Cycling and PEDs

[Trenbolonetax]

and I get what you mean here. I used to love outdoor rec biking.

They help though if used right and you want to do 10 to 20 miles really fast. I really find low dose Test plus rational oral use to be extremely beneficial for sprint events (under 1 hr).

It’s more fun for me to try and do my “route” as fast as possible, and easy to “track progress” that way. I certainly don’t need drugs to do it lol. We don’t need drugs to do any of this.

I want drugs that will have beneficial overlap into physique enhancement and cycling.

 

[Trenbolonetax]

I read the word "bike" and this list of stuff and kind of felt a little sick.
Cycling is my cardio and I do a fair amount of it.
I love the bike and being on it.
I also follow the sport a bit and really enjoy it.

However, what cycling means to me is different, I suppose.
The best way I have to describe it is that it is a cleansing experience.
I cannot reconcile all this drug taking with being on a bike.

And yes, someone brought the easy Armstrong reference, but his drug schedule was (by all accounts) very simple and 100% rational with regards to his needs.

Your cardio suits the purpose of offsetting some of the damage the other substances may be doing and so cardiovascular health + weight maintenance.
You do not need to do more (if anything probably less, if /when you are trying to build mass?) and you are not racing.

Also, your mileage is so low, I am really not sure why you are entertaining what drugs to use/introduce.
Surely, to do 10-20 miles, one doesn't need to think about drugs.

I only take something in the forms of stims, as I often don't sleep well or enough, so that's something that may help me a little, psychologically, too.

If it were for fun and because I want a bit of excitement in my life, the thing I would try is EPO. obviously.
But do I NEED it?
No.
Cardarine is the other, easier thing, I suppose.
PD saw really good improvements to his running time and cardio performance but was eventually put off by the cancer risk, which is something he is not prepared to entertain.

I am sure all this is not helpful to what you have in mind, but by looking at what you actually do on that bike is the only thing I can say.

Understood. I’m not looking for a cheat code nor expecting to find one. Just would like to use the drugs that have the most overlap between physique and cycling in terms of beneficial impact.

My mileage is low, yes, but I like to do speed runs for the most part. And I’m already on drugs because of lifting; so it’s like what I mentioned above. How can I get the best overlap?

My times are better off AAS…so definitely don’t think they’re a magic bullet.

I’m sure my times would be better on less AAS. Just enough for recovery enhancement pretty much.

thanks for the feedback!

 

[bossetti]

Hydration might've been a factor. Manipulating hydration is how many pros beat doping tests.

Lipids are looking pretty good, btw.



Probably one of the best PRs you can hit for now is hours per week in Z2, which you want to consistently increase.



I run the Assioma MX-1 on my gravel bike with 35mm Conti GP5k tubeless and it's fast AF and will handle any terrain that isn't rocks and roots. My road bike misses me. The dual-sided power meter is kinda spendy. Single sided will work for what you need. It is precise in terms of relative measurements. If you need absolute precision, then get the duo.

Once you have a power meter, get a computer. I like the Wahoo Bolt v2. It'll auto-upload to strava. You can wire that into intervals.icu for free, which will do your power analysis for you. All you need is a short, medium and long duration max effort somewhere in a power file on a day when you're well recovered and it'll give you a reasonably accurate estimated FTP.

But i dont know protocols for diuretics to be clean at test day, its long or you take It One time and then you are clean?( I dont think so but idk)
Its Just diuretics or there are other things?
I think everyone should have a Power meter but i dont like pedal spindle Power meters because i have seen a lot of them damaged in cx and MTB maybe on Road Is the best thing but idk
The cool part Is that you can swap them between bikes quite easily

 

[egruberman]

i dont know protocols for diuretics to be clean at test day

I'm not super familiar with the protocol, but the point is to lower HCT for testing after an autologous transfusion that ostensibly was pulled when the reticulocyte count was similar.

In summary, the EPO is dosed off season which becomes undetectable after a matter of a few days, which stimulates the synthesis of new red blood cells, i.e. reticulocytes, an excess of which will pop a blood test. Once those have matured and HCT is very high, blood is drawn and banked. Then during competition, and autologous transfusion is completed typically mid-way through a long tour and the athlete hyper hydrates to prevent popping for excess HCT.

