day one of attempting to restart

good to hear chap things are going well.
i am of the opinion that libido will increase on cessation of clomid and nolvo as i feel that they are weak estrogens in themselves & have a negative effect on libido even whilst testosterone levels may be increasing from their use.
what would be interesting is blood test results and whether you continue to feel as well when you stop using the serms and whether your body can naturally keep up output afterwards.

good luck with your experiment and keep us posted.
 
chap said:
end of day 12

got back from working out, actually went heavy today because I feel strong and I was as strong as I was when I was on the trt doses for sure, so it makes me wonder if my natural test is now at a high level.... libido is still weak, but that might have something to do with being on clomid and nolva... but I feel really great, mood good, feel really healthy, something I can't say I felt all the time when on trt... this is really working much better than I expected
If your strength levels are as good as when you were on TRT... you would think that your endogenous levels of T are at a good level. My strength declines very quickly when T levels fall.

I would not stop the SERM therapy now, however, perhaps as you say just taking Tamoxifen after the 3 week period, for at least 3 months.... I would not be too concerned about your libido at this stage. It is a shame that you cannot do some testing at various points.

Yes this thread is very interesting.:)
 
I have a 'prescription' for a lab test for free testosterone that I am saving to use, not sure when I will take the test.... I'm tempted to now just to see if it is recovered testosterone wise and therefore the libido not being testosterone related

you are right, my strength and good mental feelings tells me that testosterone is in range somewhere, I can tell when I am low too and this is not like that at all, tomorrow is my last day of clomid so we will see what if anything changes in a few days when the clomid is out of the system
 
end of day 13, no change in libido, workout heavy and very strong, feel fantastic

I decided to taper the clomid a little, so today 25mg clomid, 20 mg nolva
 
ANTB said:
I'm 35, and been on trt for about a year. This protocol won't be popular in this forum, but I feel great in every aspect.
I take 25mgs. clomid mon/wed/fri, along with .5 arimidex on the same days.
My TT stays at 850/900, (241-827). 25 mgs. of clomid is very powerful.
Every 2 months I switch to 5gms. androgel, and 250 iu. hcg 3x a week, along with arimidex.
That is what my doc has me do. I tried almost every form of trt and this has been the best for me.
All bloodwork has been good. I think small doses of clomid may go a long way for some with minimal to no sides. Just my 2 cents.

This protocol intrigues me. Do you have any emotional problems due to the clomid? Do you have any other lab results you could share with us on this protocol? I would like to see where it puts your DHT, E2, Lipids, etc.

I tried HCG only at 200 iu per day and it only pumped up my E2.. Perhaps I should have tried it with Arimidex.
 
end of day 15

20 mg nolvadex, no more clomid

workout very strong
feel great
libido actually improving a bit
 
ANTB said:
I take 25mgs. clomid mon/wed/fri, along with .5 arimidex on the same days.

Every 2 months I switch to 5gms. androgel, and 250 iu. hcg 3x a week, along with arimidex.

Your HPTA must be very confused. You turn it on and off every 2 months. Why would you wanna do this ?

JH
 
Vforcer2 said:
This protocol intrigues me. Do you have any emotional problems due to the clomid? Do you have any other lab results you could share with us on this protocol? I would like to see where it puts your DHT, E2, Lipids, etc.

I tried HCG only at 200 iu per day and it only pumped up my E2.. Perhaps I should have tried it with Arimidex.
Is this all you were doing is 200 IU's a day of HCG or were you doing T also. I don't under stand why men feel that taking something to get there T levels up if it drivers up E2 that is not good. Some men older are going to have higher E2 levels normaly with out being on TRT it is just a fact of life. So when you go on TRT and your E's go up take something to bring it down. Keeping it down helps bring up your Total and Free T levels. I feel this is a small price to pay to feel better. You need your Total and Free T levels up in the upper 1/3 of your labs range and your E2 down between 10 to 30. So if you need you T level up at say 600 and this drives your E2 up to 45. Backing off on your T levels will bring down your E2 but will you feel good at say 300.
 
pmgamer18 said:
Is this all you were doing is 200 IU's a day of HCG or were you doing T also. I don't under stand why men feel that taking something to get there T levels up if it drivers up E2 that is not good. Some men older are going to have higher E2 levels normaly with out being on TRT it is just a fact of life. So when you go on TRT and your E's go up take something to bring it down. Keeping it down helps bring up your Total and Free T levels. I feel this is a small price to pay to feel better. You need your Total and Free T levels up in the upper 1/3 of your labs range and your E2 down between 10 to 30. So if you need you T level up at say 600 and this drives your E2 up to 45. Backing off on your T levels will bring down your E2 but will you feel good at say 300.

I am not sure what you are saying hear Phil, but the reason I did not continue the HCG protocol was that 200 iu per day did not hardly budge my Total and Free T levels. The only that that went up was E2 and then it actually DOUBLED.

I was afraid of desensitizing the Leydig cells and becoming primary.

