Praeceptorem
New Member
Would you mind pm”ing me about some questions about this program will be trying to follow it may add few things and possibly swap stuff out.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Dual-factor Bodybuilding routine for Intermediate and Advanced lifters
- Thread starter weighted chinup
- Start date
mapleleafs791
New Member
So I am planning on giving this program a shot and I had a couple questions.
I plan on running the program for the most part as is for the first 3-4 week, however, I still have few questions for after the delolad week.
1. Was this routine written with natural lifters in mind? There is a lot of volume and a TON of frequency. One of the guys I see running it is using anabolics and this is a steroid forum so I'm just curious.
2. I wanted to add traditional deadlifts later, however, straight subbing them for Romanians seems like a bad idea considering the increased fatigue. Any suggestions for how to incorporate deads in terms of frequency and rep range?
3. If I was to sub front squats out with back squats, would you make any other modifications to accommodate the decreased quad/core work and increased glute ham work?
4. There seems to be a ton of vertical pulling compared to horizontal pulling and with the bench press change, a whole bunch of horizontal pressing without much vertical pressing. Is there a reason for the lack of a horizontal pulling (ie rows) variant as one of the core exercises?
I plan on running the program for the most part as is for the first 3-4 week, however, I still have few questions for after the delolad week.
1. Was this routine written with natural lifters in mind? There is a lot of volume and a TON of frequency. One of the guys I see running it is using anabolics and this is a steroid forum so I'm just curious.
2. I wanted to add traditional deadlifts later, however, straight subbing them for Romanians seems like a bad idea considering the increased fatigue. Any suggestions for how to incorporate deads in terms of frequency and rep range?
3. If I was to sub front squats out with back squats, would you make any other modifications to accommodate the decreased quad/core work and increased glute ham work?
4. There seems to be a ton of vertical pulling compared to horizontal pulling and with the bench press change, a whole bunch of horizontal pressing without much vertical pressing. Is there a reason for the lack of a horizontal pulling (ie rows) variant as one of the core exercises?
luex
Well-known Member
This routine effective for someone cutting weight?
Mayne
Well-known Member
I imagine it is more than any particularly in that regard you do only compound, lift in lower rep range and have high frequency
I don't want to answer on behalf of the author, however, I am confident he would agree... Cut vs. mass gain is largely diet related, not as much the "lifting" style. So, yes, you can use this on a "cut" phase.
Rosconow
Well-known Member
Not enough recovery days for me.... the magic happens away from the gym. Hypertrophy only happens with sufficient nutrients and recovery.
For me, ive tried 6-7 days training in the past, under the misguided belief that growth results from training, and it does to a point. Ive learned over trial and error, that my body grows way better with equal train/ recover schedule. Each to their own.
Your program does look good though.
For me, ive tried 6-7 days training in the past, under the misguided belief that growth results from training, and it does to a point. Ive learned over trial and error, that my body grows way better with equal train/ recover schedule. Each to their own.
Your program does look good though.
Would it be possible to mix in a set of rest pause style training with this routine. EG Change the last set of each exercise to rest pause.
This is what i do for rest pause: If i am trying to complete 10 reps, I perform one rep then drop the weight for 20 seconds, pick the weight back up again and perform another rep, drop the weight again and take another twenty second rest. Keep repeating until all ten reps have been completed, one rep at a time with a 20 second break inbetween. This is for hypertrophy
On low rep power days i increase the rest to 45 seconds.
What do you think, is this compatiblewith this training routine, performing the first two sets of each exercise as straight sets, then peforming the last set only as rest pause.
This is what i do for rest pause: If i am trying to complete 10 reps, I perform one rep then drop the weight for 20 seconds, pick the weight back up again and perform another rep, drop the weight again and take another twenty second rest. Keep repeating until all ten reps have been completed, one rep at a time with a 20 second break inbetween. This is for hypertrophy
On low rep power days i increase the rest to 45 seconds.
What do you think, is this compatiblewith this training routine, performing the first two sets of each exercise as straight sets, then peforming the last set only as rest pause.
LeoTC
Member
Um...
Rest/Pause pausing a portion of the movement or taking a few seconds mid set to knock out a few more reps.
It's not but re-racking or putting down the weight, taking a half minute or more break, then starting over.
That's called a one rep set.
Rest/Pause pausing a portion of the movement or taking a few seconds mid set to knock out a few more reps.
It's not but re-racking or putting down the weight, taking a half minute or more break, then starting over.
That's called a one rep set.
Both are correct ways of doing Rest pause. His way is the way daunte trudel and doggcrapp training popularized.
As far as adding it here, without speaking for WC, no. WC wrote this as dual factor using total weekly tonnage and frequency to build muscle at intensities that are recoverable from. Adding extra intensity would not be smart. This program already flirts with over reaching which is why he has the deloads built in so frequently.