I think everyone should have a Power meter but i dont like pedal spindle Power meters because i have seen a lot of them damaged in cx and MTB maybe on Road Is the best thing but idk
The cool part Is that you can swap them between bikes quite easily

I have the Favero Assioma Duo, Duo Shi, and the Pro MX-2. The latter is fairly new and I haven't been especially gentle with it. They've been notable claims about it being resistant to shock.

I converted the Duo to SPD and have been running them on my gravel bike for the last couple years up until about six months or so ago. I have heavily abused it. I've crashed hard enough to break a set of carbon bars, but have never damaged the pedals.

I guess my point is that unless you're doing serious DH, I suspect it's probably fine. I appreciate that it's easy to swap pedals and I can use normal components on my bike. I've had several power meters over the years and these are the least hassle and the most precise.

Though less precise, the single arm power meters from 4III and Stages have all been pretty reliable.

 

[egruberman]

I hear you about the hours in Z2…is there an upper limit? Or just something that more is better until I hit a certain threshold?

Pros will often do 20 or more hours of Z2 in a week. For very competitive cyclists, 12+. At more than 10 hours a week, it would be hard for me to predict the interference effect of the cycling vs. the lifting as you'd be producing a not insignificant amount of training stress, even at that low intensity.

Once you have a power meter and an estimated FTP, I can more accurately assess the impact the training stress that you're experiencing. As I mentioned, you can auto-upload your data from strava to intervals.icu and it will generate a chart like this for you:



I'm sad to look at this and share because it shows how my fitness has fallen off since I moved to a new house and broke my routine of riding every day.

In PMC terms (from the book I mentioned) "fitness" is chronic training load, "fatigue" is acute training load, and "form" is the delta between them.

These concepts are hard to gain an understanding of, but represent the real value in using a power meter. It's less about riding at a particular power target, which you'll figure out how to do pretty quickly and less about bragging about your FTP and more about precisely accounting for training load and doing that thing we all know and love called "progressive overload".

 

[bossetti]

Pros will often do 20 or more hours of Z2 in a week. For very competitive cyclists, 12+. At more than 10 hours a week, it would be hard for me to predict the interference effect of the cycling vs. the lifting as you'd be producing a not insignificant amount of training stress, even at that low intensity.

Once you have a power meter and an estimated FTP, I can more accurately assess the impact the training stress that you're experiencing. As I mentioned, you can auto-upload your data from strava to intervals.icu and it will generate a chart like this for you:

View attachment 298735

I'm sad to look at this and share because it shows how my fitness has fallen off since I moved to a new house and broke my routine of riding every day.

In PMC terms (from the book I mentioned) "fitness" is chronic training load, "fatigue" is acute training load, and "form" is the delta between them.

These concepts are hard to gain an understanding of, but represent the real value in using a power meter. It's less about riding at a particular power target, which you'll figure out how to do pretty quickly and less about bragging about your FTP and more about precisely accounting for training load and doing that thing we all know and love called "progressive overload".

What Is your favorite ftp test? 20 Min ?

 

[bossetti]

I'm not super familiar with the protocol, but the point is to lower HCT for testing after an autologous transfusion that ostensibly was pulled when the reticulocyte count was similar.

In summary, the EPO is dosed off season which becomes undetectable after a matter of a few days, which stimulates the synthesis of new red blood cells, i.e. reticulocytes, an excess of which will pop a blood test. Once those have matured and HCT is very high, blood is drawn and banked. Then during competition, and autologous transfusion is completed typically mid-way through a long tour and the athlete hyper hydrates to prevent popping for excess HCT.



I have the Favero Assioma Duo, Duo Shi, and the Pro MX-2. The latter is fairly new and I haven't been especially gentle with it. They've been notable claims about it being resistant to shock.

I converted the Duo to SPD and have been running them on my gravel bike for the last couple years up until about six months or so ago. I have heavily abused it. I've crashed hard enough to break a set of carbon bars, but have never damaged the pedals.

