Dual-factor Bodybuilding routine for Intermediate and Advanced lifters

Discussion in 'Training Forum' started by weighted chinup, Feb 12, 2016.

  1. KetoMuscles

    KetoMuscles Member

    Great read. Glad this thread got bumped back up.
  2. john11

    john11 Member

    To perform ten belly breaths takes me 25 seconds, does that sound about right.

    One last question which i would appreciate and answer for, a friend of mine did a gym course a few years ago. I was not interested in training at the time so did not ask ask many questions.
    My friend said on the course he was instructed to do more of a cardio based workout in the mornings, and heavy weights in the afternoons.
    On a few other posts it seems pro bodybuilders do the same thing. Kali Muscle on his channel talks about doing a thousand press ups every morning, saying it stretches the muscle fascia and allows for better growth.
    What do people do on their cardio mornings.
  3. I train twice a day currently and do cardio twice as well, sessions are in the evening so mornings are to take care of real life stuff.

    If I had to pick a morning activity though, do hot yoga. Lots of benefits for flexibility, mobility, relaxation, feeling good, heat-shock protein for recovery, and benefits towards insulin sensitivity.
  4. john11

    john11 Member


    What are your feelings towards a 10 minute jog followed by 20 minutes of punchbag work, performed twice a day, once in the mornings then once again in the evenings.
    Some people say jogging twice a day causes muscle loss, some say it is okay as long as you have the calories to support it. What is your standing on this complex situation.
    Also, Is there any merit to Kali Muscle and his high rep workout everyday, stretching the fascia as he calls it. I have heard of people doing something similar with capillary density training, and active recovery.

  5. Mac11wildcat

    Mac11wildcat Member AnabolicLab.com Supporter

    My OPINION here as a bodybuilder is this is not an advanced bodybuilding routine. It is “advanced” but training movements and training muscle are not the same. Everyone is different, but I have my reasons. And to me this is not enough work especially for the big muscle groups like legs and back when weighed against volume and failure.

    Here’s my reasoning.

    1. Your primary movements paired with accessory - let’s just start with front squats. 69 reps per week at 75-85% 1RM. That is your ONLY quad movement that is based on progressive overload with high intensity, yes? Add to that ONLY 90 reps per week of isolation/accessory work on leg extensions. That’s 160 reps total IF you assume front squats are quad work only. If you’ve never hit high volume, high weight sets of 15-20+ on leg press, squats, hacks you are missing MAJOR growth potential.

    On another note, if you do not regularly test a 1RM, you’re SOL. My 1RM would not stack up anywhere near my ability to perform reps with a % of that 1RM on squats.

    Back - you’re training it directly EVERY single day either through chins or pull-ups with little to no work in the plane perpendicular to your body (56 reps a week of “accessory” rows and some light reverse flyes)

    Chest - zero accessory work and absolutely no volume with your only primary chest movement being an Incline Press

    Shoulders - zero OHP anywhere for the duration

    2. Your selection of movements for 1RM basis - this may also be my opinion, but RDL, pull-ups, and dips are not movements where 1RM should be considered in their performance, not for bodybuilders or really anyone. They are indeed great movements, but if your goal is development based off compound lifts and their heavy sets I believe your standard should be a row, a standard or sumo DL, and an OHP. The synergy of the dip in chest/delts/triceps should be accomplished with presses, not dips.

    3. Programmed deloads - i struggle with this on EVERY level as a bodybuilder. IMO hypertrophy work need not be so intense that you need a full weeks break every 4-6 weeks. Training the muscle and training yourself into extreme fatigue is not 1:1 to me.

    4. Bodybuilding work is absurdly simple because there isn’t usually a need to make it complicated. Growth is not sitrcity based off of weight moved and therefore a tricky protocol to manage the workload; hypertrophy is far more diverse than that and the lack of movement diversity/movements with good bracing for true muscle involvement, lack of failure/high rep sets/intensity techniques to go beyond failure is going to leave growth on the table.

    5. The periodization and undulation is narrow. Your range is 75-85% only, with reps never below 5 or over 10 on the intense sets (and since you’ve said no failure, there’s no variation here).

    This is strictly my opinion. No hate intended. I do not think this sort of routine leads to superior muscle development and an aesthetic look. There’s a reason this sort of program isn’t being used by anyone who’s of significance in the pro bodybuilding world.

    This is however what I’d consider an extremely capable performance based routine. Training primary lifts 3x a week with strength based functional movements does that job.
    weighted chinup likes this.
  6. None took, I actually agree with a lot of what you said.

    It's funny, I wrote this program about 3 years ago and it should go without saying, preferences and methods change in 3 years of training if someone is applying themselves and trying to move forward in their goal.

    I disagree with some minor points but I think the overall point you make is a valid criticism of this particular style of training for hypertrophy purposes but it's important to keep in mind there is always going to be a demand for this approach to training when it comes to hypertrophy.

    There was a period in time online where any decent hypertrophy program used similar tech to the stuff in this program: high specificity (not a fan of this one any longer), dual factor approach to recovery, planned deloads etc (again, not a fan any longer).

    That seemed to go away for a while and I've always had a personal fascination with that approach to hypertrophy training, so I implemented my own variation of it, and this routine was born.

