Liberals, truly the most delusional

[flenser]

That's definitely a consideration. Some of the metrics, such as lower 30-day mortality rates from heart attacks and strokes when compared to other member nations, potentially reflect a proficiency in treating obesity-related conditions.

But absolutely, fat people on average have more health issues and are harder to treat.

Hard to disagree with the poor health care performance in the US these days, though. Seems our mercantile system has found the least efficient point on the scale between pure free markets and pure socialism. Even most research is focused on more profitable treatments instead of cures or prevention.

 

[Test_Subject]

Seems our mercantile system has found the least efficient point on the scale between pure free markets and pure socialism. Even most research is focused on more profitable treatments instead of cures or prevention.

That's exactly the problem.

The issue is similar to that of the one caused by the student loan system: student loans have artificially increased the purchasing power of students, allowing schools to charge artificially high prices for tuition. Before readily-available student loans, schools could only charge what the market would bear or they'd have a bunch of empty seats in the classrooms. The quality of schooling hasn't changed all that much, but the costs have risen exponentially compared to earnings because you're essentially making students temporarily wealthy by paying their way as a loan. When it comes time to pay the loan back, their wages seldom reflect the burden of the loan.

In the same way, having the insurers pay healthcare-related costs on behalf of their clients has resulted in health care providers and equipment suppliers being able to charge artificially-inflated prices because they're charging a wealthy company (or the government) instead of a private citizen. These increased costs are, as is with any good or service, then passed on to the consumer -- in the case of the US that's both the government and the private citizen.

 

[Hughinn]

That's exactly the problem.

The issue is similar to that of the one caused by the student loan system: student loans have artificially increased the purchasing power of students, allowing schools to charge artificially high prices for tuition. Before readily-available student loans, schools could only charge what the market would bear or they'd have a bunch of empty seats in the classrooms. The quality of schooling hasn't changed all that much, but the costs have risen exponentially compared to earnings because you're essentially making students temporarily wealthy by paying their way as a loan. When it comes time to pay the loan back, their wages seldom reflect the burden of the loan.

In the same way, having the insurers pay healthcare-related costs on behalf of their clients has resulted in health care providers and equipment suppliers being able to charge artificially-inflated prices because they're charging a wealthy company (or the government) instead of a private citizen. These increased costs are, as is with any good or service, then passed on to the consumer -- in the case of the US that's both the government and the private citizen.

That is to say : government meddling in said markets has added to, in all cases, and caused in most, disproportionate and unnecessary suffering on behalf of the customers of those markets,, and inefficiency of service along with degradation of quality in those markets as a whole and even among providers themselves.

Who would've thought?

Then, it's almost like government interference in matters of immigration policy and labor affairs has had a similar effect on wages? Almost like, more government interference is a pretty stupid idea huh?

Nah. Who would think that? That'd be right wing propaganda according to most of the idiots on here who've been lecturing about the miracoulous wonders of socialized industry. And it'd be downright heresy to those "anarchists" who belive people shouldn't have to provide for themselves when government could do it for them. (A very rare and complicated form of anarchist doctrine)

 

[Test_Subject]

That is to say : government meddling in said markets has added to, in all cases, and caused in most, disproportionate and unnecessary suffering on behalf of the customers of those markets,, and inefficiency of service along with degradation of quality in those markets and providers themselves.

Who would've thought?

How is that what you took from what I said?

The private insurance industry is the issue, both directly and indirectly. They're able to incur inflated costs which they then pass on to the consumer. The healthcare providers and suppliers are able to charge what they do because the insurance companies can afford to pay the costs up front, then pass that cost plus a mark-up on to consumers through their premiums, co-pays, deductibles etc. It's an immensely profitable system for everyone but the private citizens who foot the bill.

If the healthcare industry were collecting from people directly, they wouldn't be able to charge nearly what they do because nobody would be able to afford it. If the healthcare industry is run by the government directly, the costs of treatments and medications are dictated by the government, which is why you see lower costs across the board with socialized programs.

It's no coincidence that prices for treatments and medications in the US are astronomical compared to anywhere else in the world while the health insurance sector exists as an almost trillion dollar industry...

Edit: And I see that you deleted your comment as I was typing this. You're really not making a good case for the argument that your thread's title outlines...

 

[Hughinn]

That's definitely a consideration. Some of the metrics, such as lower 30-day mortality rates from heart attacks and strokes when compared to other member nations, potentially reflect a proficiency in treating obesity-related conditions.

But absolutely, fat people on average have more health issues and are harder to treat.

Whoa now. If you're proposing that it's each person's responsibility to look after their own health and well being, and that's an individuals responsibility to understand their own health and lifestyle in relation to the decisions they make concerning dietary, Healthcare and lifestyle choices, then you're spreading right wing propaganda.