My T levels are not horrible, but do need some improvement. I don't want to shut down my testicles if I can avoid it. If I can just find a way to bump my Free T from the current 450 range to say 600 range and get my Free T toward the top of the range, then I would be happy. My E2 is currently 24, which I think is close to perfect.

So far I am not sure what the best method of doing this is. The Clomid protocol intrigues me. I thought HCG would be the answer, but I just did not respond well to it. Perhaps I got a bad batch?
 
How long did you do the HCG when I started and I am primary been like this for over 22 yrs. I started adding HCG to my 150 mg. weekly T shot doing 500 IU's 3 x's a week. It took a good 15 shots for my testis to start working again. Then my T went up from 650 to 1087 my lab range is 262 to 1598 so this did the trick for me. I started to feel the best I ever felt on TRT in the 22 yrs I was on it. Did you give the HCG time to work. When my E2 went higher I just took more Arimidex. I settled down to 64 mgs. of Depo T shots every 3 days and doing my HCG 100 mgs everyday. So it can take 2 to 3 months for your testis to get up to speed.
 
pmgamer18 said:
How long did you do the HCG when I started and I am primary been like this for over 22 yrs. I started adding HCG to my 150 mg. weekly T shot doing 500 IU's 3 x's a week. It took a good 15 shots for my testis to start working again. Then my T went up from 650 to 1087 my lab range is 262 to 1598 so this did the trick for me. I started to feel the best I ever felt on TRT in the 22 yrs I was on it. Did you give the HCG time to work. When my E2 went higher I just took more Arimidex. I settled down to 64 mgs. of Depo T shots every 3 days and doing my HCG 100 mgs everyday. So it can take 2 to 3 months for your testis to get up to speed.

I injected 200iu HCG every day for 30 days and retested. Here are the results:

12-06-05
Total T: 452 (241-827)
Free T: 9.3 (8.7-25.1)
E2: 17
LH: 4.4 (1.5-9.3)


Did HCG 200 IU for a month

1-04-06
Total T: 467
Free T: 13.4
E2: 33


Ceased HCG Protocol

Most Recent Labs from this week:
3-28-06
Total T: 458
Free T: 11.3
E2: 24


As you can see my Testis are already working. I could be wrong, but since I they have not been supressed by any recent HRT protocols, I would not think it would take 2-3 months to increase the production.

I would love feed back from others on this if I am wrong. I was going to bump up to 300 iu per day but was afraid that might be way to much and cause damage to the Leydig cells. I do wonder if Arimidex and HCG might be a good option though.

Other thoughts are:
clomid + Arimidex

T Cream + HCG + Armidex + Progesterone to suppress DHT levels (I don't want to loose any more hair).

Sorry if I am highjacking this thread.
 
The thing that looked dam good was your Free T went up and you E2 did not jump like mine did. If you do TRT the amount of T your Testis are makeing will get shut down or stop. I feel you need to try the hGC again and add a little like .25 once a week to 10 days Arimidex. Give it 30 days retest and see if keeping the E2 down will bring your number up. Also HCG can shut down your making your own T. Have you read David Z's Articles here are the links.
https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134235700

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134235701
 
end of day 17

feel too good strength wise, my testosterone must be high, libido still low, acne still visible on shoulders, but they are not anywhere near as bad as from hcg

I'm going to start to taper the nolva down, and maybe get off nolva soon to see what happens, I feel so recovered and have for awhile now, testicle size is great, I am believing that if I taper off that it will persist

so tonight 10mg nolva... will do that for 2 or 3 days then 5mg
 
Hello. This thread demonstrates the problem I have been attempting to make the medical community (physicians/reserachers) address for almost a decade. See website www.asih.net. I personally have treated many thousand of patients for this problem. I challenge anyone to find a medical professional who has treated more individuals than me. I have termed the condition ASIH or Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism. This has lead me down many paths and realizations for the failure of the medcial profession to properly research ASIH. I have been absolutely tirelessly dedicated to developing a treatment regimen as well as programs utlizing AAS but without the ASIH usually seen with the cessation of AAS. I have been very successful in this endeavor. However, the medical community does not recognize this problem or labels it something entirerly different. Lunacy.

This past March 2005 the Texas State Board of Medical Examiners revoked my medical license for treating ASIH. I am in the appeal process currently. I was offered a plea early on which would have had me practice no endocrinology for 10 years with a $10,000.00 fine. I refused. Besides the revocation I was fined $200,000.00. I am bankrupt finnacially but wealthy beyond my wildest dreams morally and spiritually. I feel good that as a physician I was doing the right thing for my patient. I will be vindicated. I am a hopeless believer in truth and justice!!!

There is not enough space here to detail the whole story but it does have a consistent path - "FOLLOW THE MONEY." At this time I would rather address the isssue of ASIH. To save time and space please see my recent posts on hCG & clomid/tamoxifen. The protocol developed is published and can be downloaded from the website. It is temporarily offline but will return by Monday.