I guess my point is that unless you're doing serious DH, I suspect it's probably fine. I appreciate that it's easy to swap pedals and I can use normal components on my bike. I've had several power meters over the years and these are the least hassle and the most precise.

Though less precise, the single arm power meters from 4III and Stages have all been pretty reliable.

I know a bit about Blood doping but how diuretics makes u clean for steroids?
I have ready something like this but not sure

 

[egruberman]

What Is your favorite ftp test? 20 Min ?

You want to start a war? Because this is how you start a war.

In all seriousness, FTP is a surrogate for MLSS. Unfortunately, Coggan allowed Hunter Allen (a coach, not a scientist) to contribute to the section of the book (Training and Racing with a Power Meter) that discusses FTP testing and it created a lot of confusion that has yet to be undone over a decade after it was published.

That doesn't help you, though. Typically with a new athlete, and since I don't coach anymore, this is all in the past, I'd get several power files in which the athlete was well-recovered and provided a maximal effort around 1m, 5m, and 20m and use WKO5 to estimate FTP.

Much like finding a 1RM in lifting, precision doesn't matter too much. It's a basis for training and progressive overload will cause it to shift over time. It'll be obvious if it's set too high or too low.

 

[bossetti]

You want to start a war? Because this is how you start a war.

In all seriousness, FTP is a surrogate for MLSS. Unfortunately, Coggan allowed Hunter Allen (a coach, not a scientist) to contribute to the section of the book (Training and Racing with a Power Meter) that discusses FTP testing and it created a lot of confusion that has yet to be undone over a decade after it was published.

That doesn't help you, though. Typically with a new athlete, and since I don't coach anymore, this is all in the past, I'd get several power files in which the athlete was well-recovered and provided a maximal effort around 1m, 5m, and 20m and use WKO5 to estimate FTP.

Much like finding a 1RM in lifting, precision doesn't matter too much. It's a basis for training and progressive overload will cause it to shift over time. It'll be obvious if it's set too high or too low.

no i dont want to start any war lol, im just curious because i cant actually train properly without a coach and its cool to know how other coach work, i also talk a lot about coaching with my racing enmies lol and everyone is different everytime but they arent slow....

 

[Trenbolonetax]

Pros will often do 20 or more hours of Z2 in a week. For very competitive cyclists, 12+. At more than 10 hours a week, it would be hard for me to predict the interference effect of the cycling vs. the lifting as you'd be producing a not insignificant amount of training stress, even at that low intensity.

Once you have a power meter and an estimated FTP, I can more accurately assess the impact the training stress that you're experiencing. As I mentioned, you can auto-upload your data from strava to intervals.icu and it will generate a chart like this for you:

View attachment 298735

I'm sad to look at this and share because it shows how my fitness has fallen off since I moved to a new house and broke my routine of riding every day.

In PMC terms (from the book I mentioned) "fitness" is chronic training load, "fatigue" is acute training load, and "form" is the delta between them.

These concepts are hard to gain an understanding of, but represent the real value in using a power meter. It's less about riding at a particular power target, which you'll figure out how to do pretty quickly and less about bragging about your FTP and more about precisely accounting for training load and doing that thing we all know and love called "progressive overload".

Appreciate that context. I don’t think I’ll be bragging about my FTP anytime soon, lol.

I’m okay with some interference with my lifting. I’ve lowered my gym training load so I can do more cycling.

Just not ready to go all in on cycling, if that makes sense. I stopped hitting legs lifting because pretty big calorie deficit + cycling was leaving my legs with very little gas in the tank.

Not sure that’s the right move, but for now, that’s where I’m at.

 

[malfeasance]

Hydration might've been a factor. Manipulating hydration is how many pros beat doping tests.

Lipids are looking pretty good, btw.



Probably one of the best PRs you can hit for now is hours per week in Z2, which you want to consistently increase.



I run the Assioma MX-1 on my gravel bike with 35mm Conti GP5k tubeless and it's fast AF and will handle any terrain that isn't rocks and roots. My road bike misses me. The dual-sided power meter is kinda spendy. Single sided will work for what you need. It is precise in terms of relative measurements. If you need absolute precision, then get the duo.

