E2 all over the place on Test/Mast

[lunarloom2500]

I'm on 200mg Test E and 200mg Mast E. I experience both low and high estrogen sides such as soft errections, loss of sensitivity, no appetite, pissing a lot, often crying and somewhat bad sleep.

From what I know bloodwork is useless because Mast doesn’t reduce E2 but acts as a SERM. What would you guys do?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

but seriously. Masteron is like salt. can go with anything.

Doesn't make the meal, but can definitely make it better

I talked about it before. had to compare the anabolism of Test to Mast?

its probably like a 1 to 0.4-0.5 in regards to "anabolism"


OP if you are getting estrogenic issues from 200 test, then may god have mercy on your soul.

 

[Liter O' Test]

but seriously. Masteron is like salt. can go with anything, definitel can make it better.

Doesn't make the meal.

I talked about it before. had to compare the anabolism of Test to Mast?

its probably like a 1 to 0.4-0.5 in regards to "anabolism"


OP if you are getting estrogenic issues from 200 test, then may god have mercy on your soul.

great contribution, a nonsense analogy and a number pulled out of your butt about its anabolism, both having nothing to do with the original post.

Did you read the post?

OP if you are getting estrogenic issues from 200 test, then may god have mercy on your soul.

Hes taking masteron, who said he was having estrogen issues from testosterone? Many people have the side effects he described from masteron.

either you don't know this or you are intentionally ignoring the part about masteron so you can be patronizing

 

[88general88]

View attachment 291048

Exactly

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

great contribution, a nonsense analogy and a number pulled out of your butt about its anabolism, both having nothing to do with the original post.

I was following up my previous friendly attack at @lukiss96 . I wasn't responding to OP for that part.

Hes taking masteron, who said he was having estrogen issues from testosterone? Many people have the side effects he described from masteron.

either you don't know this or you are intentionally ignoring the part about masteron so you can be patronizing

He is have problems with E2 control? states it is being too high and too low?

Where does his e2 come from? aromatized from his testosterone.

Who has sides like that from Masteron? Some may, but not many people do.

 

[trtbuilder]

great contribution, a nonsense analogy and a number pulled out of your butt about its anabolism, both having nothing to do with the original post.

Did you read the post?


Hes taking masteron, who said he was having estrogen issues from testosterone? Many people have the side effects he described from masteron.

either you don't know this or you are intentionally ignoring the part about masteron so you can be patronizing

OP thinks bloodwork is useless, thus everyone, including you, is just guessing what the problem is.

Let's not pretend this is a well informed thread.

 

[Liter O' Test]

OP thinks bloodwork is useless, thus everyone, including you, is just guessing what the problem is.

Let's not pretend this is a well informed thread.

Regardless we should give people good advice.

It wouldn't be hard to start out in the wrong places learning about AAS and not know what is what, I'm sure i can find posts all over the internet of people saying bloodwork is useless on masteron due to some "half truth" reasoning like it can give you low estrogen side effects while having normal estrogen, or that it can make you feel like your estrogen is range, despite having high estrogen.

Then combine this with the fact it seems like the people that are most against A.Is, and have the most controversial opinions seem to be the loudest people in some places. spamming how bad A.Is are and how you dont need to take them, and how you should take EQ/PRIMO/MAST instead or people that believe that having triple digit e2 is totally fine, giving advice out to new people. These people are the loudest and most confident (because of their estrogen) and i cant fault any new user for listening to this advice.

This is why we get so many primo and masteron questions.

We even had a guy get told to stop taking A.I despite having bloodwork that his e2 was PERFECT on aromasin, literally within 1 p/mol of his natural levels, and told to take proviron instead.

i was in a steroid discord and I merely said how much a.i I was taking, an hour later someone tagged and replied to me, spamming how toxic A.I was and im going to die, went so far as using voice messages so they can preach to me while they were at work, frantically telling me how bad it was. So i cant fault these new guys for having no idea what they are doing when there are some real weridos in this space now

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

So i cant fault these new guys for having no idea what they are doing when there are some real weridos in this space now

They are asking questions without giving enough context, same thing as you.

You were one of them, you still haven't changed much since your first thread here.

 

[Liter O' Test]

They are asking questions without giving enough context, same thing as you.

You were one of them, you still haven't changed much since your first thread here.

Now your excuse for not giving helpful/accurate information is blaming the guy for not giving enough context?

