Karius - ALP / BAL Lists -

[johnnyBALLZ]

Actually you stated back then in your post that you had not notified K yet because you needed time to cool down first. K then actually responded the same day in the thread and was asking for the labmax pics and more information and seemed willing to resolve. However, things quickly spun out of control and everyone tones changed. Like I mentioned before; you come from past experiences where the majority of sources are scammers and you have very little trust/faith in sources in general based on these experiences(and I agree, most are trash). So you were pissed and rightfully so and things got heated before both you and Karius were able to sit down and talk through things. I think had you contacted K first and got things out in the open before posting it here then things would have turned out very different once you posted it here and a lot of that anger and hostility would have not have surfaced on all parts.

I'm pretty sure brutus said that.. That Sunday morning when someone bumped this thread and brutus posted I emailed K..

 

[muscle96ss]

Hopefully he's already taken steps behind the scenes to figure out what happened but the way he seemed to not give this a second thought until regular stepped in weeks later leads me to believe otherwise..

He actually is looking into how and what it would take to buy a mass spec so he can test everything himself. That is quite an undertaking and not something someone would do if they didn't give a shit.

 

[muscle96ss]

I'm pretty sure brutus said that.. That Sunday morning when someone bumped this thread and brutus posted I emailed K right away..

You are correct, I keep getting you 2 confused; not sure how.

 

[Millard]

Something happens and you believe that the products you have are bunk and you feel that you have significant proof. Before jumping out to the world and saying, "Hey I got bunk shit from K and he is just like the rest of those other sources peddling krapp" and other disparaging remarks; why don't you first contact K and say here is what has happened and here is my proof so please give me your side of the story. In other words, get the facts from his end and get his point of view before you rush to judgement. Once you have the full facts and both parties are now involved in dialogue then go ahead and post away about your experience and the facts of what has transpired from both ends.

There are two issues here: One is whether or not it is appropriate to post evidence (regardless of quality) about a source's products prior to contacting the source. The other is making broad conclusions based on limited evidence.

As far as the first issue is concerned...

I and many others here see nothing wrong with publicly posting evidence first. The evidence can stand on its own merit. It doesn't need to be proofed by a source or anyone else. Could this unfairly tarnish a source with a stellar reputation? Possibly.

OTOH, traditional "etiquette" involves withholding evidence from the community for an indefinite amount of time while a source "resolves" the issue. Could this unfairly put the community at risk of harm? Possibly.

Both scenarios have potentially undesirable consequences. Neither is ideal. Which is worse? It depends on whether you take the perspective of the consumer or the vendor.

I think the best compromise is to alert all parties to the evidence in question at the same time. Post the evidence publicly to alert the community. Contact the source so that he will immediately have knowledge of the issue and have an opportunity to address and respond. Allow the dialogue to proceed openly and transparently for all to see.

This isn't unlike what happened in this situation. It is clear that the source was informed of the labmax evidence within seven hours of it being publicly posted. All sides have been represented.

Regarding the second issue...

It's not necessarily a choice between the polar extremes of the source being a swell guy who can do no wrong versus the source being a POS scammer purposefully screwing customers.

How do we evaluate evidence? What can be concluded from limited evidence? Can the results be replicated? Etc. Etc.

I am honestly surprised there is such resistance at the idea of publicly posting adverse products results prior to contacting the vendor or at the same time that contact is made with the vendor.

I would have expected that the "controversy" and "criticism" would take aim at the second issue and justly so: how should such evidence be evaluated and what conclusions can be drawn.

 

[johnnyBALLZ]

He actually is looking into how and what it would take to buy a mass spec so he can test everything himself. That is quite an undertaking and not something someone would do if they didn't give a shit.

Yea I recently saw something in his AB thread about that, I'll have to go back and read it again later.. Took 6.5 weeks and another complaint on OLM for him to want to look into it though.. Good, I hope he does.. I don't think it's as simple as just buying the equipment though..

 

[Mr.Bravo]

You know how to run around and shit everywhere- give yourself some credit.

Listening to you (or me) talk about how people should act on a forum is like going to a real estate seminar with a keynote speaker who is homeless. Nobody cares what you or I have to say about proper behavior on a forum because our inability to remain constructive and professional say everything. Setting a poor example and then admonishing the founder for giving us the platform to do so? Seriously?

I have enough self awareness to know I am a pretty big part of the problem... yet when money, gear, my integrity, etc are all being fucked with I just don't really care. That attitude? The height of immaturity and a prime example of a complete lack of accountability. Can I rationalize my behavior? Absolutely. Is that an excuse? Absolutely not.