Once you have a power meter, get a computer. I like the Wahoo Bolt v2. It'll auto-upload to strava. You can wire that into intervals.icu for free, which will do your power analysis for you. All you need is a short, medium and long duration max effort somewhere in a power file on a day when you're well recovered and it'll give you a reasonably accurate estimated FTP.

You can manipulate your hematocrit only so far with hydration. You cannot make high hematocrit look like anemia by drinking a bunch of water.

 

[malfeasance]

Pros will often do 20 or more hours of Z2 in a week. For very competitive cyclists, 12+. At more than 10 hours a week, it would be hard for me to predict the interference effect of the cycling vs. the lifting as you'd be producing a not insignificant amount of training stress, even at that low intensity.

Is "Z2" zone 2?

220-57 = 163 mhr

zone 2 is 60-70% of mhr

163 x .6 = 97, 163 x .7 = 114

I cannot imagine how slowly I would have to ride to keep my heart rate in the 97-114 bpm range. I do not even know if it would be possible for me to ride a bike at a heart rate of 97 for any length of time. 97 is just a speed my heart passes on the way to higher rates during cardio.

 

[bossetti]

Is "Z2" zone 2?

220-57 = 163 mhr

zone 2 is 60-70% of mhr

163 x .6 = 97, 163 x .7 = 114

I cannot imagine how slowly I would have to ride to keep my heart rate in the 97-114 bpm range. I do not even know if it would be possible for me to ride a bike at a heart rate of 97 for any length of time. 97 is just a speed my heart passes on the way to higher rates during cardio.

Is z2 Power not hearth rate normally, they should be the same thing but in reality they are so different
For example i have Always lower thain i should bpm bbut Power Is right, its also really important for me the temperature, if its hot the hearth rate Is a lot higher, for example when its cold i am a lot lower than the bpm Z2 but Power Is right
Sorry for my bad english but It isnt my main language

 

[egruberman]

You can manipulate your hematocrit only so far with hydration. You cannot make high hematocrit look like anemia by drinking a bunch of water.

I'm not an expert in this, but as I understand it, HCT dips during a long tour and mid way through, people will "top up". They'll come into the tour with a high HCT, use hydration to manipulate the testing to keep HCT roughly consistent in testing through the days when the transfusion occurs.

Is "Z2" zone 2?

Specifically, It's the power at maximal fat oxidation that occurs just prior to LT1:



If one knows FTP, which is a surrogate for MLSS or LT2, then it's pretty easy to estimate Z2. Inigo San Millan recommends the talk test, which is to say that you should go at the greatest intensity you can sustain and still complete a sentence. That shouldn't feel "easy". One should be noticeably breathing, but there should be no "burn" and it should be a pace one can sustain for several hours.

Not sure that’s the right move, but for now, that’s where I’m at.

It's probably a great idea from a health perspective. Once you have a month or two of data and a few maximal efforts, we can take a look at your power duration curve and see what kind of genetic talents you may have. In spite of not being a chicken legged climber, you might have a high absolute FTP which can be cool in things like flat time trials where W/CdA is more important than W/kg. It's also fun to be able ride into the wind and drop your skinny ass friends that always seem to want to drop you while climbing.

no i dont want to start any war lol,

Just to be clear, because of the language difference, my comment about starting a war was a joke. It's a contentious topic in the cycling community.

its cool to know how other coach work,

If it's not obvious, I have a rather nerdy approach to "coaching". Mostly I helped people to train with power, do analysis, develop training plans, etc. There's a lot more to being a good coach than I was willing to do. It was only something I did for fun in any case.

 

[bossetti]

I'm not an expert in this, but as I understand it, HCT dips during a long tour and mid way through, people will "top up". They'll come into the tour with a high HCT, use hydration to manipulate the testing to keep HCT roughly consistent in testing through the days when the transfusion occurs.


Specifically, It's the power at maximal fat oxidation that occurs just prior to LT1:

View attachment 298852

If one knows FTP, which is a surrogate for MLSS or LT2, then it's pretty easy to estimate Z2. Inigo San Millan recommends the talk test, which is to say that you should go at the greatest intensity you can sustain and still complete a sentence. That shouldn't feel "easy". One should be noticeably breathing, but there should be no "burn" and it should be a pace one can sustain for several hours.



