, allowing one to continue to blast rather than suffer an extended time with low T.

It is important to read those threads even though there is a lot of discussion - perhaps even more due to info one can glean from it.

 

[Burrr]

Being on cycle since October, and being 38 means you are in for for a difficult recovery.
You will likely feel like shit for a while.

Drop the tren right now.
Reduce the test to 100mg a week while you gather the shit you need for PCT.
Start taking the hcg now, don't worry about the shelf life because 5000iu is not going to last long anyway.
Get more hcg.
Take low dose clomid with the nolva after a few weeks of being off of test and tren.
Order some boner pills, and give your girl a warning that the sex is about to go away for a while.

 

[The Terminator]

I have been doing some more digging and something i wasn't told but now found out is that HCG that comes with 2 amps, one with HCG and one with sodium chloride shouldnt be mixed and put into the fridge. The potency will be lost. So the sodium chloride it comes with should be thrown away and instead get a bottle of bacteriostatic water, then it should last up to about 30 days.

The bac water will help keep it sterile but I don’t think it makes a difference in how long it lasts, but I’d recommend bac water. You should also get sterile vials to store the hCG in.

 

[The Terminator]

There are a couple sticky threads you need to read through Steroid Post Cycle Therapy and ASIH Treatment

Your current blood work shows the T is too high to start PCT. Some points to note in the above threads:

1. If you have been on T for a long time without hcg, then you might do well to take it for a few weeks before PCT to help wakeup the testicles (whether they seem shrunk or not). Dosages such as 5000 iu a week for a few weeks might be a place to start, though check the thread. Some just skip hcg and if PCT fails, then start it and try all over.
2. Before starting SERM, you much have TT in the hypogonadal range. You can calculate based on what you have been taking. You could also do blood work though that takes extra $. In your case you want to see it below 8 nmol/l.
3. If you have been using Nandralone (or similar) you need to be off it for 4-6 weeks before PCT regardless of TT levels. Longer if using higher amounts. Otherwise, PCT will fail.
4. Once TT is low (including residual amounts generated from using hcg) then you must frontload your SERM(s), then proceed with the daily dose for 4-6 weeks.

The principles involved are due to both the hypothalmic response being suppressed as well as the testicles shut down. All residual androgens and E2 will interfere with startup - so these must be low. Some androgens have long lasting metabolites that register with the hypothalamus and thus prevent startup regardless of E2 or effects of SERMs. If testicles have been 'dead' a long time, it will take longer to 'awaken' them and hcg can play a role here, allowing one to continue to blast rather than suffer an extended time with low T.

It is important to read those threads even though there is a lot of discussion - perhaps even more due to info one can glean from it.

Is it really necessary to wait till you’re below 8nmols/230ng to start serms, the body normally doesn’t wait till you’re hypogonadal to start LH production. Anyway this is one reason why I opted for a longer low dose pct, this way taking the serms early won’t hurt since pct will be several months instead of 1-1.5 months plus I’ve been on trt/aas 12 months longer than the @TheEternalBlaDe

 

[Old]

Drop the tren right now.

Yes, similar to Deca

Take low dose clomid with the nolva after a few weeks of being off of test and tren.

Read the stickies on PCT. It doesn't indicate low dose but regular dose after 1 day of frontloading (high dose)

Is it really necessary to wait till you’re below 8nmols/230ng to start serms, the body normally doesn’t wait till you’re hypogonadal to start LH production. Anyway this is one reason why I opted for a longer low dose pct, this way taking the serms early won’t hurt since pct will be several months instead of 1-1.5 months plus I’ve been on trt/aas 12 months longer than the @TheEternalBlaDe

Again read the stickies on PCT. Not sure if Dr Scally was part of developing it but he had good experiences with hard cases.

The truth is one doesn't always need PCT. Maybe in 4-12 months all will be restored. One can take lower doses of SERMs especially if it makes them feel sick. You could take (and some have taken) SERMs during blasting. In the end, its up to the individual, their own response, AAS used and duration. There isn't exactly an 'official' PCT.

However, the 'official' PCT discussed was not developed arbitrary. It is the quickest and most reliable way. The quicker the recovery, the better one will feel and there will be less anabolic loss. Why not succeed in just a few weeks? You can follow Bill Roberts info about switching from long duration to short duration T right up to a short time before PCT - win, win.

Points about waiting until low T and frontloading were not just quirky ideas ... they developed for reason and by trial. As to what is 'low T', that has always been debated in the med fields. Probably < 400ng would constitute low enough. And if you are using short esters, its only a couple days between 400 and 230.

See Dr. Scally, PoWer PCT Question.

