HGH + Insulin timing?

[Intrepid]

If you monitor your BG report back if it does change anything, very interested in it as well.

I'm doing bolus before workout on days ON and before bed on days OFF

Will do brother

 

[Sampei]

How many hours before the first working set do you take the GH? I presume you would want the GH peak to happen towards the end of the workout?

Also, consider the following:

"[Even] very-low-dose GH exposure evokes acute insulin resistance that subsides after 5 h. This time-dependent reversibility should be considered when assessing the impact of GH on glucose homeostasis."

Growth Hormone (GH)-Induced Insulin Resistance Is Rapidly Reversible: An Experimental Study in GH-Deficient Adults

AbstractContext:. It is clinically relevant and of physiological interest to investigate whether GH-induced insulin resistance depends on the timing of GH

academic.oup.com

So wouldn't pre/intra workout insulin be much less effective if at the same time GH is elevated?

depends, I can still drop my BG to 70 with 10IU hgh and 10IU of novorapid so probably it does increase insulin resistance but not that much (unless you already very insulin resistant?)

 

[Intrepid]

How many hours before the first working set do you take the GH? I presume you would want the GH peak to happen towards the end of the workout?

Also, consider the following:

"[Even] very-low-dose GH exposure evokes acute insulin resistance that subsides after 5 h. This time-dependent reversibility should be considered when assessing the impact of GH on glucose homeostasis."

Growth Hormone (GH)-Induced Insulin Resistance Is Rapidly Reversible: An Experimental Study in GH-Deficient Adults

AbstractContext:. It is clinically relevant and of physiological interest to investigate whether GH-induced insulin resistance depends on the timing of GH

academic.oup.com

So wouldn't pre/intra workout insulin be much less effective if at the same time GH is elevated?

Yeah gh does elevate insulin resistance. You're right on that, and that's something i still wrestle with

Basically I look at milos protocol, and how he does things just to get an idea (I'm not following this exactly though, I'm not at this level nor is this a full time job for me) but I think it paints a good idea of how to incorporate insulin use.

Then for the gh It's a mix of experimentation (ive done the split dosing multiple times a day, the am/pm dosing split, the BOLO PM dosing) never really gave the BOLO pre workout dosing a chance though, and after seeing lukis post about it I figured why not give it a shot. If I like it, I'll keep doing it. If i feel it's ineffective, I'll probably go back to BOLO night time dosing.

Now having said that, I do think you want gh in the system with the insulin to minimize potential fat gain. The actual timing of it, I'm still playing with. Probably just splitting hairs, but I find this kind of stuff fun, plus I like trying it for myself rather than just taking someone's word for it.

If you hypothetically do your pre workout insulin (subq) and gh (subq) at the same time, the insulin should peak much quicker than the gh, so maybe that negates some of the gh insulin resistance mechanisms. Then post workout I'll just do the IM insulin for the reasons I listed above in trying to shorten the elimination life of nolvalin r

Not saying this is the best way, I'm still very much learning and adapting the processes myself, but this is my general train of thought at the moment

I've attached one of Milo's protocols below. Doesn't show when he does the gh, but shows basically everything else

 

[Sampei]

Yeah gh does elevate insulin resistance. You're right on that, and that's something i still wrestle with

Basically I look at milos protocol, and how he does things just to get an idea (I'm not following this exactly though, I'm not at this level nor is this a full time job for me) but I think it paints a good idea of how to incorporate insulin use.

Then for the gh It's a mix of experimentation (ive done the split dosing multiple times a day, the am/pm dosing split, the BOLO PM dosing) never really gave the BOLO pre workout dosing a chance though, and after seeing lukis post about it I figured why not give it a shot. If I like it, I'll keep doing it. If i feel it's ineffective, I'll probably go back to BOLO night time dosing.

Now having said that, I do think you want gh in the system with the insulin to minimize potential fat gain. The actual timing of it, I'm still playing with. Probably just splitting hairs, but I find this kind of stuff fun, plus I like trying it for myself rather than just taking someone's word for it.

If you hypothetically do your pre workout insulin (subq) and gh (subq) at the same time, the insulin should peak much quicker than the gh, so maybe that negates some of the gh insulin resistance mechanisms. Then post workout I'll just do the IM insulin for the reasons I listed above.

Not saying this is the best way, I'm still very much learning and adapting the processes myself, but this is my general train of thought at the moment

I've attached one of Milo's protocols below. Doesn't show when he does the gh, but shows basically everything else

dafuq that meal plan... but the rest has some logic I guess, I'm not an expert at all so I believe he knows a lot better how to eat and time shit.

there is no HGH tho on that milos plan... odd
maybe it's in the drug plan that is not posted in that email

 

[Intrepid]

dafuq that meal plan... but the rest has some logic I guess, I'm not an expert at all so I believe he knows a lot better how to eat and time shit.

there is no HGH tho on that milos plan... odd
maybe it's in the drug plan that is not posted in that email

Yeah let me see if I can find something else that includes the gh

His protocol seems intense af though. But he's good at building mass monsters so he's definitely doing something right

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

dafuq that meal plan... but the rest has some logic I guess, I'm not an expert at all so I believe he knows a lot better how to eat and time shit.

there is no HGH tho on that milos plan... odd
maybe it's in the drug plan that is not posted in that email

I mean he does have IGF-1 in there. Perhaps he doesn't run GH during the weeks that this insane insulin protocol is used, since you really need to maximize insulin sensitivity to squeeze all those carbs into the muscle tissue.

