How important is protein

[Demondosage]

I used to put all my eggs in the protein basket but once I started focusing on hit my carb intake of 300g per day is when for the first time in my life I started seeing serious gains in strength and size. I'm now of the mindset that, at least for me, carbs are the most important part of my caloric intake for size and strength gains.

Yep, truth!

 

[Cdave.aol]

In most bodybuilding diets nowadays, the protien intake is higher than 1 gram per lb because it's being used as a gap filler. What I mean by a gap filler, is an amount that helps boost the cals up so ppl don't fall too far below-500 cals BMR and makes the diet more manageable to stick to when trying to drop fat.

NOW, in terms of building muscle. I could take 2 individuals and cut one of their protein intakes in half but double the carb intake, and the other one could double his protien intake but cut his carb intake, and I can tell you the one that will be bigger and stronger and it ain't the guy skimping on carbs and loading on protien.

Are carbs really that important for performance and body composition? Would cutting with a keto diet be counterproductive even though my goal would just be fat loss?

 

[Cdave.aol]

Higher fats destroy my waistline,i feel bloated all day...and with carbs even at 1000g my waistline is perfect and i feel great. And big plus I stay lean year Round without even trying

Don’t carbs store more water than fat? Shouldn’t it be the other way around where less carbs means more dryness?

 

[Demondosage]

Are carbs really that important for performance and body composition? Would cutting with a keto diet be counterproductive even though my goal would just be fat loss?

In my opinion...yes

 

[Cdave.aol]

In my opinion...yes

Gotchtya

 

[MFAAS]

Are carbs really that important for performance and body composition? Would cutting with a keto diet be counterproductive even though my goal would just be fat loss?

Don't cut on keto. It is definitely counterproductive and will be much harder.

1. Keto almost always fucks up people's lipid values. It raises cholesterol
2. Fats are less satiating/filling than carbs. They are more dense, so you will be more hungry more often.
3. Fats do NOT provide the energy needed for lifting. Keto is fine for endurance/ultra-endurance, but it is for sure counterproductive to lifting/bodybuilding. Just don't do it.
4. Fast do not fill your muscles with glycogen, giving you a "deflated" look that is not flattering at all.

I am sure there's more too, but that's all that comes to mind offhand.

There is nothing magic about keto. A calorie deficit is a calorie deficit. The reason it seems to work so well for obese people is primarily because they are addicted to carbs. Once they cut out carbs, they can't eat fast food, they can't eat donuts or candy or anything like that.

The classic bodybuilding diet is very high in carbs and protein and the bare minimum fat you need to be healthy.

 

[Flathead Fred]

Don’t carbs store more water than fat? Shouldn’t it be the other way around where less carbs means more dryness?

Yes, carboHYDRATE. I eat a low carb diet about 5 days a week and weekends I add carbs in, on those 2 refeed days I gain 10-12 lbs, water of course and the following Monday when I go back to a low carb diet I am dumping fluids like an old Harley. So yes carbs store water.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Since when does this convo have to be carbs vs protein…

1. In the diet you START a bulk with make sure you’re at acceptable fat levels (60+ IMO) and hitting 1.5-2g/lb protein.
2. As you bulk, add carbs.

Incredibly simple and effective.

My bulks go from ~375/300/70 to ~400/900/100 (protein and fat increases from trace in carb sources). I don’t have to trade protein or carbs. Most of this forum won’t hit 900g carbs. But you don’t need to. I find it, in place of a study well never get, counterintuitive to believe that we’re putting on anywhere from 5-10x the muscle in any given time period compared to nattys but that we should abide by their dietary guidelines for growth. Muscle may be mostly fluid, like any tissue, but without the raw lean tissue to store it, that’s temporary. Insulin may be anabolic, but why wouldn’t you make sure theres excess building blocks (essential aminos) for insulin to shuttle while using gear?

I all but guarantee that if you eat 350/600 carbs/protein vs 250/700 you WILL GROW FASTER and look better in the mirror.

 

[Bumpygooch]

I don’t understand shitting all over keto, I cut with it successfully many times. The best diet is the one to which you can adhere. For our purposes, I used a CKD diet. My performance never suffered. I think there’s a lot of keto ignorance here. They’re defaulting to therapeutic keto, which is high fat. That’s dogshit for training. High protein keto or nutritional keto is what is used in this context. High fat keto is for epileptics. High protein keto with CKD, I would eat 300g protein and about 100-125g fat. Then you introduce refeed days, or glycogen supercompensation where I’ve eaten up to 1000g carbs in a day in deficit. Something to think about.

 

[Bumpygooch]

Since when does this convo have to be carbs vs protein…

1. In the diet you START a bulk with make sure you’re at acceptable fat levels (60+ IMO) and hitting 1.5-2g/lb protein.
2. As you bulk, add carbs.

Incredibly simple and effective.

My bulks go from ~375/300/70 to ~400/900/100 (protein and fat increases from trace in carb sources). I don’t have to trade protein or carbs. Most of this forum won’t hit 900g carbs. But you don’t need to. I find it, in place of a study well never get, counterintuitive to believe that we’re putting on anywhere from 5-10x the muscle in any given time period compared to nattys but that we should abide by their dietary guidelines for growth. Muscle may be mostly fluid, like any tissue, but without the raw lean tissue to store it, that’s temporary. Insulin may be anabolic, but why wouldn’t you make sure theres excess building blocks (essential aminos) for insulin to shuttle while using gear?

I all but guarantee that if you eat 350/600 carbs/protein vs 250/700 you WILL GROW FASTER and look better in the mirror.

