I have yet to try primo. I guess it's because some people live it and some say it's not worth the cost. Mast to me makes the most sense
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
For those of you who play the 200mg test game and then add tons of anabolics on top, which do you use? I can't tolerate masteron at any dose.
- Thread starter jtmarlin
- Start date
rexy
Member
Thank you for the detailed response. It's interesting to hear about a different approach. Whether the theory is correct or not, you've shown the approach can work!Thanks man I appreciate you saying that. I think my face looked so terrible before is because I was so extremely underweight. Technically anorexic, not anorexia nervous-, but I worked about 110 hours per week for prob 80% of a decade in my 20s and didn’t eat till I got home.
I was 140-145lb very lean in high school though since I was a pro level athlete racing dirt bikes. Also after I nearly died in a crash and got fucked with that I was hooked on opiates deep from 2012-2015. So just grinding working on opiates and adderall like a robot.
To answer your favorite drug question. It seems anything that fits in with my SHBG^ protocol all gave me equivalent results (with the exception of cutting and cosmetic look with certain drugs). To grow I got this idea from vigorous Steve that shbg might be important, and may be why steroids lose effectiveness the longer your on cycle since shbg goes down. And shbg has its own receptor that compliments the regular Androgen Receptor.
That’s all just theory.. but I got lucky by accident and found a way to raise or maintain shbg even on grams and the first time I restored my shbg from 9 to 15+ it felt like I got on cycle all over again. In my opinion the shbg protocol may be part of why I was able to grow faster than average. Test,dht,dhb, proviron, and some others have ability to crush shbg magnitudes higher than other drugs like primo, anavar, deca, tren, boldenone. So instead I’ve run Deca only + estradiol to maintain adequate e2, or EQ+Primo+e2, or Primo+Tren+E2 and end up with an shbg that’s higher than it other wise would be if using test to achieve that same level of estradiol. I use estradiol cypionate right now but have used enanthate and valerate in the past. IMO, the reason why dht derivatives are known for crushing shbg isn’t to do with the primo/mast itself, it’s because they block or lower e2. E2 is the primary shbgforce. And Test+DHT are the primary shbg
force. So test +primo skews the ratio of androgen to estrogens in the body and thus lowering shbg. However primo on its own for example only has an SHBG binding affinity of 3%. Testosterone is 70%, DHT is 100%, proviron is 70-400%. So I found Primo only for example to not crush my shbg level when my e2 was manually maintained with exogenous estradiol. In which case I can take as many mg of primo as I wish and it has no effect on my serum e2 level because all of my e2 is being supplied exogenously.
So long story short, a go to stack for me now has been Primo or boldenone with it without Tren Hex. Tren hex is my favorite Tren ester since for whatever reason Tren E just doesn’t work for me the same way, and tren ace isn’t as long lasting. Tren hex and Tren ace are equal in performance for me and I can’t tell a difference, but Tren hex lasts longer and can be 150mg/ml without any Benzyl benzoate which I also prefer in my oils to be solvent free.
To focus in on the takeaways, if I understood you correctly, you have the following core compounds:
- Primo, anavar, nandrolone, tren
- you run them without test and with exogeneous E2
- In theory, masteron could be included as a core compound as long as it's ran under the same conditions primo is.
Just to clarify, there was a typo that said 'a go to stack for me now has been Primo or boldenone with it without Tren Hex'. Am I right in that this was supposed to originally read 'without test' but you then deleted that part and went to type 'with tren hex' and so the sentence got a bit muddled? Just wanting to double check the intended meaning.
I've ran boldenone-only cycles before at high dose and noticed no ill effects, and I've been tempted to give a similar cycle another go but with a dianabol base in place of the exogenous E2 to simplify a bit. Or just boldenone/nandrolone at a dose which produces enough, just to have a change of pace and experiment.
Last questions -
1) do you find you have to dose the boldenone/nandrolone quite high to make up for the lack of test conversion to E2/DHT?
2) Have you/do you use GH alongside these protocols?
3) What compounds do you pivot to during a cut - I assume anavar and tren?