    I've always taken a hands-off approach to criticism ITT for the most part because I believe programs should speak for themselves, and mostly because on a personal level I have evolved and changed my training style dramatically, but also because if there are holes and flaws I want them to be exposed, and exposed publicly so people can factor that in their decision making.

    However, with that said, this approach to hypertrophy training can lead to superior muscle growth in I would say all but the advanced lifters who have a true grasp of setting up their training. This isn't a bold claim at all and I think the testimonials of the guys who have used this program are some proof of that, but lets look at it pragmatically: the average lifter on gear is more or less just winging it with their training, put them on something planned/methodical (anything really) and they will experience superior growth in the long term.

    (I also believe this "style" of training is vastly superior for the drug-free lifter, but that's another discussion entirely.)
  7. showstoppa

    showstoppa Member AnabolicLab.com Supporter

    As far as this not leading to superior gains and using pro bbers as examples....pro bodybuilding is an extreme portion of bodybuilding. It is more about drugs than anything else.

    This style, along with things like doggcrapp, mountain dog and fortitude training all lead to superior muscle growth in the natural trainee and lower level enhanced guys. Daunte trudal proved this over a decade ago. Most people need size, period. High frequency training on compound exercises plus gains in strength = gains in muscle.

    Put somebody just starting out on greyskull for 18 months eating 300g protein a day, then to this for 12-18 months at 2*bw in grams of protein and after 3 years you will be stairing at a yoked strong son of a bitch. That is not the case for most following traditional bb routine.

    As far as your other criticisms, some are very valid and simply adjusting the accessories would fix it or improve it. I should say run the program for a while before coming to some of your conclusions. Different doesn't mean worse.

    Disagree about a deload though. This is a power building program, deloads are almost always going to be needed. Now I disagree with many on this though as I don't like them to be scheduled, because as non professionals life tends to find a way of giving you a deload. Especially those with kids/family obligations and stressful careers.
  8. deepsouthiron

    deepsouthiron Member AnabolicLab.com Supporter

    @weighted chinup got a frequency question for you...also shameless bump for this great program.. I've always done well with frequency based stuff and have ran many waves of PH3. I've started this very recently again after running it a few years back. The most recent iteration of this you took out weighted dips in favor of flat bench for shoulder health. With that said that has me benching 6 days a week. Thoughts on that?

    On PH3 I benched and squatted 4/5. This is 6/6 for bench. I know I'm not hitting failure and that's why the deloads over time.
  9. I would probably switch one of the BB movements to DB, whichever angle you prefer to do with dumbbells. I never had any issues and I don't believe others did because the single session and weekly volume is within recoverable limits for most people (taking into account the planned deload of course), but I believe it is prudent to be conservative when it comes to stress on joints and junctions.

    Splitting up the volume across more sessions is really a fantastic way to minimize stress and prevent high volume from turning into junk volume so I am not necessarily convinced the pressing will be too much but I still think to switch one of the BB movements to a DB press will prove to be beneficial in the long term, for growth and longevity as well.

    Glad to hear this program has treated you well man, I wrote it when I was a fiend for high frequency a few years back and really enjoyed it, as did a few others who ran it as well. It's definitely a lot of fun and very rewarding to dedicate a few months of the year to train in this style. If the goal is BB I wouldn't do something like this year round per se but it can be beneficial to dedicate a few mesocycles of training to something barebones and minimalistic like this.

    In hindsight, I would probably be waaay more conservative in my programming when writing a program to be released publicly, admittedly I'm willing to push certain variables higher than I would recommend others do, but I think someone with your level of experience with high frequency can make necessary changes if even needed.
    Millard Baker and deepsouthiron like this.
  10. deepsouthiron

    deepsouthiron Member AnabolicLab.com Supporter

    @weighted chinup appreciate the reply. That's the exact change I had made was moving the incline work to DB ... Appreciate your insight on the frequency. As always your opinions and view point on training are always appreciated
    weighted chinup likes this.
  11. c_natty

    c_natty Member

    3 years later, still vouching for this program. Have made quite a few tweaks for it over time, yet have never strayed too far. have converted all of my acquaintances to it, and they have never left this style of training, unless they are too pussy to start it to begin with. Some things to note:

    If you are running anything like this program, your carbs need to be HIGH. As in 50+% of diet. On top of this, I have found that the ultimate cure to keeping intensity high throughout the entire workout is to bring a large hydroflask to the gym everyday, with himalayan sea salt and two scoops of gatorade powder in it. Once you finish half of it, go to the faucet and fill it back up to the top.

    Obviously, when on cut you are going to need to lower the volume drastically. On cut, focus almost entirely on maintaining your strength on the compound movements. Once you get lean, and start increasing your calories again, if your numbers have stayed close to the same, they will drastically increase while bulking back up.

    I never really gain fat with this program. If I want to shred, I add a set of 20 reps on front squats on Day A, and a set of 20 deadlifts on Day B, while lowering volume across the board and taking more rest days. This revs up my metabolism like crazy, and bodyfat goes way down.

    When I feel like getting strong, I perform heavy doubles on squats or deads depending on the day. If calories are high enough, and eating enough food/sleeping well, 1rm goes up every week.

    @weighted chinup I have plenty more anecdotal evidence if you have any questions. Thanks again.
    showstoppa and Millard Baker like this.