You might want to delete that post before you re-read it and figure out you've contradicted yourself and the rest of the idiot brigade sees it and routes you out.

 

[Hughinn]

How is that what you took from what I said?

The private insurance industry is the issue, both directly and indirectly. They're able to incur inflated costs which they then pass on to the consumer. The healthcare providers and suppliers are able to charge what they do because the insurance companies can afford to pay the costs up front, then pass that cost plus a mark-up on to consumers through their premiums, co-pays, deductibles etc. It's an immensely profitable system for everyone but the private citizens who foot the bill.

If the healthcare industry were collecting from people directly, they wouldn't be able to charge nearly what they do because nobody would be able to afford it. If the healthcare industry is run by the government directly, the costs of treatments and medications are dictated by the government, which is why you see lower costs across the board with socialized programs.

It's no coincidence that prices for treatments and medications in the US are astronomical compared to anywhere else in the world while the health insurance sector exists as an almost trillion dollar industry...

Edit: And I see that you deleted your comment as I was typing this. You're really not making a good case for the argument that your thread's title outlines...

So, you didn't then just suggest that government meddling in the Healthcare industry made it worse?

Lol. That's exactly what you said.

Or, your suggesting that health insurance in no way correlates to the Healthcare industry? But that would be stupid.

So I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt

 

[Eman]

Maybe so mr. Fancy but ur a LIBERtarian. So only half of u wants to be offended. The other half is fiscally conservative

Probably the best part about being a libertarian is that I can be equally offended and disgusted by both the left and the right.

There's really nothing more satisfying than being in a mixed political group of friends just railing on the right and watching the smile fade from the liberals face when I turn to rail on them too... Just wait your turn, folks.. I'm not on either of your sides.

 

[Hughinn]

So, you didn't then just suggest that government meddling in the Healthcare industry made it worse? Shall we go back and re-read then? Ok I will.

Lol. That's exactly what you said.

Or, your suggesting that health insurance in no way correlates to the Healthcare industry? But that would be stupid.

So I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt

 

[Test_Subject]

Whoa now. If you're proposing that it's each person's responsibility to look after their own health and well being, and that's an individuals responsibility to understand their own health and lifestyle in relation to the decisions they make concerning dietary, Healthcare and lifestyle choices, then you're spreading right wing propaganda.

You might want to delete that post before you re-read it and figure out you've contradicted yourself and the rest of the idiot brigade sees it and routes you out.

So, you didn't then just suggest that government meddling in the Healthcare industry made it worse?

Lol. That's exactly what you said.

Or, your suggesting that health insurance in no way correlates to the Healthcare industry? But that would be stupid.

So I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt

You're such a try-hard. Just stop, man -- it's cringy.

The only thing that you've managed to prove thus far is that your reading comprehension needs some work.

 

[Hughinn]

Probably the best part about being a libertarian is that I can be equally offended and disgusted by both the left and the right.

There's really nothing more satisfying than being in a mixed political group of friends just railing on the right and watching the smile fade from the liberals face when I turn to rail on them too... Just wait your turn, folks.. I'm not on either of your sides.

Thanks for your candor sir.

 

[Hughinn]

You're such a try-hard. Just stop, man -- it's cringy.

The only thing that you've managed to prove thus far is that your reading comprehension needs some work.

Oh, so you've given up on arguing the issues then?

I see.

 

[Hughinn]

Oh, so you've given up on arguing the issues then?

I see. Weird, I just assumed you meant what you said.

But what do I know?

 

[Test_Subject]

Oh, so you've given up on arguing the issues then?

I see.

Yes, I've given up discussing the issue with you. You clearly lack the requisite skills to follow the conversation and form cogent responses.

That and you've resorted to quoting yourself which indicates, to me, that you're big mad.

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

Probably the best part about being a libertarian is that I can be equally offended and disgusted by both the left and the right.

There's really nothing more satisfying than being in a mixed political group of friends just railing on the right and watching the smile fade from the liberals face when I turn to rail on them too... Just wait your turn, folks.. I'm not on either of your sides.

Basic beliefs are the same and im libertarian on alot of things too as i get older. The idea that govt should be as small as possible and ppl should be as free from it as possible is a beautiful thing.

Modern Liberals dont believe in either. Funny the root word is liberty which means freedom. What a bunch of confused karens

 

[Uncle Ted]

I agree with a lot of that, but the data you posted needs to be adjusted for obesity which is extremely high in the US and greatly impacts mortality before, during and after treatment.

25 years spent working in hospital labs, I'd say the vast majority of inpatient care was for conditions caused by obesity. Six hundred pounders on ventilators. Ceiling hoists in most every room to move these massive blobs.

Obesity drastically increases work load. Everything is harder, starting IVs, constant blood draws, blood gases where you have to bury the needle to the hub and push hard to find a vein or artery. Moving the patient. With everyone having to wear PPE these days and back when I was working as well because most all of these patients have MRSA, you could be spending an hour with a patient performing a task that would normally take 5 minutes.

