Dual-factor Bodybuilding routine for Intermediate and Advanced lifters

[Inquiring Mind]

I'm revisiting the thread a 3rd time now. The first time it just flew over my head...not that It was so complicated but just the inherent reluctance to learn something that opposes convention. This time I took some notes, and also the thread really developed with feedback from brothers that have implemented the program.

At this point everything makes sense to me, but my question for OP, @weighted chinup, is
that if this program is generally concentrated on “strength and size” will the bonafide bodybuilder develope the muscle roundness, separations and definition he or she works so hard for primarily, assuming of course diet is perfectly on point?

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

Muscle shape, definition and separation isnt really tied to specific exercises. In other words the pec dec isnt specifically made for developing striations in the chest. Striations in the chest comes from developing a respectable amount of muscle mass and being low enough BF to see them. And presses of varying types are STILL better than flyes of any type for building muscle mass and strength.

Same goes for leg extensions vs squats, presses and lunges. The latter being superior for a more thorough fiber breakdown.

 

[Docd187123]

Muscle shape, definition and separation isnt really tied to specific exercises. In other words the pec dec isnt specifically made for developing striations in the chest. Striations in the chest comes from developing a respectable amount of muscle mass and being low enough BF to see them. And presses of varying types are STILL better than flyes of any type for building muscle mass and strength.

Same goes for leg extensions vs squats, presses and lunges. The latter being superior for a more thorough fiber breakdown.

I never thought I’d see the day when Trukk got all scientific and shit. Keep talking like that Trukk you’re making me into Mr. happy pants....

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Muscle shape, definition and separation isnt really tied to specific exercises. In other words the pec dec isnt specifically made for developing striations in the chest. Striations in the chest comes from developing a respectable amount of muscle mass and being low enough BF to see them. And presses of varying types are STILL better than flyes of any type for building muscle mass and strength.

Same goes for leg extensions vs squats, presses and lunges. The latter being superior for a more thorough fiber breakdown.

Thanks Truk, I was just concerned that the program wasn’t too power lifter favoring.

Where are you thus far in progress? Have to adapted to another program or have you made adjustment to fit your current goals?

After having gone through the entire programs once, how motivated are you to attempt to repeat it again, given how intense you described it before?

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

Thanks Truk, I was just concerned that the program wasn’t too power lifter favoring.

Where are you thus far in progress? Have to adapted to another program or have you made adjustment to fit your current goals?

After having gone through the entire programs once, how motivated are you to attempt to repeat it again, given how intense you described it before?

Theres only small things that separate BB vs PL. And its not so much the exercise selection. The bench, dead and squat all have a place in BB. Its more the rep ranges. The structure of workouts. The time spent between sets. The accessories that can help prioritize and strengthen the main lifts. Everything a PL does focuses on building those 3 LIFTS. That includes leveraging the weight. PL is all about leverage. BB isnt. The way a BB should do a bench will be different than the way a PL does it. In BB its finding what angles and approaches work best for YOUR bodytype. If you have any doubt about this hit up Ben Pakulski. He explains it well. For example flatbench is a pretty useless exercise for ME and my build to recruit as much of a contraction in my pecs as possible. Just doesnt work for me. Your not going to hear PL talk contractions. Thats not their main concern.

Also for ME and my bodytype i find doing machine based or vertical based back work its best if i come off the seat and pull from a standing position or a position other than what the station dictates. So for example when i do lat pulldowns ill sit on the floor on my knees. Maybe ill use a D handle instead of a fixed bar. This gives me a full stretch and allows me to focus on my ensuing contraction. Those lat pulldown stations are designed for smaller men. Same with a machine. Ill stand off the seat and maybe use my outstretched arm to put distance between me and the seat for a full stretch.

And as far as this program goes i havent used this one in a year or two but ive been experimenting with the high frequency method still. John Meadows has more intelligently designed programs that perform high frequency methods on particular bodyparts one at a time. Some thing this program doesnt allow. High frequency on EVERY bodypart is grueling and ultimately not designed to be long term. For example meadows will do a high frequency back phase that will last maybe 3-4 weeks with everything else at a maintenaince phase. Then switch to maybe high frequency chest so on and so on. Ive found that to be better. But this thread got me thinking outside the box and thats the important thing. The principles are solid. The split is undesirable at this stage for me

 

[showstoppa]

Trucker hit on most things but I will add that this is more of an intermediate program where as Meadows would be more advanced imo.

