Kryptocur: Completely prevent HPG suppression?

[zkt]

Scally, if you've got something to say, then just say it.

I have to second that request.

Are we here to inflate our egos, as some certainly do- wont mention names, or to teach and share what we have busted our asses to understand so that others will have a better time of it.

I used to be a satellite tv hacking guru.
One night I had 38,000 page views to a single post concerning how to code for the latest ECM on the Hu card.
My screen name, zkt, is an acrynym of a security algormthm - the Zero Knowledge Test.
I used to tell guys to read, read till your eyes bleed. Then maybe I would parse out a tidbit of info.
I was a big shot and held all the answers and used my readers to make me feel good about myself.
I dont mention this because I`m proud of it.

 

[Bill Roberts]

Estradiol is one of the factors that can be inhibitory of GnRH production, and androgens are a factor in the pituitary's GnRH sensitivity.

I wrote a post earlier today but somehow am not seeing it now... maybe it was one of those times that I wrote it but didn't click "Submit Reply" and then went on to other tabs or something. Hate when I do that.

Anyway the gist of it was that it is an interesting question as to whether known information makes it entirely implausible or contradicted that there could be any benefit to low-dose use of GnRH during a cycle, comparable let's say to what is the case with low-normal LH production when off-cycle. I haven't read a paper at any time that really looked at the question being asked here.

Even if the pieces seemed to hold together well in the light of all relevant research, it would certainly take experiment to see whether such a protocol was of any value with relation to following post-cycle recovery. If the GnRH usage is kept very moderate then I doubt there would be harm to trying: I wouldn't worry myself if I were going to do it myself.

 

[Structure]

Estradiol is one of the factors that can be inhibitory of GnRH production, and androgens are a factor in the pituitary's GnRH sensitivity.

I wrote a post earlier today but somehow am not seeing it now... maybe it was one of those times that I wrote it but didn't click "Submit Reply" and then went on to other tabs or something. Hate when I do that.

Anyway the gist of it was that it is an interesting question as to whether known information makes it entirely implausible or contradicted that there could be any benefit to low-dose use of GnRH during a cycle, comparable let's say to what is the case with low-normal LH production when off-cycle. I haven't read a paper at any time that really looked at the question being asked here.

Even if the pieces seemed to hold together well in the light of all relevant research, it would certainly take experiment to see whether such a protocol was of any value with relation to following post-cycle recovery. If the GnRH usage is kept very moderate then I doubt there would be harm to trying: I wouldn't worry myself if I were going to do it myself.

I agree that its just theory until its been tested. The guy at the WCBB forum that used Kryptocur (and posted about it a while back) knows some people that use Kryptocur. I'll relay his anecdotes when I find out how they've used it. From his posts a year ago, it looks like he's used it for PCT, but I don't know if he or any of his friends have used it on cycle.

When I first started looking into this, it looked sound in theory, which is what prompted me to post here to get some additional perspectives. I'm interested to see how it will pan out in practice.

The one point remaining to be resolved is the one regarding hypothalamic hypogonadism. As I mentioned above, it seems as though if hypothalamic hypogonadism is a problem when coming off of a cycle with Kryptocur, it would also be a problem on when coming off of a cycle without Kryptocur (see post 33). Likewise, if the hypothalamic GnRH pulse generator comes back online without much difficulty after a cycle, then I see no reason why the same wouldn't be true when coming off a cycle with Kryptocur.

Do you know of any data regarding the state of the GnRH pulse genrator after a cycle? I have only seen data regarding the pituitary and testes, but have not seen any data regarding GnRH deficiency after a cycle.

 

[Structure]

I agree that its just theory until its been tested. The guy at the WCBB forum that used Kryptocur (and posted about it a while back) knows some people that use Kryptocur. I'll relay his anecdotes when I find out how they've used it. From his posts a year ago, it looks like he's used it for PCT, but I don't know if he or any of his friends have used it on cycle.

When I first started looking into this, it looked sound in theory, which is what prompted me to post here to get some additional perspectives. I'm interested to see how it will pan out in practice.

The one point remaining to be resolved is the one regarding hypothalamic hypogonadism. As I mentioned above, it seems as though if hypothalamic hypogonadism is a problem when coming off of a cycle with Kryptocur, it would also be a problem on when coming off of a cycle without Kryptocur (see post 33). Likewise, if the hypothalamic GnRH pulse generator comes back online without much difficulty after a cycle, then I see no reason why the same wouldn't be true when coming off a cycle with Kryptocur.

Do you know of any data regarding the state of the GnRH pulse genrator after a cycle? I have only seen data regarding the pituitary and testes, but have not seen any data regarding GnRH deficiency after a cycle.