I am embarrassed to have acted the way I have over the last couple weeks. Did I mean what I said? Most of it, but allowing another person or persons to have enough emotional influence over me to "force" me in to futile, ineffective verbal conflict is no longer something I will let happen with a sense of entitlement. Nobody "deserves" anything- especially the latitude to insult the "innocent bystander" just to get a rise out of the target.

This is hardly a concession to the other parties that I am wrong, or I want to make up and be friends- this is that I can choose to hate a motherfucker and be quiet about it. Life goes on. I am running mass specs in the compounds in question and the results will be posted even if they make me look like an idiot. C'est la' vie (hope I spelled that right in my attempt to end on a bilingual note.)

Hey stay down brother well said and much respect no matter which way the ms comes back.

 

[muscle96ss]

There are two issues here: One is whether or not it is appropriate to post evidence (regardless of quality) about a source's products prior to contacting the source. The other is making broad conclusions based on limited evidence.

As far as the first issue is concerned...

I and many others here see nothing wrong with publicly posting evidence first. The evidence can stand on its own merit. It doesn't need to be proofed by a source or anyone else. Could this unfairly tarnish a source with a stellar reputation? Possibly.

OTOH, traditional "etiquette" involves withholding evidence from the community for an indefinite amount of time while a source "resolves" the issue. Could this unfairly put the community at risk of harm? Possibly.

Both scenarios have potentially undesirable consequences. Neither is ideal. Which is worse? It depends on whether you take the perspective of the consumer or the vendor.

I think the best compromise is to alert all parties to the evidence in question at the same. Post the evidence publicly to alert the community. Contact the source so that he will immediately have knowledge of the issue and have an opportunity to address and respond. Allow the dialogue to proceed openly and transparently for all to see.

This isn't unlike what happened in this situation. It is clear that the source was informed of the labmax evidence within seven hours of it being publicly posted. All sides have been represented.

Regarding the second issue...

It's not necessarily a choice between the polar extremes of the source being a swell guy who can do no wrong versus the source being a POS scammer purposefully screwing customers.

How do we evaluate evidence? What can be concluded from limited evidence? Can the results be replicated? Etc. Etc.

I am honestly surprised there is such resistance at the idea of publicly posting adverse products results prior to contacting the vendor or at the same time that contact is made with the vendor.

I would have expected that the "controversy" and "criticism" would take aim at the second issue and justly so: how should such evidence be evaluated and what conclusions can be drawn.

I guess the way I look at it is if someone had a problem with me, whether it be something I said, something I did, or whatever; I would expect them to come to me first and discuss it with me and hear my side of the story before they go telling the world about me and portraying me as a bad guy. Then they can tell anybody they want as long as they are truthful of the facts and I am ok with that. But I don't want to be hearing second hand information that I did this or I did tha. To me that is just disrepectful and I am going to have a much different reaction then had they come to me first. Its a matter of respect and etiquette.

 

[Marcus]

I guess the way I look at it is if someone had a problem with me, whether it be something I said, something I did, or whatever; I would expect them to come to me first and discuss it with me and hear my side of the story before they go telling the world about me and portraying me as a bad guy. Then they can tell anybody they want as long as they are truthful of the facts and I am ok with that. But I don't want to be hearing second hand information that I did this or I did tha. To me that is just disrepectful and I am going to have a much different reaction then had they come to me first. Its a matter of respect and etiquette.

But what you have to realize in a case like this where people are putting a substance in to their body that could potentially be harmful, the same rules would not apply. While I do agree with you, where if I had a problem with you, Mr. Bravo, I would take it up with you, but you are not sourcing openly and publicly not speaking in those terms with this analogy, correct.

I don't believe the intent was solely to bash K's name but rather bring awareness to an issue at hand.

 

[brutus79]

I guess the way I look at it is if someone had a problem with me, whether it be something I said, something I did, or whatever; I would expect them to come to me first and discuss it with me and hear my side of the story before they go telling the world about me and portraying me as a bad guy. Then they can tell anybody they want as long as they are truthful of the facts and I am ok with that. But I don't want to be hearing second hand information that I did this or I did tha. To me that is just disrepectful and I am going to have a much different reaction then had they come to me first. Its a matter of respect and etiquette.

Now you are trying to compare business and personal. One has nothing to do with the other.

 

[johnnyBALLZ]

I guess the way I look at it is if someone had a problem with me, whether it be something I said, something I did, or whatever; I would expect them to come to me first and discuss it with me and hear my side of the story before they go telling the world about me and portraying me as a bad guy. Then they can tell anybody they want as long as they are truthful of the facts and I am ok with that. But I don't want to be hearing second hand information that I did this or I did tha. To me that is just disrepectful and I am going to have a much different reaction then had they come to me first. Its a matter of respect and etiquette.