In my personal opinion a young guy would be best suited to do something like this

Greyskull lp-->madcow or this program or reverse pyramid training dependent style--> Meadows or doggcrapp or fortitude training

The first phase should last up to a year or more if you rotate lifts and do it properly. Second set can last as long as you want so long as proper deloads are taken. But overall the first two levels should take you through the first three years, at least, of training. From there it should be more fine tuning and bringing up lagging body parts or running certain meso cycles to achieve certain goals.

There are certainly other program that fit into these teirs . Plenty from Christian thib, wendler, etc but it's more the principles these programs are based on that determine the teir.

As far as muscle roundness and separation, besides diet all of that is almost based entirely on genetics. Sure it can be worked on and made better, but for the most part, once lean, you either have it or you don't.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Theres only small things that separate BB vs PL. And its not so much the exercise selection. The bench, dead and squat all have a place in BB. Its more the rep ranges. The structure of workouts. The time spent between sets. The accessories that can help prioritize and strengthen the main lifts. Everything a PL does focuses on building those 3 LIFTS. That includes leveraging the weight. PL is all about leverage. BB isnt. The way a BB should do a bench will be different than the way a PL does it. In BB its finding what angles and approaches work best for YOUR bodytype. If you have any doubt about this hit up Ben Pakulski. He explains it well. For example flatbench is a pretty useless exercise for ME and my build to recruit as much of a contraction in my pecs as possible. Just doesnt work for me. Your not going to hear PL talk contractions. Thats not their main concern.

Also for ME and my bodytype i find doing machine based or vertical based back work its best if i come off the seat and pull from a standing position or a position other than what the station dictates. So for example when i do lat pulldowns ill sit on the floor on my knees. Maybe ill use a D handle instead of a fixed bar. This gives me a full stretch and allows me to focus on my ensuing contraction. Those lat pulldown stations are designed for smaller men. Same with a machine. Ill stand off the seat and maybe use my outstretched arm to put distance between me and the seat for a full stretch.

And as far as this program goes i havent used this one in a year or two but ive been experimenting with the high frequency method still. John Meadows has more intelligently designed programs that perform high frequency methods on particular bodyparts one at a time. Some thing this program doesnt allow. High frequency on EVERY bodypart is grueling and ultimately not designed to be long term. For example meadows will do a high frequency back phase that will last maybe 3-4 weeks with everything else at a maintenaince phase. Then switch to maybe high frequency chest so on and so on. Ive found that to be better. But this thread got me thinking outside the box and thats the important thing. The principles are solid. The split is undesirable at this stage for me

I appreciate very much your detailed reply and elaboration.

At 44 years old combating tendinitis is no fun, because I still go hard and although I believe in moving heavy weight but a higher rep range allows me to ease off my ego for heavy weight and focus more on form and movement and contraction...something I was concerned that would fall to the waste side with this program. Thing with me is, I get into something and I’m gonna follow it to the letter. I just don’t want to be aching in the elbows, knees and shoulders at the end of just the first month.


But I have to say, the program is intreating enough that I have been this thread with a pen and note pad.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Trucker hit on most things but I will add that this is more of an intermediate program where as Meadows would be more advanced imo.

In my personal opinion a young guy would be best suited to do something like this

Greyskull lp-->madcow or this program or reverse pyramid training dependent style--> Meadows or doggcrapp or fortitude training

The first phase should last up to a year or more if you rotate lifts and do it properly. Second set can last as long as you want so long as proper deloads are taken. But overall the first two levels should take you through the first three years, at least, of training. From there it should be more fine tuning and bringing up lagging body parts or running certain meso cycles to achieve certain goals.

There are certainly other program that fit into these teirs . Plenty from Christian thib, wendler, etc but it's more the principles these programs are based on that determine the teir.