 

[Sampei]

Yeah let me see if I can find something else that includes the gh

His protocol seems intense af though. But he's good at building mass monsters so he's definitely doing something right

yeah you gotta have the genetic for that tho... I would just become a big ball of shit on that protocol xD

 

[Sampei]

I mean he does have IGF-1 in there. Perhaps he doesn't run GH during the weeks that this insane insulin protocol is used, since you really need to maximize insulin sensitivity to squeeze all those carbs into the muscle tissue.

naaaa there is GH in there imho

 

[Intrepid]

I mean he does have IGF-1 in there. Perhaps he doesn't run GH during the weeks that this insane insulin protocol is used, since you really need to maximize insulin sensitivity to squeeze all those carbs into the muscle tissue.

Agree with sampei. Gh is definitely in

You'd never run slin without the gh, especially with all that food

 

[Intrepid]

The igf1 post workout is interesting though. We don't really hear too much about IGF1 other than that it's cost ineffective and to just buy GH instead

But he only has them doing 50mcg post workout so it doesn't seem too cost ineffective? I've never used igf1 so I can't comment on it, but I am curious now

 

[Mayne]

Yea skeptical considering the entire insulin resistance thing I have ran 6 iu rhGH and 6 iu humalog pre and post workout, measured my glucose on 90g carbs while literally crashing sweating then came to 56 (more than once) which is close to hypoglycemia which lead me to increase my carbs to 120g reaching 78 really I think yet so long you start with optimal insulin sensitivity you absolutely will benefit tremendously running both together in my experience...

 

[egruberman]

We don't really hear too much about IGF1 other than that it's cost ineffective and to just buy GH instead

It's totally bro-science but I've heard that Increlex is amazing and also hella expensive.

Anyone use a CGM to titrate insulin and carbs?

Also, I'm wondering why anyone would use insulin pre-workout and risk going hypo? Great pumps and all, but does training performance increase? To me, it seems that if one is most interested in shuttling nutrients into the muscles, the ideal time for that would be post workout.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

It's totally bro-science but I've heard that Increlex is amazing and also hella expensive.

Anyone use a CGM to titrate insulin and carbs?

Also, I'm wondering why anyone would use insulin pre-workout and risk going hypo? Great pumps and all, but does training performance increase? To me, it seems that if one is most interested in shuttling nutrients into the muscles, the ideal time for that would be post workout.

Presumably, blood flow and therefore nutrient delivery to a target muscle is maximized while you maintain a pump in that muscle. More nutrient-rich blood in the target muscle means less of the nutrients in other tissues.

Also, having the increased nutrient delivery from Insulin during the workout may allow you to do more volume at higher resistance.

And don't forget about the potential for muscle growth from the maximized pump itself (the whole fascia-stretching theory lacks evidence, but who knows).

 

[Intrepid]

It's totally bro-science but I've heard that Increlex is amazing and also hella expensive.

Anyone use a CGM to titrate insulin and carbs?

Also, I'm wondering why anyone would use insulin pre-workout and risk going hypo? Great pumps and all, but does training performance increase? To me, it seems that if one is most interested in shuttling nutrients into the muscles, the ideal time for that would be post workout.

Looks like it's pharma grade IGF1? $62k for 10mg. Sheesh yeah that is steep.

I was thinking more along the lines of HPLC tested UGL IGF1 that would be a fraction of the price.No way I'm dishing out $62k for igf1

Pre workout slin does help with performance, recovery, pumps and muscle building.

If done right the chances of going hypo are very slim, and even then you should have glucose tabs or some kind of sugar just incase.

But basically you'd have carbs pre workout, then you'd have carbs intra workout, so it'll offset the glucose drop from the slin if you start at around 20g carbs/iu of insulin, then you could always taper your carbs/iu ratio down if needed, but 20 is a good starting point, especially if you have high insulin sensitivity (low insulin resistance). As insulin resistance mounts, you'll need less carbs/iu because the insulin becomes less effective as insulin resistance increases.

The only way I see you really going hypo is if you don't eat pre workout, and try to get your carbs in during your workout, or if you start your ratio too low at like 10g carbs/iu

Nolvalin r is also more forgiving on glucose management where the faster more rapid acting insulins hit faster and harder, so just plan accordingly.

 

[29trt]

Wonder what was the weight of the individual doing that plan.....
also twice a day training...meanwhile top Olympians seem to be doing ONCE a week per body part... Makes me think anything works when you are a myostatin deficient speciment of a man )

 

[Mayne]

Yea so your information is pretty wrong Ronnie trained PPL, recently heard Hadi trains twice daily, Roman trains twice daily yet since years, Kai, Jay many examples really popular

 

[egruberman]

Looks like it's pharma grade IGF1? $62k for 10mg. Sheesh yeah that is steep.

I was thinking more along the lines of HPLC tested UGL IGF1 that would be a fraction of the price.No way I'm dishing out $62k for igf1

I've read, anecdotally, that Increlex is tremendously effective and yeah, expensive as hell. I've also read that UGL IGF1 is pointless.

 

[29trt]

Yea so your information is pretty wrong Ronnie trained PPL, recently heard Hadi trains twice daily, Roman trains twice daily yet since years, Kai, Jay many examples really popular

i did not say ALL guys ..that is the point some do some don't....
And the PPL is misleading.... Derek said the same thing PPL....and than he elaborates and he does Chest, back , legs...day off.... Shoulders, Arms and legs or something like that....
Thats not exactly twice per week for each body part is it? Nevermind twice per day....

And where did you get HADI does twice per day? Did you see his back workout?? No way is that volume sustainable for multiple times per week...and at that intensity....

I REALLY don't know what these guys are doing...I mean from Ronnie's old movies you would think thats what he trains like...but he said it himself that was for the cameras... He would break in half (yeah ,yeah) if he did deadlifts and squats like that every time ...