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rokkrul3r
New Member
I'm feeling test prop is really overlooked... Running 700mg of prop might with a DHT of your choosing might be the best way to feel, look and actually be blasty while not going overboard on toxic shit
Seriously considering just doing 0.5ml of test and mast prop ED for 3 months and assessing
rexy
Member
I have considered the same and bought some vials to trial it out.
I'm coming to the end of a cycle on longer esters, and usually put prop/acetate in daily to make the most of the last 2 weeks whilst the long ones are still clearing. Next time, I'm just considering using the shorter esters for the entire thing.
I think the psychological effect of shorter esters is massively beneficial and under-appreciated. Not only is the same mg dose equivalent to a higher amount of longer esters due to AUC, but knowing the ester is so quickly in-and-out is also beneficial. Like, you could stop that protocol on any given day and by 24hrs it'd be all pretty much completely out the system. I think there is something to that in the back of a person's mind that helps feel better on the shorter esters.
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Trenbolonetax
Well-known Member
When I started back up on AAS, it was test prop and mast prop. 350mg of each per week I think had me feeling probably the best I've ever felt on "blast". I think there is definitely something to the quick acting in and out, peak and trough nature of it.
rexy
Member
It's become common to focus on stable levels but I honestly don't think there is a benefit to it - and that it's a psychological one because the person thinks it's beneficial. Of course, if it works for them, it works - and I'm all for what fits the individual.
At the end of the day, blood levels show hormone sat around. Quick acting pulses from shorter esters has to be working faster because the hormone is getting cleared from the blood quicker.
I also know from experience that with long esters, I experience a benefit from bolus doses vs. smaller peaks of daily. If nothing else, it can be a beenfit to the non-genomic response - hence why some people do suspension 100mg pre-workout etc. That wouldn't work if a bolus wasn't doing somerthing stable levels don't.
Trenbolonetax
Well-known Member
100% agree with you. I've come full circle. Believe that more stable does not = more better. I think some folks get some benefit from doing cyp daily to limit certain sides, while for others, that will actually make them feel worse, lower libido, etc.
I believe Cataceous (sp?) on Excel male uses a blend of cyp and prop and mimic physiologic peak and trough.
When I'm done with my current blast, I'm going right back to test p and mast p daily for some TRT++ and just going to chase that true "feel good" goldilocks zone.
rexy
Member
Funny you say that because I too have come full circle and part of what tipped me over the threshold was a link from @readalot
This one:
Testosterone (no ester) Suspension for Injection - Literature Review
Going to do a thread on what is often referred to as TNE (Testosterone No Ester) on here. This preparation would be crystalline testosterone in an aqueous suspension (e.g., Aquaviron). I'll see what I can find on pharmacokinetics as well. Building off of @madman 's post here...
www.excelmale.com
Lots of reading but it shows the activity for both prop and suspension is longer than we realise. This screenshot is quite far down the page:
Prior to this I'd thought that shorter esters clearing within a day from the blood meant 'that's all folks' and the compound was done and your effect was over - but clearly, clearing from the blood is only part of it, hence my comment above about blood levels just showing what's lingering around. Even prop has lasting effects that stick around longer than the compound itself. It opened my eyes quite a bit; and to the fact that even prop on a wider-injection frequency could be powerful. It also feels psychologically 'cleaner' to me personally and feels like you're more in control of the compound.
Trenbolonetax
Well-known Member
Hahaha I was looking at all this shit super in depth after I got my wife pregnant before I hopped on again. I was going to do test suspension in the AM and then enclomiphene in the PM; but not too much test suspension in the AM that it would blunt the impact of enclomiphene in the PM (completely).Funny you say that because I too have come full circle and part of what tipped me over the threshold was a link from @readalot
This one:
Testosterone (no ester) Suspension for Injection - Literature Review
Going to do a thread on what is often referred to as TNE (Testosterone No Ester) on here. This preparation would be crystalline testosterone in an aqueous suspension (e.g., Aquaviron). I'll see what I can find on pharmacokinetics as well. Building off of @madman 's post here...