As far as muscle roundness and separation, besides diet all of that is almost based entirely on genetics. Sure it can be worked on and made better, but for the most part, once lean, you either have it or you don't.

I’m far from advanced, but I’m not green either. Been wanting for some time to get away from the conventional splits. I’ve been creative over the years. I come from the time when you have to get your information form Flex magazine or Muscle & Fitness. Nowadays, everybody and the mothers on instagram or whatever social media are selling programs. Just about everybody is an accomplished expert. Don’t know anymore who are the real and who are carbon copies selling the same shit to everyone.

This program here by OP feels like he took a pen to paper, did a lot of reflecting and thinking and laid it down.

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

I appreciate very much your detailed reply and elaboration.

At 44 years old combating tendinitis is no fun, because I still go hard and although I believe in moving heavy weight but a higher rep range allows me to ease off my ego for heavy weight and focus more on form and movement and contraction...something I was concerned that would fall to the waste side with this program. Thing with me is, I get into something and I’m gonna follow it to the letter. I just don’t want to be aching in the elbows, knees and shoulders at the end of just the first month.


But I have to say, the program is intreating enough that I have been this thread with a pen and note pad.

The program calls for a 5 rep day a 8 rep day and a 10 rep day. If weight is TRULY an issue and BB is more a focus then perform your work rest/pause fashion. Choose either a 1 sec pause all the way up to a 5 sec pause each rep. That will accomplish alot of things. Namely forcing you to work with a lighter workload and in the process damage a ton of fibers BB style. It helps in generating static power from a dead stop and focus on the contractions at hand. This would work great for the 5(low) rep days

 

[Inquiring Mind]

The program calls for a 5 rep day a 8 rep day and a 10 rep day. If weight is TRULY an issue and BB is more a focus then perform your work rest/pause fashion. Choose either a 1 sec pause all the way up to a 5 sec pause each rep. That will accomplish alot of things. Namely forcing you to work with a lighter workload and in the process damage a ton of fibers BB style. It helps in generating static power from a dead stop and focus on the contractions at hand. This would work great for the 5(low) rep days

I like how that sounds! Thanks brother!

 

[luex]

Is there anyway to toss calves and abs into the mix? And which days?

 

[showstoppa]

Imo ab work can be thrown in daily or in a morning session.


As far as calves, Im of the belief there are two ways to train calves, extreme high frequency or high intensity.

For high frequency- perform 2 sets 6days a week. 2 days standing, 2 days sitting, 2 days donkey.

The better way Imo is 2-3 times a week training with high intensity using DC training style. 20 second reps, it's a 8 second negative, 10 second hold in the stretched position, 2 second hold at the top.

 

[luex]

Any replacement for the leg extensions? I’ve been feeling some discomfort in one of my knees lately-after starting this and I think going heavier on the leg extensions is the culprit. I go heavy but they’re slow and controlled reps but I think this could still be doing damage to my knee. Are there any replacements? Or should I stick it out?

It’s below my knee cap on my right leg..not a painful feeling. Just feel like there’s a lot of pressure built up in that spot when I crouch down/squat.

 

[showstoppa]

Try sissy squats if you can. Drop the extensions though and see if you get better and pain goes away.

 

[luex]

Threw out the extension but these front squats are killing my knees...I’ve never had any problems with my knees either...I don’t even know what to replace it with? Traditional squat but then I have hams the next day..

 

[showstoppa]

Hack squats.

 

[luex]

That’s what I was thinking- well what I did today anyway. It’s so odd my knees hurt during the front and not a back squat..I’m still starting with my hips first on both.

 

[showstoppa]

Would have to see video to figure out what you are doing but if they hurt, don't do them. Period.

Bodybuilding is about consistency, can't be consistent if you are hurting.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Threw out the extension but these front squats are killing my knees...I’ve never had any problems with my knees either...I don’t even know what to replace it with? Traditional squat but then I have hams the next day..

How about zercher squats?

 

[Necessary Evil]

@weighted chinup How would you manipulate volume and exercise selection if you were to condense this program to four days per week?