Here's the reason why you never hear about GnRH measurements in blood:

"Serum levels of gonadotropin-releasing hormone are difficult to obtain due to its short half-life (2-4 min) and complete confinement to the hypophyseal-portal blood supply." (from Medscape: Medscape Access)

The [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypophyseal_portal_system"]Hypophyseal portal system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Grays_pituitary.png" class="image"><img alt="Grays pituitary.png" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Grays_pituitary.png/250px-Grays_pituitary.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/0/09/Grays_pituitary.png/250px-Grays_pituitary.png[/ame] is the system of blood vessels that link the hypothalamus and the anterior pituitary in the brain.

It looks like direct measurement of GnRH is thus pretty difficult to come by --- not only is it gone in a matter of minutes, it doesn't enter general circulation. Thus, GnRH deficiency is not directly detected, but rather is diagnosed when the rest of the HPG axis is working fine (as demonstrated by a GnRH stimulation test, etc.), but a gonadotropin (LH, FSH) deficiency exists.

 

[Structure]

Here's the reason why you never hear about GnRH measurements in blood:

"Serum levels of gonadotropin-releasing hormone are difficult to obtain due to its short half-life (2-4 min) and complete confinement to the hypophyseal-portal blood supply." (from Medscape: Medscape Access)

The hypophyseal portal system is the system of blood vessels that link the hypothalamus and the anterior pituitary in the brain.

It looks like direct measurement of GnRH is thus pretty difficult to come by --- not only is it gone in a matter of minutes, it doesn't enter general circulation. Thus, GnRH deficiency is not directly detected, but rather is diagnosed when the rest of the HPG axis is working fine (as demonstrated by a GnRH stimulation test, etc.), but a gonadotropin (LH, FSH) deficiency exists.

Now that I think about it, this pretty much solves the mystery of why you never hear about GnRH deficiency (hypothalamic hypogonadism) in steroid users --- GnRH is too hard to measure directly, so you have to assess hypothalamic function indirectly. For example, if someone has hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, but responds normally to a GnRH stimulation test, and returns back to a hypogonadal state after the test, you have a pretty good reason to suspect the hypothalamus. However, chronic AAS use suppresses the pituitary, and thus the pituitary has a blunted response to a GnRH stimulation test after a cycle. Effectively, even if the hypothalamus was malfunctioning, detecting this would be masked by the malfunctioning pituitary gland.

For this reason, I don't think we're going to hear about tertiary hypogonadism resulting from steroid use any time soon.

 

[Bill Roberts]

The one point remaining to be resolved is the one regarding hypothalamic hypogonadism. As I mentioned above, it seems as though if hypothalamic hypogonadism is a problem when coming off of a cycle with Kryptocur, it would also be a problem on when coming off of a cycle without Kryptocur (see post 33). Likewise, if the hypothalamic GnRH pulse generator comes back online without much difficulty after a cycle, then I see no reason why the same wouldn't be true when coming off a cycle with Kryptocur.

Agreed, and this is why I expect there would be no harm to trying the drug at a low dose, one that would be comparable to GnRH stimulation commensurate with low-normal LH production. (Just what that specific amount of Krytpocur might be, I don't know.) There would most likely be nothing to be lost and there could be something to be gained.

As you say, it is problematic to determine what the hypothalamus is doing with GnRH production when the pituitary is not responsive.

 

[Structure]

Agreed, and this is why I expect there would be no harm to trying the drug at a low dose, one that would be comparable to GnRH stimulation commensurate with low-normal LH production. (Just what that specific amount of Krytpocur might be, I don't know.) There would most likely be nothing to be lost and there could be something to be gained.

As you say, it is problematic to determine what the hypothalamus is doing with GnRH production when the pituitary is not responsive.

Thanks for the feedback, Bill. I'll be sure to update if I find out anything relevant regarding real world experience with it.

 

[Bill Roberts]

That would be very interesting indeed; thanks!

 

[zkt]

Definately worth further study but appears to be rather expensive and difficult to procure.

 

[etul86]

why would you argue with the Doc?

 

[DastardlyDD]

Effects of HCG or gonadoreline on seminal paramete... [J Physiol Biochem. 1998] - PubMed result

"No direct plasma testosterone increasing levels owed to Gonadoreline injections were detected, probably due to the frequency of blood sampling (once a week)."

So, it`s only boosting Test for a couple of days ?

Later edit:
From a dutch site, gonadoreline has the following side effects: sensitive and enlarged breasts in men.

 

[Bill Roberts]

I would expect only a short-acting effect.

 

[DastardlyDD]

From The British Journal of Psychiatry 1999 175: 290-291, I cite the following:

"Psychosis is associated with gonadorelin agonist administration"

Found this study on male boars:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1320325/pdf/compmed00015-0061.pdf

A very nice read.

"LH achieves peak concentrations at 15 to 30 min after GnRH injection and returns to basal levels between 120 and 240 min posttreatment (4)."

Experiments have shown that continuous administration of GnRH results in the gonadotrophs of the pituitary becoming refractory to further stimulation and LH levels decline to lower concentrations
(10,18).

 

[DastardlyDD]

As I finally managed to open a new post. Very slow loading.