As far as the question above about the program being good for naturals, naturals and enhanced should not be training different really. But you will have to eat to support your goal. And this goes back to the cutting question, if you are eating in a deficit, you will not recover on program like this. As a natural, if you aren't pounding the steak and eggs down, you are not gonna make it. So sure the program is perfect for naturals do long as they understand how to diet.
LeoTC
Member
Holy balls I hate how retarded I sound when I post from my phone. But I also get tired of editing and re-editing shit because my auto text hates me. :/
Anyway...
Call it what you want. But if 30-45 seconds between lifts - weights having been re-racked or dropped - constitutes an R/P set, I guess I R/P one ginormous set everytime I lift.
I just don't do singles?
Seems like a label created to make taking a break sound more...I dunno. Strategic or intelligent are the words that come to mind, but don't actually compute when articulated.
But, that's neither here nor there.
Anyway...
Call it what you want. But if 30-45 seconds between lifts - weights having been re-racked or dropped - constitutes an R/P set, I guess I R/P one ginormous set everytime I lift.
I just don't do singles?
Seems like a label created to make taking a break sound more...I dunno. Strategic or intelligent are the words that come to mind, but don't actually compute when articulated.
But, that's neither here nor there.
I think the idea is, the last few reps of a set takes you into the muscle building zone, that is what steve shaw on utube is saying. The earlier reps are too easy. By using a heavier weight per rep you stay in the muscle building zone longer. What do you think, is it all rubbish?
For this routine the op does not state a rest time between sets. What do you think about 30 secs rest for the ten rep days and two minutes for 5 rep days.
For this routine the op does not state a rest time between sets. What do you think about 30 secs rest for the ten rep days and two minutes for 5 rep days.
LeoTC
Member
There's no reason to take a two minute break with a weight that you can handle for five reps.
LeoTC
Member
Dude.
90 seconds to be back in position and lifting. Less if you can manage.
I do three times more in an hour than a lot of my buddies do in two to three. Catch your breath and go.
If you need longer than that, cowboy up or do some damn cardio. Neither the muscle or the nervous system are what's holding you back.
It's as much about willpower as dieting.
90 seconds to be back in position and lifting. Less if you can manage.
I do three times more in an hour than a lot of my buddies do in two to three. Catch your breath and go.
If you need longer than that, cowboy up or do some damn cardio. Neither the muscle or the nervous system are what's holding you back.
It's as much about willpower as dieting.
weighted chinup
Well-known Member
@john11
Regarding rest periods: less than two minutes is ideal. You want to keep a good pace throughout the session, you don't want to be in the gym all day, and it is a bodybuilding routine
.
Regarding rest pause: to clarify some bodybuilding vernacular. There are two commonly used "definitions" of rest pause, the most common being a method of executing a lift (i.e rest/pause machine press, letting the weight stack come down and resting for a brief moment before pressing).
The rest pause you're referring to is the high-intensity technique that has been around a very long time and popularized by DC. It has gone by so many names and has been rebranded, I believe "myo-reps" is another term for it.
It's funny, when I started bodybuilding I did my volume all rest/pause. I did a PPL split with a unique lift selection kept steady year round, and aimed for 50 reps rest pause using a 10RM, resting just long enough to get 3 reps on the subsequent rest pause sets. I made wonderful progress and fast.
If you were to do likewise on this routine, it would cripple you in short order.
Here's what you're doing with restpause/myo-reps - you're essentially repeating the highest effort reps from a set - or the most "effective" reps from each set - the highest RPE reps - repeated constantly until a volume target is hit - and here's the kicker: they're the most fatiguing reps when it comes to systemic and localized recovery.
Increasing intensity with something like restpause is simply not sustainable when the frequency is so damn high on a routine like this. This routine already teeters on the edge of long term sustainability, it doesn't take much to throw the balance and end up with no progress or injury.
Regarding rest periods: less than two minutes is ideal. You want to keep a good pace throughout the session, you don't want to be in the gym all day, and it is a bodybuilding routine
.Regarding rest pause: to clarify some bodybuilding vernacular. There are two commonly used "definitions" of rest pause, the most common being a method of executing a lift (i.e rest/pause machine press, letting the weight stack come down and resting for a brief moment before pressing).
The rest pause you're referring to is the high-intensity technique that has been around a very long time and popularized by DC. It has gone by so many names and has been rebranded, I believe "myo-reps" is another term for it.
It's funny, when I started bodybuilding I did my volume all rest/pause. I did a PPL split with a unique lift selection kept steady year round, and aimed for 50 reps rest pause using a 10RM, resting just long enough to get 3 reps on the subsequent rest pause sets. I made wonderful progress and fast.
If you were to do likewise on this routine, it would cripple you in short order.