If I knew K or had a long history of great previous transactions maybe.. This is buying AAS anonymously over the freaking internet!! I'm not dealing with Joe the friendly neighborhood mechanic that I've known forever here..

 

[Millard]

I guess the way I look at it is if someone had a problem with me, whether it be something I said, something I did, or whatever; I would expect them to come to me first and discuss it with me and hear my side of the story before they go telling the world about me and portraying me as a bad guy. Then they can tell anybody they want as long as they are truthful of the facts and I am ok with that. But I don't want to be hearing second hand information that I did this or I did tha. To me that is just disrepectful and I am going to have a much different reaction then had they come to me first. Its a matter of respect and etiquette.

I agree with you at least on a personal level. I don't think the same rules necessarily apply to commercial entities and/or public figures.

I wish that anyone who had anything negative to say about MESO would just send a private message rather than post it on various forums scattered around the internet. This "etiquette" would certainly be convenient and allow greater control and management of PR. I know it would benefit MESO. But is it a reasonable expectation?

 

[muscle96ss]

Now you are trying to compare business and personal. One has nothing to do with the other.

Business or personal it all really depends on your intentions and what you hope to accomplish. If you had gone to K prior and said look this is what happened, here is my evidence, what can we do to resolve and I plan on going to Meso and posting what has happened thus far in case somebody else is in a similar position or others are thinking of purchasing these items; then I think he would have either refunded your money or reshipped your order as well as paid for getting the items tested somewhere if that could be arranged. In addition, I think then the tone of this whole thread would have been very different and you guys would have been on the same team working together. In the end both parties would be satisfied. Now with the way you did handle it, what has been accomplished and wouldn't you rather it have ended in the first scenario I presented? In both cases the information would have been posted and people would know what was going on and it would have only been a 1 day delay by giving K a chance to respond or be informed of what you are doind. You had already been in possession and suspected things were wrong for a few months you said, so what would one more day be? I think you just got very excited/angry and jumped the gun based on prior experiences and didn't really expect that if you presented it the way I suggested in the first scenario that you would get the response I am suggesting you would have gotten; and many times you would be right. But you don't really know until you try. I am not trying to censor you or say you are wrong necessarily for doing what you did; just that you are wrong if you wanted a win-win situation as the approach used will not lead to that type of solution.

 

[ItalianMuscle27]

I wish that anyone who had anything negative to say about MESO would just send a private message rather than post it on various forums scattered around the internet. This "etiquette" would certainly be convenient and allow greater control and management of PR. I know it would benefit MESO. But is it a reasonable expectation?

So now you want to censor what other people are thinking or have on their minds about meso or other forums, and you propose they keep it to PMs or maybe emails? LOL.. You cant have it both ways.

Every forum has their good/bad sides and good/bad members. You want to run an uncensored forum, so be it. Dont be pissed off or mad because someone is talking bad about meso. Dont members have a right to voice their opinion? Or do certain rules apply to certain people? You let members get away with alot here.. more then most forums. If any of this bullshit would have happened anywhere else, all parties involved would have been banned by now. The subtle threats and racism shouldnt be tolerated anywhere.. And you let that stuff slide. Why? I have no idea..

 

[Big_paul]

This entire scene is on k. It was his choice to come here. It was a decision he must have consided it posting his service here.
Stay private next time.

 

[brutus79]

Business or personal it all really depends on your intentions and what you hope to accomplish. If you had gone to K prior and said look this is what happened, here is my evidence, what can we do to resolve and I plan on going to Meso and posting what has happened thus far in case somebody else is in a similar position or others are thinking of purchasing these items; then I think he would have either refunded your money or reshipped your order as well as paid for getting the items tested somewhere if that could be arranged. In addition, I think then the tone of this whole thread would have been very different and you guys would have been on the same team working together. In the end both parties would be satisfied. Now with the way you did handle it, what has been accomplished and wouldn't you rather it have ended in the first scenario I presented? In both cases the information would have been posted and people would know what was going on and it would have only been a 1 day delay by giving K a chance to respond or be informed of what you are doind. You had already been in possession and suspected things were wrong for a few months you said, so what would one more day be? I think you just got very excited/angry and jumped the gun based on prior experiences and didn't really expect that if you presented it the way I suggested in the first scenario that you would get the response I am suggesting you would have gotten; and many times you would be right. But you don't really know until you try. I am not trying to censor you or say you are wrong necessarily for doing what you did; just that you are wrong if you wanted a win-win situation as the approach used will not lead to that type of solution.