Lots of reading but it shows the activity for both prop and suspension is longer than we realise. This screenshot is quite far down the page:
View attachment 304986
Prior to this I'd thought that shorter esters clearing within a day from the blood meant 'that's all folks' and the compound was done and your effect was over - but clearly, clearing from the blood is only part of it, hence my comment above about blood levels just showing what's lingering around. Even prop has lasting effects that stick around longer than the compound itself. It opened my eyes quite a bit; and to the fact that even prop on a wider-injection frequency could be powerful. It also feels psychologically 'cleaner' to me personally and feels like you're more in control of the compound.
Stumbled across the test prop / test suspension AQ solutions having longer half life than thought due to the crystals surviving in body (I think there is a horse study on suspension AQ somewhere).
Anyways....long story short now i'm blasting long esters and megadosing HCG + HMG hoping to maintain fertility lol.
I was mostly looking into prop and suspension from a fertility preservation standpoint to reduce the AUC as it's demonstrated shorter esters = less suppression which makes sense since less time spent at supraphysiologic blood levels.
Anyhow, not to derail this completely, but it opened my eyes to common misconceptions with prop + suspension half life and different vehicles altering half life significantly.
Grey Spartan
Member
I found this out when I got sold Test-P instead of Tren-A. Gains and feeling were amazing.
100%
Ateam2023
Well-known Member
i just dislike the "injection discomfort" "PIP" that one gets from test p, its undeniable,,,
rexy
Member
That's fair. A nice way to remind yourself these esters are acids - and temporarily disable yourself in the process - is have a test prop/tren ace injection leak sub-q in the quad.
Trenbolonetax
Well-known Member
Fuck man, you’re not joking. Been there. Limping for days.
bigpoppachump2
Well-known Member
I get worse crippling pip from test e than I do from prop. Never really had too big of an issue with prop other than son soreness that dissipates over 48hrs.
rokkrul3r
New Member
I injected first time full of fear, but since I bulked on 1.5g of sust, I think my body just got used to prop
I only get moderate burning pip from tren
Still need to try primo to see if I'm really 100% pip resilient
I inject daily for TRT and I use .1cc with a tiny insulin needle and even 300 test e became annoying not to mention at 30mg per day I was 1500+ ng/dl and 46 free T which are both thru the roof at that dose. It's not fun to have a low level PIP multiple days of week. 200mg test cyp is painless especially from a US pharmacy. Compounding pharmacy can be hit or miss.
Ateam2023
Well-known Member
some people like test prop, Everyone's different,,,,
My go to compounds are actually Primo, Tren, boldenone. Anavar I have very little experience with during a cut, and I’ve tried it for only a few weeks on workout days during a bulk and noticed that it messed with my appetite. So no orals while bulking.
1.) I don’t notice the lack of dht, because I’ve gone as long as a year without it, by not having any test in my stack, and even when I’d randomly try adding in test again for a week or two, I noticed no difference by having dht again. I’ve even used injectable dht and dht cream. I don’t notice any effect from dht, other than it’s harder to get gyno symptoms when e2 levels are way too high. And for lack of e2 conversion it doesn’t matter because I’m manually backfilling it with the injectable estradiol. 1mg eod equals about 60pg/ml e2.. or 60pg/ml “additional” e2 added on top of whatever test or possibly hCG might be providing.
2.) yes I’ve heavily leveraged igf1lr3 actually, I feel it’s even more potent than gh, but can lose sensitivity over time. I’ve found tren even at a low dose, makes my igf1lr3 indeed keep working and feeling the obvious effect it has. This idea from which I got from vigorous Steve mentioning that he uses this technique with clients in the past and it working. For me I for sure felt the desensitizing effect to lr3, but while using Tren, I’ve found this doesn’t occur.
… Which brings me to addressing my typo. It was supposed to read, “ boldenone or primo, wish or without tren”. Of which tren hex is my favorite tren ester because enanthate seems to not work for me very well, it doesn’t produce a look like tren ace or tren hex, but with tren hex I get a longer ester than ace. I implement tren during a mass phase when I want to heavily get the effects I desire from igf1lr3, and use the tren more so as a tool to make the igf1lr3 more effective.
3,)When I pivot to cutting, I’ll implement winstrol of which I prefer sublingual dosing of raw powder or winstrol suspension injectable, swallowing it doesn’t seem to give the same effect. But I think in the future DHB will replace this or maybe be used in combination. I’ve never experienced as much of a cosmetic enhancement as I have with DHB
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