I’ve pounded the higher protein drum for months. Tribe mentality of 1g/lb and any more isn’t effective echo chamber always drowns the argument. @malfeasance posted a bunch of studies in a similar thread showing body recomp going over cals(with lean protein) in a deficit. I’ll see if I can go dig them up.

 

[Cdave.aol]

Since when does this convo have to be carbs vs protein…

1. In the diet you START a bulk with make sure you’re at acceptable fat levels (60+ IMO) and hitting 1.5-2g/lb protein.
2. As you bulk, add carbs.

Incredibly simple and effective.

My bulks go from ~375/300/70 to ~400/900/100 (protein and fat increases from trace in carb sources). I don’t have to trade protein or carbs. Most of this forum won’t hit 900g carbs. But you don’t need to. I find it, in place of a study well never get, counterintuitive to believe that we’re putting on anywhere from 5-10x the muscle in any given time period compared to nattys but that we should abide by their dietary guidelines for growth. Muscle may be mostly fluid, like any tissue, but without the raw lean tissue to store it, that’s temporary. Insulin may be anabolic, but why wouldn’t you make sure theres excess building blocks (essential aminos) for insulin to shuttle while using gear?

I all but guarantee that if you eat 350/600 carbs/protein vs 250/700 you WILL GROW FASTER and look better in the mirror.

Would going low carb high protein throughout the week with two days of high carb be acceptable?

 

[Cdave.aol]

Don't cut on keto. It is definitely counterproductive and will be much harder.

1. Keto almost always fucks up people's lipid values. It raises cholesterol
2. Fats are less satiating/filling than carbs. They are more dense, so you will be more hungry more often.
3. Fats do NOT provide the energy needed for lifting. Keto is fine for endurance/ultra-endurance, but it is for sure counterproductive to lifting/bodybuilding. Just don't do it.
4. Fast do not fill your muscles with glycogen, giving you a "deflated" look that is not flattering at all.

I am sure there's more too, but that's all that comes to mind offhand.

There is nothing magic about keto. A calorie deficit is a calorie deficit. The reason it seems to work so well for obese people is primarily because they are addicted to carbs. Once they cut out carbs, they can't eat fast food, they can't eat donuts or candy or anything like that.

The classic bodybuilding diet is very high in carbs and protein and the bare minimum fat you need to be healthy.

Correct me if I’m wrong but aren’t carbs the least satiating macro with protein/fats being the most satiating?

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Would going low carb high protein throughout the week with two days of high carb be acceptable?

Carb cycling is a great approach. But I wouldn’t call it “low carb.”

For instance, my current days (beginning of my rebound) are roughly
High: 350/500/60
Normal: 375/300/70
Off: 400/200/80

Certainly you could more drastically vary the total cals per day. But I don’t think “low carb” is a good solution for any period of growth. Dieting, yea. Absolutely a valid approach.

 

[malfeasance]

Wow, I hope you guys are reading posts 68 and 73.

Mac11wildcat knows what he is talking about. Heed him. Great macros for a bulk.


And, lol, I hit 900 on my recent trip to 251 pounds. I was never below 600.

 

[Bumpygooch]

Wow, I hope you guys are reading posts 68 and 73.

Mac11wildcat knows what he is talking about. Heed him. Great macros for a bulk.


And, lol, I hit 900 on my recent trip to 251 pounds. I was never below 600.

For my edification, the “900” and “600” numbers are carbs? The numbers thrown about without qualification are a little ambiguous.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

For my edification, the “900” and “600” numbers are carbs? The numbers thrown about without qualification are a little ambiguous.

P/C/F for macros is standard

 

[Bumpygooch]

P/C/F for macros is standard

Yours I understood, sir. I was a bit askew on the random 900 and 600, although, I assumed the 900 wasn’t protein, as I’ve eclipsed 600 protein a day for a stretch and it was uncomfortable, to say the least.

 

[Demondosage]

Carbs work hand in hand with water to fuel the muscles. Muscle is 75% water. It makes no sense to me to take away the volume when in reality you can cut up just fine on a calorie deficit. If more ppl would lower fat intake before always looking at carbs they would be awfully shocked at how good they can look while still eating a moderate amt of carbs

 

[Cdave.aol]

Carb cycling is a great approach. But I wouldn’t call it “low carb.”

For instance, my current days (beginning of my rebound) are roughly
High: 350/500/60
Normal: 375/300/70
Off: 400/200/80

Certainly you could more drastically vary the total cals per day. But I don’t think “low carb” is a good solution for any period of growth. Dieting, yea. Absolutely a valid approach.

Thanks. I have been running low carbs and high fats but I’m definitely not getting a good amount of protein. Makes sense as to why my physique seems to have regressed even when in a deficit.

Another question I have would be whether someone on AAS would still suffer in progress if protein intake is too low. Can a guy on tren get away with eating their maintenance with just candy bars? ( I’ve never taken tren and don’t plan on doing this btw)

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Thanks. I have been running low carbs and high fats but I’m definitely not getting a good amount of protein. Makes sense as to why my physique seems to have regressed even when in a deficit.

Another question I have would be whether someone on AAS would still suffer in progress if protein intake is too low. Can a guy on tren get away with eating their maintenance with just candy bars? ( I’ve never taken tren and don’t plan on doing this btw)

AAS can only do so much. There’s some baseline, modified by AAS at which you’ll lose tissue. Whether that’s muscle or fat depends on a lot of things. Your body is constantly tearing down and building tissue. It isn’t really on and off; it’s like a slider.

tren especially will help maintain muscle where you may normally lose it in a steep deficit. But tren can’t turn sugar into amino acids.