He told us what he is taking and what his symptoms are, what more does he need to tell us?

If he truly didnt give enough context, then why didnt you ask him for more details?

You were one of them, you still haven't changed much since your first thread here.

more patronizing and snarky remarks. Really proving me wrong here.

 

[laclark89]

Now your excuse for not giving helpful/accurate information is blaming the guy for not giving enough context?

He told us what he is taking and what his symptoms are, what more does he need to tell us?

If he truly didnt give enough context, then why didnt you ask him for more details?


more patronizing and snarky remarks. Really proving me wrong here.

I’m sure we can all patronize a bit.
snarky we can absolutely be that at times , while at the same time having peoples best interest at heart. I think we all like busting balls a bit that’s kinda what dudes do coming from where I’m from it’s just tough love.

Don’t feel bad I am one of the ones spaceman was talking about too lol. But I’ve learned a hell of a lot here from well known members but also regular even new members, I’m sure u have also.

but seriously. Masteron is like salt. can go with anything.

Doesn't make the meal, but can definitely make

its probably like a 1 to 0.4-0.5 in regards to "anabolism"

Do u know what decca or npp would be compared to test? Probably closer to a 1 to 1 if I remember right?

It's cuz mast is overrated af. To me it's useless drug, that's right I can't call it a steroid as it's too weak for that. I get no magical benefits and of course I need an AI as it doesn't help much. I guess some like it and find it usable, but I will not discount the placebo effect those preachers get from it.

I gota kinda agree here with u and spaceman that it’s just like salt.

But after learning myself after a few cycles of experimenting, I get way more out of say 500 test 300 decca than I would 500 300 mast

But the decca will give me emotional sides that the mast won’t, and the mast I may be a bit tighter.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Do u know what decca or npp would be compared to test? Probably closer to a 1 to 1 if I remember right?

IDK. I was throwing numbers out of my ass.

I would say Test to NPP might be 1:1.2 in favor of Deca/NPP.

But the decca will give me emotional sides that the mast won’t, and the mast I may be a bit tighter.

I agree. I ran 750 Test D/U combo. and 800 mast. 4iu of HGH. Smooth cycle and run.

*I just realized I have been cruising for almost 4 months

 

[laclark89]

IDK. I was throwing numbers out of my ass.

I would say Test to NPP might be 1:1.2 in favor of Deca/NPP.

I agree. I ran 750 Test D/U combo. and 800 mast. 4iu of HGH. Smooth cycle and run.

*I just realized I have been cruising for almost 4 months

4 months ? It’s time to blast off back to outer space lol.

Yea I try a keep my test around 500-750 max on cycle but I handle mast well no sides might as well try upping the dose on it a bit next time.

 

[HUGE McBIGLARGE]

the problem with adjusting e2 based on blood results is what the fuck is your e2 even meant to be when your T is above range?

The answer varies depending on who you ask. Something between the middle of the range to a ratio between e2 and T.

Androgens can antagonise some but not necessarily all estrogenic effects, so that makes things more complicated.

If your e2 is above the middle of the range but at or below the T:E2 ratio target, then you’ve gotta go based on feels and biomarkers other than e2.

 

[Liter O' Test]

the problem with adjusting e2 based on blood results is what the fuck is your e2 even meant to be when your T is above range?

its supposed to be in range, what other marker do we want to be out of range if X is also out of range? (besides obviously like LH,FSH etc)

If your e2 is above the middle of the range but at or below the T:E2 ratio target, then you’ve gotta go based on feels and biomarkers other than e2.

no thats a step backwards, people went off of feels and symptoms before testing for estrogen was commonplace.

there is no T:E2 target or ratio. If you are a male and your estrogen is out of range, then it is out of range. you will have estrogen side effects regardless of what your testosterone is or if you "feel" them or not, because if its high, its high.

 

[HUGE McBIGLARGE]

its supposed to be in range, what other marker do we want to be out of range if X is also out of range? (besides obviously like LH,FSH etc)

no thats a step backwards, people went off of feels and symptoms before testing for estrogen was commonplace.

there is no T:E2 target or ratio. If you are a male and your estrogen is out of range, then it is out of range. you will have estrogen side effects regardless of what your testosterone is or if you "feel" them or not, because if its high, its high.

Do you got a source on a study where men with T out of range do best when e2 is in range? Because I’ve never seen one.