Or- now karius is testing more and looking to buy a mass spec... can you thank me for that? Maybe orals have been better as of late. Thanks Brutus?

I am just being facetious. .. I respect you muscle 96. All I am pointing out is things did get accomplished... just not necessarily best case scenario for everyone. Then again- there is no such thing.

 

[Millard]

So now you want to censor what other people are thinking or have on their minds about meso or other forums, and you propose they keep it to PMs or maybe emails? LOL.. You cant have it both ways.

Every forum has their good/bad sides and good/bad members. You want to run an uncensored forum, so be it. Dont be pissed off or mad because someone is talking bad about meso. Dont members have a right to voice their opinion?

You need to re-read and understand the context of the statement you quoted. It has nothing to do with advocating censorship on this forum or any other forum. It was actually in support of the opposite - the freedom to post criticism on this forum and other forums. Maybe someone else will explain it to you.

 

[ItalianMuscle27]

Yes, millard has pm'd me and asked me to tone it down.

No, homosexual is not a race. It is a sexual orientation.

You have said many times you are the only vet and all the members you just mentioned are just peons- shouldn't the vet set the example, especially when he is brimming with self imporatance like you?

Yes, we contribute in other ways than trolling the forum- you do not.

Why is he posting about you specifically? Well let me break it down for you- you are the only one slandering the forum, the way it operates and the entire foundation of what it stands for. He was answering you. Was that not obvious?

So if Milliard sent you a PM and asked you to tone it down, obviously you didnt listen, and pretty much just spit in his face and disrespected him and Meso, correct?

Homosexual is not a race, but calling someone a faggot is. You've done that a few times here. Racism shouldnt be tolerated anywhere.. So how about setting an example?

At the end of the day, I could give two shits about vet or vip status. You think that means something in the real world? I dont need to set any type of example to you or anyone. I know the good Ive done for the community, and so do many, many others. Just ask around at AB, TID, WCBB, JM, or Outlaw. You may think Im full of shit, and thats fine. Been around for over 10+ years, and I am easily recognized by many. Do I have my enemies? Sure. But I speak my mind, and yeah its gotten me banned at many places. Every single time I do something good for the community, I get shit on right back for it. Wether it be exposing a scammer, or posting up Mass Spec results that I paid for out of my own pocket. I have no reason to lie about any of it. Believe my findings, I dont give a fuck. I know deep down, I did the right thing. And at the end of the day, Ill sleep well, as I always do.

 

[Big_paul]

If Millard sent me a pm and ask me to tone it done, I would cosuder my contribution to this board

You are my bros but you have raised the level of this conversation the point in which the only satisfaction I would have would be an effective drive by or car bomb.
Take this childish argument private.

 

[ItalianMuscle27]

Wait, wait, wait...the personal attacks begin when you accuse me of being a liar and you feel you need protection against accusations and lies? Do you read this stuff that you post? You were vicously attacking me as a liar on the source's behalf and feel being vicously attacked in return was unjust? Wow.

Tell me because I have always wondered- is ignorance bliss?

I hurt little brutus' feelings calling him a liar out in the open..wah wah.
You provided very little evidence, and even those labmax tests were questionable. How much crushed milligram powder was used in each vial? Did you video record your findings? NO! You posted pics.. Pics can mean 100s of different things, and everyone can interpret them different. I have no problem with you or anyone questioning a labs products, but there is a right way and a wrong way to go about it. Do I believe you could have received a bunk oral batch? Sure.. But 5? You know how unrealistic and fishy that sounds?
I guess the mass spec that you've been promising will tell the real tale. Wether they are believable or not is another story..Just so you know, anything you post is probably going to get ridiculed, bashed, etc. Just like my mass spec test on Strango Primo 200

If you would have went to ALP the right way, he probably would have paid for everything, gave you a refund(if you havent gotten one back already), or gave you new stuff. Thats just how the guy operates. He has been around longer then me, and probably everyone on this forum. And yeah, he is one guy that rarely gets complaints. Cant say that about too many others..

If you want to keep insulting me, fine. I guess it takes a bigger man to step down, and not say anything anymore, then deal with your childish remarks day in and day out.
And you talk about setting an example? Aint that a hoot.. Im sure your daughter would be proud of you..

 

[ItalianMuscle27]

You need to re-read and understand the context of the statement you quoted. It has nothing to do with advocating censorship on this forum or any other forum. It was actually in support of the opposite - the freedom to post criticism on this forum and other forums. Maybe someone else will explain it to you.

Sure it was. I know what you said and what you meant, and it was exactly in my comment towards you. Maybe you need to re-read my quote, or better yet have someone read it back to you..