Code Blues on the obese are a nightmare. On skinny patients no problem at all, you're in and out real quick. Trying doing femoral draws on a patient that weighs 500+ pounds where it's almost impossible to map anatomy.

When I first started I was able to run a large lab by myself at night, handle all the emergencies and maintenance for analyzers and finish the morning drawing 30 inpatients. Now I suspect with PPE and obesity, you can forget that sort of work volume.

 

[Uncle Ted]

But what do I know?

You know a lot, but we're trying to get a few more ideas into your head.

Test Subject has nailed this problem, Flenser hit on valid points as well.

I will be the first to state that you are responsible for your own health. If you want to trash it, then go right ahead and expect no one to save you.

It seems to me Medicare is going to have to make massive cuts in the future as it simply unsustainable. Social Security can be somewhat sustained, but the point is to keep food on the table and a roof over your head, that's it for SS.

The tax burden of these seniors healthcare is going to be astronomical, we can't pay this, we shouldn't be expected to pay it either. So I would advise any senior to take very good care of themselves and study up on suicide methods when the pain is too much to take.

There's nothing wrong with dying. Nothing pissed me off more than when we ran codes on elderly that were long past their prime and brought them back so we could milk the system for 2 months with them on a vent.

The aversion people have towards death is largely out of humans separating themselves from nature. They look at nature and think it was ugly and scary and they don't realize we're all just carbon based life forms, from the snake on the ground to we the higher primates. Death is gonna happen no matter what, so get out there and live your life and stop holding onto this idea of living a long life. Death at 55 isn't unreasonable, that's plenty of time to see the world, learn a few things and pass away.

 

[Hughinn]

Yes, I've given up discussing the issue with you. You clearly lack the requisite skills to follow the conversation and form cogent responses.

That and you've resorted to quoting yourself which indicates, to me, that you're big mad.

Sadly, no logical mind cannot follow the numerous contradictions and fallacies associated with your bizarre quasi liberal sort of BS logic.

I believe, a sane man would have a better chance of charting the course of the celestial bodies with a pencil and scratch pad than understand that mess of fantasy and stupidity.

One can hope, maturity, along with testicular development could possibly, one day bring you into the reality of things. But who knows?

One can hope

 

[Hughinn]

You know a lot, but we're trying to get a few more ideas into your head.

Test Subject has nailed this problem, Flenser hit on valid points as well.

I will be the first to state that you are responsible for your own health. If you want to trash it, then go right ahead and expect no one to save you.

It seems to me Medicare is going to have to make massive cuts in the future as it simply unsustainable. Social Security can be somewhat sustained, but the point is to keep food on the table and a roof over your head, that's it for SS.

The tax burden of these seniors healthcare is going to be astronomical, we can't pay this, we shouldn't be expected to pay it either. So I would advise any senior to take very good care of themselves and study up on suicide methods when the pain is too much to take.

There's nothing wrong with dying. Nothing pissed me off more than when we ran codes on elderly that were long past their prime and brought them back so we could milk the system for 2 months with them on a vent.

The aversion people have towards death is largely out of humans separating themselves from nature. They look at nature and think it was ugly and scary and they don't realize we're all just carbon based life forms, from the snake on the ground to we the higher primates. Death is gonna happen no matter what, so get out there and live your life and stop holding onto this idea of living a long life. Death at 55 isn't unreasonable, that's plenty of time to see the world, learn a few things and pass away.

Basically, Healthcare, is life care.

And it's all finite.

Pouring money into it, by the truckload, isn't going to help people live longer, who refuse to take care of their own health. It's therefore not a money problem, as much as a living problem, and a problem of realistic expectations.

You've truly spoken truth.



So tell me, any of you idiots who want to. What the flook is socialized medicine supposed to fix, if that man spoke the truth? When we all know he did

 

[Hughinn]

Basic beliefs are the same and im libertarian on alot of things too as i get older. The idea that govt should be as small as possible and ppl should be as free from it as possible is a beautiful thing.

Modern Liberals dont believe in either. Funny the root word is liberty which means freedom. What a bunch of confused karens

I'm old enough to remember, when "liberals" distrusted authority and government. They hated "the man".

They were annoying as hell. Stank like patchouli oil and stayed a thorn of the side of any establishment.

God darn it i miss them.

Liberals today, represent the man. They propogate authoritarian government, and embody the very priveledge their predecessors railed against.

Millennials don't have a liberal group in that generation at all.

Maybe thats the problem? What mellinials call "liberal" today, is, by definition, what everyone called Marxist and communist decades ago. And are exactly what American "liberals" of the past so strongly opposed.

 

[NorthMich]

What a bullshit post. Jesus h christ