 

[The Terminator]

Yes, similar to Deca


Read the stickies on PCT. It doesn't indicate low dose but regular dose after 1 day of frontloading (high dose)


Again read the stickies on PCT. Not sure if Dr Scally was part of developing it but he had good experiences with hard cases.

The truth is one doesn't always need PCT. Maybe in 4-12 months all will be restored. One can take lower doses of SERMs especially if it makes them feel sick. You could take (and some have taken) SERMs during blasting. In the end, its up to the individual, their own response, AAS used and duration. There isn't exactly an 'official' PCT.

However, the 'official' PCT discussed was not developed arbitrary. It is the quickest and most reliable way. The quicker the recovery, the better one will feel and there will be less anabolic loss. Why not succeed in just a few weeks? You can follow Bill Roberts info about switching from long duration to short duration T right up to a short time before PCT - win, win.

Points about waiting until low T and frontloading were not just quirky ideas ... they developed for reason and by trial. As to what is 'low T', that has always been debated in the med fields. Probably < 400ng would constitute low enough. And if you are using short esters, its only a couple days between 400 and 230.

See Dr. Scally, PoWer PCT Question.

If you’re actually asking (not rhetorically) why extend pct when it can be done in 4-6 wks, I suppose because I want to improve fertility sooner, of course i don’t even know if fertility is impacted or not, I was on for 12 months before I added hCG tho. Wanted to wait 3 months before I checked semen if I have to pay out of pocket. Besides that for whatever reason I feel like a longer pct might give the body more time to adjust before letting it take over without help. This is just a theory, not a whole lot of science/studies on pct’ing, there’s only a few I’ve found. Tbh if I can’t recover on my own to satisfactory levels and unless things change with time I’d rather use clomid or hCG over trt for therapy.

 

[Old]

You can begin improving fertility with hcg during blasting. It is unclear how much but the testicles will get a form of LH to begin working.

You will need to wait at least 3 months after PCT because it takes about that long to make sperm. Six months would be more accurate. Curiously, some remain fertile while blasting - even some 'tren' babies. It's not clear if this was left over sperm however (or if, sadly, genetic testing would reveal that someone else is the father, lol).

I'm all for tailoring or even reinventing the wheel (it's fun). But as I'm old, am glad to see a reliable protocol is already done - then I can sit on the porch drinking Mint Juleps and talk about old war stories.

If one restores natural T production, there would usually be no need for hcg since the pituitary will be sending plenty of LH and FSH to do so. Then it is just a matter of time (several months) for production to mature. Generally, use of hcg while blasting is to preserve to some extent testicular function.

A problem with low dose, and even more with not front loading, is that the brain (in this case hypothalamus) often reacts best to sudden change. For example, if something was heading toward someone's face slowly, they might not notice it until it is close. Whereas if it is moving fast, the reaction time (reflex will kick in) will happen sooner. Either case, one will likely avoid having their face smashed in.

A problem with the hypothalamus is that by using AAS it has adapted to a new status quo. When things change, it doesn't suddenly correct hormone production - thus the need for PCT in the first place. By using a SERM, one antagoniized (blocks) E2 receptors on the hypothalamus and thus signals/exaggerates an even more severe hypogonadal state. This causes a quicker reaction. With front loading an even stronger reaction. As far as the dosage after front loading, perhaps it isn't so important - but a protocol was carefully developed over several years. Some even use two SERMs. At some point, using low dose is somewhere between doing PCT and waiting for things to normalize 'naturally' - theoretically, it will take longer.

I have a psychological preference for using a SERM, AI, or hCG to keep the testicles working. And in the case of fertility, one must, since TRT usually crashes fertility. You seem to have potential fatherhood in mind.

 

[The Terminator]

You can begin improving fertility with hcg during blasting. It is unclear how much but the testicles will get a form of LH to begin working.

You will need to wait at least 3 months after PCT because it takes about that long to make sperm. Six months would be more accurate. Curiously, some remain fertile while blasting - even some 'tren' babies. It's not clear if this was left over sperm however (or if, sadly, genetic testing would reveal that someone else is the father, lol).

I'm all for tailoring or even reinventing the wheel (it's fun). But as I'm old, am glad to see a reliable protocol is already done - then I can sit on the porch drinking Mint Juleps and talk about old war stories.

If one restores natural T production, there would usually be no need for hcg since the pituitary will be sending plenty of LH and FSH to do so. Then it is just a matter of time (several months) for production to mature. Generally, use of hcg while blasting is to preserve to some extent testicular function.