Other informations I have gathered.

http://www.uni-due.de/imperia/md/content/pharmakologie/hormone-tumortherapie.pdf7

Translate German in English and you will have an excellent read. It will show the feedback loops of several hormones.


As I dont have access to the full document (only some Universities of UK, not mine) I hope another user can post other parts of the file.

Arch Intern Med -- Excerpt: Gonadorelin and Erythropoiesis, February 1981, Hashimoto and Miyai 141 (2): 267

"We recently noted that the number of peripheral reticulocytes increased up to 42% after transnasal administration of 5 mg of gonadorelin acetate and gradually decreased to normal levels (10%) by the end of the next two weeks."

So the body adapts to it and renders it noneffective ?

Mice studies:

Method of using gonadorelin for the treatment of benign prostatic hyperplasia - Patent 4321260

Human female studies:

http://www.ukmi.nhs.uk/NewMaterial/html/docs/cetrorel.pdf

General informations:

http://www.imb.ie/images/uploaded/swedocuments/LicenseSPC_10815-004-001_27032010020320.pdf

 

[Bill Roberts]

GnRH has different ultimate effects according to whether it is used chronically at high dose, for a short time at high dose, or for a short time at either low or high dose

It is used chronically at high dose to abolish or nearly abolish LH production.

For a short time at high dose, it increases LH production greatly.

At low dose chronically, I would expect it to increase LH production somewhat. I'm not able to say that from a specific study -- that is just opinion from the mechanism.

 

[amar7]

Kryptocur sounds like it'd help maintain pituitary function during a steroid cycle, but wouldn't you still have the problem of getting the hypothalamus going again?
Won't Kryptocur suppress natural release of GnRH as part of HPT feedback loop?

That's the point , usually if the body gets any exogenous medicine, which is also there naturally, it inhibits the internal production. Haven't seen studys yet to test this, because this stuff is mostly used in children with undescended testes with a low success rate.

this I had in an opened tab:


as I am looking for a medical possibility to treat my fertility issue. Kryptocur as gonadorelin hcl taken in physiological levels and a pulsatile fashion, can be useful and i think it invases the axis to some degree for sure, but not as bad as HCG.

completely prevent supression while stimulating Leydig and Sertoli Cells? that would be great

 

[amar7]

@Admin: I think this thread should be in the health forum, because maintaining or restoring htpa is a health topic imho

 

[Structure]

That's the point , usually if the body gets any exogenous medicine, which is also there naturally, it inhibits the internal production. Haven't seen studys yet to test this, because this stuff is mostly used in children with undescended testes with a low success rate.

...I am looking for a medical possibility to treat my fertility issue. Kryptocur as gonadorelin hcl taken in physiological levels and a pulsatile fashion, can be useful and i think it invases the axis to some degree for sure, but not as bad as HCG.

completely prevent supression while stimulating Leydig and Sertoli Cells? that would be great

From what I've seen, the success rate regarding undescended testicles is better than other medications used for the same purpose. I've seen success rates as high as 70-80%, and as low as 50%; however other medications used in the studies don't usually perform as well.

 

[Structure]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, 6p6 over at World Class Bodybuilding Forum has had experience with Kryptocur. I recently wrote him to ask about his experience (see below). This is not intended to be proof that the product (or my theory) works; rather its an anecdotal account of one BBer's experience with the drug:

Here's my question for you: do you know anyone that's ever used it on cycle? If so, what was their experience?

I personally have tried the stuff. I ran it straight through until the bottle was done 2 sprays per nostril x 3 times per day. I never come off of test, always on at least a low dose HRT type regimine so I rely on hcg to keep plumbing working well. I would compare it to hcg but really it worked entirelly different. First the affects were noticed way faster and now it has been since several months and nothing has worn off. Remember this stuff is to help people, especially little boys, who haven't dropped a nut or both nuts so it is a little more "medicinal" than hcg.

I got this from a professional bodybuilder whose a very good friend. I'm not saying some lower end BBer I'm saying a top 20 olympian the past 15 years...so he knows his stuff. He gets his through Italy. He has no idea what it costs, its given to him.

One of the positives on this product is there is zero estrogen sides like hcg can cause. If you can get it and cost doesn't matter give it a try. It ISN'T EARTH SHATTERING by any means but I am very impressed with the product. I would easily switch to it over hcg if I could find a cheap enough supply.

You can read more about his experience here: http://www.worldclassbodybuilding.com/forums/f29/kryptocur-88243/ (Kryptocur - World Class Bodybuilding Forum)

 

[amar7]

I have read this experience report, still thank you for posting it for others here to spread the word, structure.

I also believe that GnRH is the new way to go on ill states of the testes aswell as PCT.
The thing that makes me confused is, that pulsatile use of kryptocur and gnrh is different.

Kryptocur is bein used 3times a day, which is convinient and GnRH is being used in pulses of every 90-120 min, so about 10 times by injection.

Both contain the Gonadorelin as far as I know and act the same. Can you explain that difference?