There’s a whole load of studies showing androgens inhibit estrogenic effects. The most robust evidence is on androgens being used to treat breast cancer, as well as androgens inhibiting breast growth despite exogenous estrogen.

Testosterone inhibits estrogen/progestogen-induced breast cell proliferation in postmenopausal women - PubMed

Addition of testosterone may counteract breast cell proliferation as induced by estrogen/progestogen therapy in postmenopausal women.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This study suggests that supraphysiological estrogen improves libido in men on TRT

The role of estradiol in male reproductive function

Traditionally, testosterone and estrogen have been considered to be male and female sex hormones, respectively. However, estradiol, the predominant form of estrogen, also plays a critical role in male sexual function. Estradiol in men is essential for ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

showed that libido was increased in men receiving TST when testosterone levels were >300 ng dl-1 and estradiol levels were >5 ng dl-1. Most compelling is the fact that in men with serum testosterone <300 ng dl-1, sexual drive was seen to be markedly higher when estradiol levels were >5 ng dl-1.[URL='https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4854098/#ref19']19[/URL] In addition, when patients with low testosterone were treated with letrozole, a potent aromatase inhibitor, libido was decreased, suggesting that complete elimination of estradiol and decreasing the T/E ratio too severely, adversely affects sexual desire in men

Until I see some evidence that e2 should be in range regardless of your T, I’m gonna keep believing that you’ve gotta feelz your way through it.

 

[Liter O' Test]

Do you got a source on a study where men with T out of range do best when e2 is in range? Because I’ve never seen one.

a study?
you can google all the risks associated with high estrogen levels in men. just because androgens can prevent the formation of breast tissue doesnt mean they negate all the other negative effects

relating to
prostate
blood pressure
mood
cognition
thromboembolic events
and other downstream effects that are more complex because we don't have a lot of information relating to men having 3x-20x normal estrogen levels, im not saying you are advocating for estrogen levels 10x normal but there is a slippery slope and im sure it cannot be healthy just because breast tissue is not formed

we dont want prolactin out of range do we? whats the difference?

 

[HUGE McBIGLARGE]

a study?
you can google all the risks associated with high estrogen levels in men. just because androgens can prevent the formation of breast tissue doesnt mean they negate all the other negative effects

relating to
prostate
blood pressure
mood
cognition
thromboembolic events
and other downstream effects that are more complex because we don't have a lot of information relating to men having 3x-20x normal estrogen levels, im not saying you are advocating for estrogen levels 10x normal but there is a slippery slope and im sure it cannot be healthy just because breast tissue is not formed

How do you know the extent to which androgens antagonise estrogenic effects?

For all we know, normal e2 with high T induces low e2 effects. This is why there’s an argument for a T:E2 ratio.

It is widely accepted amongst the broscience community that DHTs can be used to treat high estrogen symptoms without actually lowering estrogen. And the evidence supports it.

There’s a lot of very weak evidence to suggest T:E2 ratio matters most, and there’s no evidence to suggest in range E2 matters most (with high T). I’d trust people’s anecdotes and my own feels more than the weak evidence, and people’s anecdotes are pretty equally divided between the T:E2 doctrine and in range e2 doctrine. So what’s the right answer? Beats me!

we dont want prolactin out of range do we? whats the difference?

Why not? I agree on not having high prolactin, but why not low?

Low prolactin causes improvements to male sexual function, increases insulin sensitivity, decreases body fat, and lowers blood pressure.

As far as I’m concerned, prolactin is meant for childbearing women. Not studs like me.

 

[ksm2]

I agree on not having high prolactin, but why not low?

Low prolactin causes improvements to male sexual function

Because low prolactin makes you c um in a minute.

 

[HUGE McBIGLARGE]

Because low prolactin makes you c um in a minute.

Think of your nan and it’ll cancel out

 

[Musmadar]

Because low prolactin makes you c um in a minute.

It's the opposite....

 

[Liter O' Test]

How do you know the extent to which androgens antagonise estrogenic effects?

Low prolactin causes improvements to male sexual function, increases insulin sensitivity, decreases body fat, and lowers blood pressure.

As far as I’m concerned, prolactin is meant for childbearing women. Not studs like me.

i dont think anything should be out of range besides testosterone, I want my thyroid, cholesterol, blood count, liver enzymes etc all in range.

Because low prolactin makes you c um in a minute.

exactly, ive experienced this and ruined a good thing I had. caber is very potent