A problem with low dose, and even more with not front loading, is that the brain (in this case hypothalamus) often reacts best to sudden change. For example, if something was heading toward someone's face slowly, they might not notice it until it is close. Whereas if it is moving fast, the reaction time (reflex will kick in) will happen sooner. Either case, one will likely avoid having their face smashed in.

A problem with the hypothalamus is that by using AAS it has adapted to a new status quo. When things change, it doesn't suddenly correct hormone production - thus the need for PCT in the first place. By using a SERM, one antagoniized (blocks) E2 receptors on the hypothalamus and thus signals/exaggerates an even more severe hypogonadal state. This causes a quicker reaction. With front loading an even stronger reaction. As far as the dosage after front loading, perhaps it isn't so important - but a protocol was carefully developed over several years. Some even use two SERMs. At some point, using low dose is somewhere between doing PCT and waiting for things to normalize 'naturally' - theoretically, it will take longer.

I have a psychological preference for using a SERM, AI, or hCG to keep the testicles working. And in the case of fertility, one must, since TRT usually crashes fertility. You seem to have potential fatherhood in mind.

Yes I do want to have kids, which is one of the reasons I’m discontinuing, plus I felt better off and don’t feel I need it anymore as most of the major external factors causing low T have been corrected. I didn’t start hCG with trt, I started it 12 months into trt so the last 8 months but I know hCG can lead to spermatogenisis on its own even on trt although not as well as if you take hCG + FSH.

It’s funny when I hear about all these Tren babies I honestly thought to myself are they truly the biological father lol since the vast majority have oligospermia or azoospermia, and Tren being more suppressive would make it more difficult, but I guess you only need 1 sperm to make it lol

I guess when I say low dose I’m talking about 50mg of clomid and 10mg of tamoxifen. I’ve been contemplating coming off for nearly a year but tbh I decided on a whim right before my next weekly shot was due that I’m coming off now. I only had a handful of clomid and tamoxifen, my local source with pharmaceutical grade was out and I’m leery of ugl or research chemical grade so I had to order international and stretch what I had. Otherwise I would have started with 100mg of clomid and 20-40mg tamoxifen initially before dropping dose.

Re hCG it’s not really needed to be used long in the pct process, especially if you get a response from serms, only reason to use it longer than the standard pct protocols would be if you want to have a baby ASAP.

 

[TheEternalBlaDe]

I did not realize there were more posts, interesting things, I was not sure if i should start a new thread or just ask it here, what do you guys think about the fact my Prolactin is so high(btw sex drive is still fine, balls still same size, which may have to do with always having varicocele(veins plus 1 ball smaller than other)? My estrogen is in a normal range still and I could say my chest feels a bit tender but everything appears fine. The only thing on my blood work that concerns me is my red blood count and to a lesser degree why my cortisol is so high(maybe its the wife killing me.. ughh). My RBC says 7.24mio/mm3 but the highest in a normal range shows 5.7. As far as this whole PCT confusion I had, I decided to try the Taper off method, I just dont like the idea of putting even more chemicals in my body. When I started(and reason I have been on so long) is I did this very gradual with a very small dosage and finally found a place I like(test400 and tren200) any future cycles other than adding anavar (40mg/d) for 4 weeks during competition and will never go over that, I believe with proper training I will continue to grow at that dose and I just dont think I see a "return on investment" to from a health stand point to take more. Also I think I would stick to a cycle of 3 weeks taper up to test 400mg/w, 10 weeks test400/tren200 and then taper down from test 400mg to test 10mg/w over 9 weeks. During these times I would take Aromasin 12.5mg EOD and in the final 4 weeks:
40mg/day for 7 days (2 tabletten)
30mg/day for 7 days (1.5 tabletten)
20mg/day for 7 days (1 tablet)
10mg/day for 7 days (0.5 tablet)
This should give me the ability to be off everything 4 weeks before I repeat. The goal is to keep healthy and alive. I am no longer concerned with having kids so this is not to much a concern like you terminator. And during all phases continue my strict diet and training routine.

I think I got off track.. I did research of what the average healthy man makes in test per day and it averages to about 6mg per day which is only about 40mg a week. Like any medication(and in my past I have been on prescribed stuff for various reasons). You will get severe withdrawal effects if you dont taper down slowly before stopping, I just dont like the idea of just a major shock like that to the body. I also see no reason why the body would not find the proper homeostasis once you lower it below the normal threshold. For me I dont know what that is since my test levels were already shot before I ever touched a steroid.

*No matter who you are without continuing to train hard and eat right I does not matter how big you were, your body will never just "keep" gains if you arent living the lifestyle so this whole keeping gains thing could potentially be a myth..