It's probably a great idea from a health perspective. Once you have a month or two of data and a few maximal efforts, we can take a look at your power duration curve and see what kind of genetic talents you may have. In spite of not being a chicken legged climber, you might have a high absolute FTP which can be cool in things like flat time trials where W/CdA is more important than W/kg. It's also fun to be able ride into the wind and drop your skinny ass friends that always seem to want to drop you while climbing.



Just to be clear, because of the language difference, my comment about starting a war was a joke. It's a contentious topic in the cycling community.



If it's not obvious, I have a rather nerdy approach to "coaching". Mostly I helped people to train with power, do analysis, develop training plans, etc. There's a lot more to being a good coach than I was willing to do. It was only something I did for fun in any case.

To hydrate to change hct values i have seen that they use to inject iv a saline solution not drinking

For the nerdy approach i like It
But what do you think It Is an average improvement on a juiced athlete vs non juiced and i mean taking about the same rider i know that someone improved a lot more than others ecc but you have some datas?

 

[egruberman]

But what do you think It Is an average improvement on a juiced athlete vs non juiced and i mean taking about the same rider i know that someone improved a lot more than others ecc but you have some datas?

No real clue. I've seen a little data from the pros, but that's always suspect, but based on projected body weight and times up certain well known climbs it's like the difference between 6.7W/kg and 7W/kg. I've seen folks speculate that >6.7 is not possible without help.

For most climbers this would amount to around 20W, which is not much. I think the bigger differences are in the ability to attack and recover and a the fact that power doesn't drop off so much during a long tour.

For non-pros I have no idea how much benefit they would expect to gain. I suspect not much as the constraint is less about absolute oxygen consumption and more about muscular metabolic efficiency.

Power at FTP is, by definition below power at VO2Max and as such, it's not constrained by oxygen supply.

 

[bossetti]

No real clue. I've seen a little data from the pros, but that's always suspect, but based on projected body weight and times up certain well known climbs it's like the difference between 6.7W/kg and 7W/kg. I've seen folks speculate that >6.7 is not possible without help.

For most climbers this would amount to around 20W, which is not much. I think the bigger differences are in the ability to attack and recover and a the fact that power doesn't drop off so much during a long tour.

For non-pros I have no idea how much benefit they would expect to gain. I suspect not much as the constraint is less about absolute oxygen consumption and more about muscular metabolic efficiency.

Power at FTP is, by definition below power at VO2Max and as such, it's not constrained by oxygen supply.

In going to test It myself, rn my ftp Is 4.87 w/kg and extimated vo2max Is like a bit less than 70 i know that the extimation isnt that precise(based on 5 minute Power) if you want i can put intervals icu Power chart, and then lets see how te protocol go
I want to use Epo, test base 2/3 times a day a trt dose at 130/120mg in Winter and 100/120 in summer then im probably going to add cardarine and telmisartan but i dont know, if i aromatize too much(High probability) im going to add AI

In this chart there are some missing efforts like 5 minute at 6.7w/kg and 3 minute at 7
When i do It i start a thread

 

[bossetti]

I open a new thread

 

[Rabble]

Is "Z2" zone 2?

220-57 = 163 mhr

zone 2 is 60-70% of mhr

163 x .6 = 97, 163 x .7 = 114

I cannot imagine how slowly I would have to ride to keep my heart rate in the 97-114 bpm range. I do not even know if it would be possible for me to ride a bike at a heart rate of 97 for any length of time. 97 is just a speed my heart passes on the way to higher rates during cardio.

The max hr calculation 220-age is not something that should be taken seriously. Max HR, HR variability, and other cardiac metrics are often applied with no other real data derived from intensive cardiac testing and imaging...and are not terribly helpful.

Around 10 years ago, Sky released Chris Froome's HR data, which showed his absolute max was in the 150's.
Other Grand Tour winners have shown data where they are in the 210's.
How?
Well, you can move blood volume thru high beat velocity or thru stroke length.
Froome keeps BPM low because his heart stroke is quite long. (and Sky had very clever doctors)