I will be a moderator starting this coming April. I have written an article on ASIH to be published online at MESO at the same time. originally 22,000 words I have had to cut it back to ~2500. I plan on detailing the information in follow up articles.

I do have a few tips regarding HPTA normalization after AAS cessation:

1. hCG should be used subcutaneous; one may begin the administration before ending AAS use but should only be done after calculating the half-life of the AAS(s) used so as to not deplete the hCG or come up against down regulation of the lutropin receptor;

2. at some point while on the hCG begin the antiestrogen clomiphene citrate at 50 mg po bid (more will be wasteful and increase the risk of troubling side-effects, headaches and ocular pain); tamoxifen can also be added at 20 mg po qd;

3. do not depend upon a clinical response (increased libido, energy. blue-balls, increase in testicle size, etc.) as proof of returned testicular function - NEVER. A serum T should be done and timed to be done just prior to finishing hCG. I will discuss the reason for this at a later time;

4. Only after a sufficient respone in the serum T stop the hCG as planned and continue with the antiestrogens. Towards the completion of these meds and before their gone have a blood test for LH & T, simultaneously.

Decisions after this are individualized and take into consideration the medical history, etc. prior to initiating AAS. one of the best moments in my practice was when a graduate student in Exercise Science received his Masters on work done in my office. The thesis was titled, "The Evaluation Of A Medically Supervised Anabolic-Androgenic Steroid Program Effects On Strength, Body Composition, And Blood Levels." None of these individuals suffered from ASIH post AAS cessation.

I hope this is of some help.

Peace.

Mike
 
asih.net said:
Hello. This thread demonstrates the problem I have been attempting to make the medical community (physicians/reserachers) address for almost a decade. See website www.asih.net. I personally have treated many thousand of patients for this problem. I challenge anyone to find a medical professional who has treated more individuals than me. I have termed the condition ASIH or Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism. This has lead me down many paths and realizations for the failure of the medcial profession to properly research ASIH. I have been absolutely tirelessly dedicated to developing a treatment regimen as well as programs utlizing AAS but without the ASIH usually seen with the cessation of AAS. I have been very successful in this endeavor. However, the medical community does not recognize this problem or labels it something entirerly different. Lunacy.

This past March 2005 the Texas State Board of Medical Examiners revoked my medical license for treating ASIH. I am in the appeal process currently. I was offered a plea early on which would have had me practice no endocrinology for 10 years with a $10,000.00 fine. I refused. Besides the revocation I was fined $200,000.00. I am bankrupt finnacially but wealthy beyond my wildest dreams morally and spiritually. I feel good that as a physician I was doing the right thing for my patient. I will be vindicated. I am a hopeless believer in truth and justice!!!

There is not enough space here to detail the whole story but it does have a consistent path - "FOLLOW THE MONEY." At this time I would rather address the isssue of ASIH. To save time and space please see my recent posts on hCG & clomid/tamoxifen. The protocol developed is published and can be downloaded from the website. It is temporarily offline but will return by Monday.

I will be a moderator starting this coming April. I have written an article on ASIH to be published online at MESO at the same time. originally 22,000 words I have had to cut it back to ~2500. I plan on detailing the information in follow up articles.

I do have a few tips regarding HPTA normalization after AAS cessation:
1. hCG should be used subcutaneous; one may begin the administration before ending AAS use but should only be done after calculating the half-life of the AAS(s) used so as to not deplete the hCG or come up against down regulation of the lutropin receptor; 2. at some point while on the hCG begin the antiestrogen clomiphene citrate at 50 mg po bid (more will be wasteful and increase the risk of troubling side-effects, headaches and ocular pain); tamoxifen can also be added at 20 mg po qd; 3. do not depend upon a clinical response (increased libido, energy. blue-balls, increase in testicle size, etc.) as proof of returned testicular function - NEVER. A serum T should be done and timed to be done just prior to finishing hCG. I will discuss the reason for this at a later time; 4. Only after a sufficient respone in the serum T stop the hCG as planned and continue with the antiestrogens. Towards the completion of these meds and before their gone have a blood test for LH & T, simultaneously.

Decisions after this are individualized and take into consideration the medical history, etc. prior to initiating AAS. one of the best moments in my practice was when a graduate student in Exercise Science received his Masters on work done in my office. The thesis was titled, "The Evaluation Of A Medically Supervised Anabolic-Androgenic Steroid Program Effects On Strength, Body Composition, And Blood Levels." None of these individuals suffered from ASIH post AAS cessation.

I hope this is of some help.

Peace.

Mike

Greetings Dr. Mike and Welcome to our Forum!.
 
asih.net said:
1. hCG should be used subcutaneous; one may begin the administration before ending AAS use but should only be done after calculating the half-life of the AAS(s) used so as to not deplete the hCG or come up against down regulation of the lutropin receptor;

Hey Mike, can you elaborate on this a bit more please?
 
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