Here's what you're doing with restpause/myo-reps - you're essentially repeating the highest effort reps from a set - or the most "effective" reps from each set - the highest RPE reps - repeated constantly until a volume target is hit - and here's the kicker: they're the most fatiguing reps when it comes to systemic and localized recovery.
Increasing intensity with something like restpause is simply not sustainable when the frequency is so damn high on a routine like this. This routine already teeters on the edge of long term sustainability, it doesn't take much to throw the balance and end up with no progress or injury.
weighted chinup
Well-known Member
Also, I'd like to thank @showstoppa for consistently helping out maintaining the quality of information in this thread. I haven't disagreed with a single thing he has advised anyone in this thread or elsewhere in the training section, and believe this routine would have faded in obscurity if not for guys like him keeping discussion active.
Thanks again, friend.
Thanks again, friend.
Thanks @weighted chinup. I love talking with other about intelligent programming like you have put out here.
As far as rest times, what the others need to understand as what they are describing increasing density and that is a form of progression. I don't have time to lay everything out right now but will soon.
Again WC love this thread and the conversation it has started
As far as rest times, what the others need to understand as what they are describing increasing density and that is a form of progression. I don't have time to lay everything out right now but will soon.
Again WC love this thread and the conversation it has started
Thanks for the reply.
Also, if i were to perform 3 reps at a time rest pause style with 20 secs rest in between, to make 9 reps in total, would the body see this as being one set, or would it see it as being 3 sets.
I do agree with your statement that as far as dual factor training is concerned, rest pause will not be compatible, i ask to learn as you have tried it and it does sound intresting. Can you please give more information on how you performed the rest pause.
At 3 reps per set you must have performed 16.66 sets in total of one exercise to make the 50 reps in total, is this not overkill.
Also, if i were to perform 3 reps at a time rest pause style with 20 secs rest in between, to make 9 reps in total, would the body see this as being one set, or would it see it as being 3 sets.
I do agree with your statement that as far as dual factor training is concerned, rest pause will not be compatible, i ask to learn as you have tried it and it does sound intresting. Can you please give more information on how you performed the rest pause.
Last edited:
@weighted chinup
Any chance of a reply, can you please expand on your rest-pause training, how long were the rest periods between the 3 reps, how many exercises and sets per muscle.
Thanks
"Here's the official DC methodology, which is slightly different from Dr. Clay's version:
Say you're getting ready to do barbell military presses. After a few warm-up sets (there's no specific guideline for this, according to SM; just do what you need to do to get your joints and muscles ready to work), you load the bar with a weight you think you can lift 10 times. Do as many reps as you can with perfect form until technical failure, the point at which you can't do another perfect rep.
Put the weight down and take 10 to 15 deep belly breaths. "The deep breaths help supply the body with oxygen and let you partially recover," SM said.
Pick up the weight and do another set of perfect reps until you once again reach technical failure.
Set it down, take 10 to 15 more breaths, and then bang out a few more perfect reps.
Your goal is to do between 11 and 15 total reps. "If you get 15 or more, you know you'll have to increase the weight the next time you do the exercise," SM explained. And if you get fewer than 11, it means you need to either lower the weight or shoot for more reps the next time.
To make it even more brutal, some advanced guys do one static rep to extend the set. Continuing with the shoulder press example, after you set the weight down for the third time, you'd take 10 to 15 more breaths, pick it up, and then hold it in a "power position" (elbows slightly bent), with the muscles under tension for 30 to 60 seconds. But this is only recommended for advanced guys."
Read this article
How to Build 50 Pounds of Muscle in 12 Months | T Nation
Say you're getting ready to do barbell military presses. After a few warm-up sets (there's no specific guideline for this, according to SM; just do what you need to do to get your joints and muscles ready to work), you load the bar with a weight you think you can lift 10 times. Do as many reps as you can with perfect form until technical failure, the point at which you can't do another perfect rep.
Put the weight down and take 10 to 15 deep belly breaths. "The deep breaths help supply the body with oxygen and let you partially recover," SM said.
Pick up the weight and do another set of perfect reps until you once again reach technical failure.
Set it down, take 10 to 15 more breaths, and then bang out a few more perfect reps.
Your goal is to do between 11 and 15 total reps. "If you get 15 or more, you know you'll have to increase the weight the next time you do the exercise," SM explained. And if you get fewer than 11, it means you need to either lower the weight or shoot for more reps the next time.
To make it even more brutal, some advanced guys do one static rep to extend the set. Continuing with the shoulder press example, after you set the weight down for the third time, you'd take 10 to 15 more breaths, pick it up, and then hold it in a "power position" (elbows slightly bent), with the muscles under tension for 30 to 60 seconds. But this is only recommended for advanced guys."
Read this article
How to Build 50 Pounds of Muscle in 12 Months | T Nation
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